[susana4]

Sorry for my poor word choice. I just meant what if he just takes control and stops asking for ML.

Thanks for clarifying! If I understand correctly then that's sort of what happened last night, he asked at first, and then begged, and then just kept trying to get handsy and I kept pushing him away. It was like the push-pull dynamic...except actual pushing and pulling!!

[gogofo]

Just to add - he's not actually short on money. It's just that he *feels* like he is. So it's not a matter of having money troubles, it's just a matter of complaining. I think it's because he grew up in a family with a lot of money troubles (so much so they couldn't always put food on the table), so it's a scarcity mentality. I try to remind myself that and have compassion but I do get annoyed sometimes.

Your H sounds a lot like me, especially the more you post about it. I am the same way with money. I like to have it, but I am unhappy spending it especially on frivolous things.

I did not grow up struggling with money as you have described with your H but when I was a freshman in high school my father had a work accident that put him in a wheel chair and unable to work for 4 months. He was the owner of his own business and it really through the family through a loop. It was one of those times when a business is poised to turn from just making it to being paid off and making good money. Didn't happen. My family went 6 figures into debt without the income of my dad and then his insurance didn't want to cover his bills.

This really changed how I felt about money and the security it gave me. When I spend money it is usually on something big. I don't go and spend a little bit here and there all the time.

When I spend money I like it to have a meaning or a value. I get frustrated going out and buying drinks or buying fast food. It seems like a waste when I could have spent it on other things that could mean more to me.

One time my W got frustrated with me because I decided not to buy an insulated flannel shirt that was on sale for $8. I had one that was half beat up and 5 years old and I couldn't see if I was going to get $8 of value out of the new shirt since I only wear them when hunting. This decision took about 15 minutes and my W just shook her head in amazement.

I do the same as your husband when I spend money and then complain about it and then spend money the next week doing the same thing. I go out to lunch with some guys at work fairly regularly and then at the end of the month I see how much it costs me and I get upset.

My W would get frustrated, just like you do. She couldn't understand it. From her perspective the money was spent to share time with friends. From my perspective the money was wasted on cheap crappy food that was bought out of convenience.

I do not think your H will change. You may have some influence on his perspective and he may lighten up a bit (I did), but he will never fully change. This may be one of the things that is unique and unchangeable about your H that you will have to deal with.

I see your husband having the same issues with money. Wanting to spend it on things he perceives to have "value". He wants to not spend it because it gives him a sense of security. When he spends it he is not "happy" because he is worried if it is the "best" use of his money. It is not an easy feeling to have and unfortunately can take a lot of fun out of situations that could be great.

I have a brother that if he has $20 in his pocket, him and whoever is with him is going to have as much fun as possible while they enjoy spending the $20. I often envied this of him and know he would have a lot more fun with the money I make than I do.

The things my W did that got me to change my perspective a little was she always focused on the good times she or we or I had while spending the money. Most of the time those interactions and time spent with friends and family are worth way more than the amount of money spent. She didn't lecture me but talked about how she felt about having lunch with friends or nights out.

[susana4]

Thanks for the perspective, gogofo. I guess it is hard for me to understand so it's really interesting to hear what it feels like to be in that mindset. I know that it's just the way he is so I try not to let it upset me and one of my 180s is not criticising so I don't say anything any more about his money situation! I just try to validate - "oh wow, that sounds so hard." In the grand scheme of things, it is something I can accept. It could be a lot worse!

But I guess I just don't really think that much about money, so it's hard for me to understand his mentality. I am very systematic with money. I do a budget each month, some goes into the joint account, some into savings, some into my personal account for spending. The spending money I break down into money for each week, and if I run out I dip into my buffer (I always have a buffer!) or I don't go out. I don't mind going out with friends and them having dinner and me just getting a drink. For my H, he has a fear of missing out, so he is scared of missing social occasions and I don't think he could go and just have a drink while everyone else ate. That's what I don't get, and that's why I get annoyed when he complains, I think. Because I think - what are you complaining about? It's not like you were forced to spend that money! But then I try to remind myself to be compassionate and think about how it feels for him. I like the approach you mentioned of focusing on the good times and talking about how I feel having lunch or nights out rather than lecturing.

Gogofo, I have a question for you. One thing I did in the past, but I think was a mistake, was H was always complaining about spending so I tried to accommodate by changing plans. So for example, we used to have a date night every week. He used to complain a lot about how expensive it was, so I started looking for cheap activities. We found some really cool stuff! But to save money we started eating dinner from tupperware before going wherever we were headed for date night, rather than going to a restaurant. I thought this was a really good way to save money and H was happy. It was fun in the summer when we went and sat in a park and chatted. But in the winter it wasn't very nice, because we'd eat huddled on a street corner, quickly, or standing up waiting for the train. Once we even stood around a trash can eating! I've realised since BD but I think this wasn't very good for us. We were spending time together on date nights, but not really - because it always felt like we were rushing somewhere. Eating as quickly as we could in the cold, then running to catch the train to wherever we were going. We didn't really get to talk.
So anyway my question for you is this; do you think it is a good idea to accommodate money concerns like this? Or is it better to encourage the other person to spend money by focusing on the good times?

I have thought about what I would do if we reconciled (although I don't hold out much hope for that at the moment). I think it would be important to have date nights again where we could spend time talking and connecting, not eating quickly out of tupperware. One thought I had was putting money for date night in the joint account (rather than individual spending accounts), that way we'd have a set amount we could use each time and it would reduce stress. Anyway this is all so hypothetical it's silly so I probably shouldn't waste my time thinking about it! I just got on this train of thought.

[gogofo]

Hard to say how your husband would take it. I know my W and I would go out every weekend for a dinner date. After a while it just became dinner and stopped being special or date like. Where we live there are literally about 10 places to eat a decent dinner and only one or two are "upscale" for our community.

Having a picnic would be great and a lot of fun; quickly eating by a dumpster, not so much. I guess it all depends what the sacrifice is for. I would eat by a dumpster to attend a fun concert or have a special evening, but not in the name of saving money.

We stopped talking much and the dinners just became part of the routine.

I assume you are somewhere in a big city as you talk about taking the train. I would assume there are numerous places that could be an adventure to eat at that would not be too pricey.

I like the idea of having a date night account. For me it would take the stigma out of spending the money if it was already budgeted for.

I know I really enjoyed when my W would take me out on a date or pay for dinner. When we dated we used to take turns and it touched my heart. When money is so important to me, the fact that she would spend her money on me made me feel special. I don't believe in the man always paying for things, especially if they both work.

It is too bad your H does not like to cook. My XW and I both really enjoyed it and had more fun staying home and cooking than going out most of the time. We can cook and eat better things than we can buy in our community.

[susana4]

Yes, I am in London, there are a lot of restaurants to explore in all price ranges.

To be fair when we ate by the dumpster we were on the way to a special concert. We did do a lot of different activities on date night, we did something different every week. We kept a list of ideas and added to it all the time. A lot of them were mine. He said at BD he would miss our date nights most and all the fun and he said I was so good at always thinking of fun things to do and keeping the excitement alive. He cried a lot when he said that. We did a lot of different activities together each weekend as well. My DB coach was surprised we did so much together (she said a lot of couples drift apart from not doing things together but I guess it was the opposite in my case, we spent too much time together).

I'm feeling really sad now having thought about date nights, I miss those.

Feeling a really strong urge to run away again today.

[Tarheel]

Not all date nights need to involve dinner. Eat at home, then go out for dessert. Or plan a formal dinner once a month and keep the other dates simple.

There's a local website I used to look at based around spending less than $20 a date. A lot of the ideas involved stopping at multiple spots. So a free wine tasting at one spot, followed by a couple slices of pizza and a beer while watching a band at another spot. Food trucks, renting bikes, ice cream, local festivals, breakfast and a sunrise, etc...

[susana4]

Sorry, rant coming up... I know I am mind reading and thinking about stuff I shouldn't be and all that, but I really just needed to write this down and get it out, and my coach suggested journalling might help me process my feelings. And this afternoon I was feeling a lot of anger.

...

How can he?!

I feel so rejected for who I am. He's clearly still very attracted to me physically, which makes me feel like there's something wrong with my personality. Am I that horrible to live with?! But then he goes and says stuff like "I love living with you" and "you are the loveliest and kindest person I know". So if I am so lovely and kind and great to live with, and we had so much fun together on date nights etc. why the f*** can't we be together? I know I made mistakes and there are things I needed to fix, but I don't feel like anything I did was that awful, not enough to be worth throwing our M away over.

Why the f*** does he want to keep doing stuff together, going out for dinner and making food together? Why does he keep doing my laundry, and laughing with me, and caring when I get hurt and wanting to hear about me? Why does he think about me when he's on vacation? Why???

I just feel like so many of the "problems" he brought up are things he would face in any R. He wasn't happy when we argued -- well who is?! He says we argued too much but I think we just didn't learn how to communicate well. We spent too much time together - well that's something that could have been negotiated and discussed. And he gave up too many of his hobbies/activities for me - that's his own d@mn fault, he should have kept them up, and I don't see what that has to do with me. He said he's felt in every R he's had that he lost himself and no longer felt like himself (although he also said our R was the first one where he didn't lie about who he was, and pretend to like things he didn't like - but he did give up some activities). But then how can he not see that's a problem in HIM, not a problem with us, and that will just repeat itself with any future R he has?!

I'm just so angry. I'm working on cleaning up my side of the street but it just doesn't seem that dirty. It just feels like he veered off the road for no apparent reason, or because there was a tiny bump.

I just don't get how he seemed so certain, and so happy for our entire M. I had my moments of questioning 'is this right' and 'should we be together' and he never had ANY. Then all of the sudden he's decided he doesn't want to be together?!

And what is wrong with me that I know how to re-attract him physically, but not in any other way? Why can't I work out how to do it in other ways? And why the f*** do I have such a strong desire to run away, what's wrong with me? That's exactly what I'm condemning him for!

[susana4]

Not all date nights need to involve dinner. Eat at home, then go out for dessert. Or plan a formal dinner once a month and keep the other dates simple.

There's a local website I used to look at based around spending less than $20 a date. A lot of the ideas involved stopping at multiple spots. So a free wine tasting at one spot, followed by a couple slices of pizza and a beer while watching a band at another spot. Food trucks, renting bikes, ice cream, local festivals, breakfast and a sunrise, etc...

Those are all great ideas and I like the sound of that website! It does seem easier to me at least to plan inexpensive date nights (or any date nights) in the summer when the weather is good!

[Cadet]

Sorry, rant coming up... I know I am mind reading and thinking about stuff I shouldn't be and all that, but I really just needed to write this down and get it out, and my coach suggested journalling might help me process my feelings. And this afternoon I was feeling a lot of anger.

...

How can he?!

I feel so rejected for who I am. He's clearly still very attracted to me physically, which makes me feel like there's something wrong with my personality. Am I that horrible to live with?! But then he goes and says stuff like "I love living with you" and "you are the loveliest and kindest person I know". So if I am so lovely and kind and great to live with, and we had so much fun together on date nights etc. why the f*** can't we be together? I know I made mistakes and there are things I needed to fix, but I don't feel like anything I did was that awful, not enough to be worth throwing our M away over.

Why the f*** does he want to keep doing stuff together, going out for dinner and making food together? Why does he keep doing my laundry, and laughing with me, and caring when I get hurt and wanting to hear about me? Why does he think about me when he's on vacation? Why???

I just feel like so many of the "problems" he brought up are things he would face in any R. He wasn't happy when we argued -- well who is?! He says we argued too much but I think we just didn't learn how to communicate well. We spent too much time together - well that's something that could have been negotiated and discussed. And he gave up too many of his hobbies/activities for me - that's his own d@mn fault, he should have kept them up, and I don't see what that has to do with me. He said he's felt in every R he's had that he lost himself and no longer felt like himself (although he also said our R was the first one where he didn't lie about who he was, and pretend to like things he didn't like - but he did give up some activities). But then how can he not see that's a problem in HIM, not a problem with us, and that will just repeat itself with any future R he has?!

I'm just so angry. I'm working on cleaning up my side of the street but it just doesn't seem that dirty. It just feels like he veered off the road for no apparent reason, or because there was a tiny bump.

I just don't get how he seemed so certain, and so happy for our entire M. I had my moments of questioning 'is this right' and 'should we be together' and he never had ANY. Then all of the sudden he's decided he doesn't want to be together?!

And what is wrong with me that I know how to re-attract him physically, but not in any other way? Why can't I work out how to do it in other ways? And why the f*** do I have such a strong desire to run away, what's wrong with me? That's exactly what I'm condemning him for!

NOPE this is not about YOU.

It is all on HIM.

You didnt break him and cant fix him.

So clean up your side of the street and keep moving forward,
nothing else I can say.

[Tarheel]

In regards to your rant...I apologize because I probably haven't read every post of yours, but when was the last time H actually said he didn't want to be with you since BD? I don't recall any that you've posted about.

I know it's difficult to see when you're in the midst of the situation, but from an outsiders POV, things appear to be working in your favor. You two are physical, H comments you on your appearance, asks you out for pizza....stick with what you're doing and it's hard for me not to envision things working out for the best.

What you need to be patient with is something that you've already realized, but he hasn't- that he has his own issues to work through. He needs to realize, on his own timeline, that he needs to work on himself as well. I struggled with that early on too- 'if only W would wake up..' It's easy for those of us working on ourselves and getting feedback from this board to see through the fog. For the WAW/WAH, their process may take longer to work through. So all you can do is to focus on yourself and hope that H decides to do the same.