This need not be the end.

[25yearsmlc]

Hi 25years, I do appreciate your input, thanks for stopping by.

I know what you mean about the consent agreement being the only way. It's ridiculous. From what I've been told by L and what I've also looked at online, it's true. The options I have are;

1. We have an unofficial document drawn up by a L, agree on things but it will almost certainly not hold up in court if things change.
2. We have a separation agreement drawn up, agree on things but W CAN go to the courts at a later date & request changes.
3. We have the consent agreement drawn up by a L, and once agreed by the courts, this is final. It also counts for any claims made AFTER D. I didn't know that even once you're D, it is actually possible to stake a claim on any future windfalls...inheritance, lottery wins etc. The only way to have a consent agreement drawn up is to be in the process of D (you need the decree nisi to do it).

I don't want to D at all, I don't even want to be S! All I want to do is go home and be with my family again.

2 comments re the above^^. As to the legal options, I want to summarize as briefly as I can, TO SEE if this is an accurate recap And to maybe make it a little simpler. Okay?

You seem to be saying that - unless you file for divorce AND it's finalized, (i.e. "blessed" by the judge in court), that things can change.

Which is essentially the same everywhere in the west.

Here In America, most things re children can be modified until they are no longer children. That is b/c a child's needs can change (the child can become disabled, or need additional help in school, for instance).

But property division agreements here, once agreed upon AND approved by the courts, are finalized when they are "finalized." So is the divorce itself. That cannot be undone.

In the UK?? I am not qualified to comment on the pros and cons of a separation in the UK. I only know your common law forms the basis of ours, and that 49 states use it as ours, (Louisiana is the odd duck and only state of 50, that goes the way of the Napoleonic Code).

However, what's really being discussed by your wife, I BELIEVE, is a reasonable suggestion about how to reduce costs, mostly by you two attempting to reach an out of court property agreement.

Nothing is inherently bad or wrong about ^^ that in itself, especially since she has not suggested anything insanely one sided or mean spirited. It's just really painful. You are presently unable to Not take it personally, which makes all of this much harder. If this were an arms length transaction like most business deals, you'd be better able to review the terms objectively, obviously.

But don't dismiss it b/c you are taking it personally; work on NOT taking it so personally. Again, she is not being mean spirited about any of this thus far, so remind yourself that as badly as you feel, this really could be a lot worse.

I won't pretend to know of any "friendly" divorces. But I definitely know of some truly horrific unfair divorces.

The 2 family members I have, who divorced and then remarried their spouses a few years later, had hurt feelings and wounded egos but I don't recall a lot of fighting over the pots and pans and cars...just really sad partings.


Secondly, I know you don't want this. That is abundantly clear.

But as Starsky has said in the past, and what I also believe, is that you are now in a "Damage Control" mode. Time to Cut your losses.

You must do your best to protect yourself AND your assets, which is another way of protecting your children, btw.

I'm unclear about the custody. Are you NOT going to have your d's with you? But you will have the boys? Yes, I know boys are male and girls are female but won't they feel the other parent has given them away?

FWIW, I think the father daughter relationship is very underrated in our world. Most girls see their dads as representing the "outside world" to them, so that their r with their dad represents how they'll be treated by it. Versus the nurturing mother in the home, where it's safe...

Is the outside world an exciting, adventure, and a welcoming place, or is it an unknowable mystery, with uncommunicative or critical people sitting in judgment of them?

(I don't say that to imply anything, but to paraphrase a book I read ).

As much as you can, you must make it clear to each child, that they are precious to you, and so is time spent with them. I will leave it at that b/c I don't want to belabor a point or make you feel worse. I just need to encourage you as much as possible to NOT believe that "a girl needs a mom and not much else" b/c that is not true.



This is why I'm in such emotional turmoil with the whole sitch now and why I said some of the things I did to W.

When I asked my W outright as to how she saw this going in her mind, she said that she thought she could get her £10k, set up a home with it and that we would D later when we could afford to (she talked about online D's which are significantly cheaper).
She said she hadn't thought about the other financial matters (loans, Credit cards etc).

When I said that from the advice I'd had, me D'ing her would be the only way to completely protect myself legally, I asked her if that was what she wanted....to definitely D. She said "I think so, yes". Because she said "I think so", there's still a small part of me that thinks that if I could trust her enough to sign a separation agreement and not D yet, I would do that.
If it were the W I knew asking me of that level of trust, I wouldn't even think about it. She IS different now though and she's not thinking about me at all. It's a valid concern.

The benefit of a separation agreement is that we don't D yet and she could live as she wants to (w/o me) in her own place.

So you mean to say that a LS in your country would NOT make any difference in the logistics or finances? Other than religious or emotional reasons, it sounds as if there are no other factors, and thus, you'd only be prolonging your financial uncertainty with a Legal Separation.

Correct?

As to her replying "I think so"... I would read almost nothing into that. It has to be the 20th (??_ time you have asked her if she is sure. Her Saying "I'm 100% POSITIVE!!" might almost sound cruel to say, at this point...

FTR, I don't think most people are "positive" about getting a divorce, but they do it anyhow. They figure they'll see how it feels later on, but they are in pain or emotional discomfort and think a divorce is their only answer.

They do not believe things can change. So, when they change it themselves, and then see that the other person IS in fact changing and becoming different, that's the only way THEY can learn this lesson. Sometimes it's too late to recon, but sometimes it's not.

None of us can tell you how to OR IF you can win her back. But we know one thing.

We know that

No WAS returns to a marriage they left, UNLESS

they believe the marriage can be better/different than before.

Only time apart and change in YOU, can prove that to her...(ask yourself how you are behaving differently, than before, to see the areas you may wish to work on).

And please,

don't worry today, about how you will feel toward her tomorrow.

Just get back to YOU.


Maybe she needs to do that away from the marital home to really assess if she does want to D? If she decided not to and to R with me, I'd be happy to right off the money, it's not even about that.

The worrying part is that if she DOES decide she wants to D, she could then go to the courts and say she wants to change the agreement and it'll go into a big legal battle where ultimately, she's entitled to more and would get probably get it.
I could still lose everything because I couldn't afford to give her any more without selling my house.

I assume a legal sep agreement would be A factor to consider in a Div agreement but Not THE ONLY factor.

(Many legal Sep agreements here are simply "copy & pasted" to fit the final Div so that the LS agreement becomes the final Div settlement as well).

But it is not conclusively THE factor, in a final divorce.

So if YOU want an end to "financial ambiguity" and to eliminate risk, the best or only way for that to happen is to divorce her. Correct?

All I am saying is that this^^ means to me, that

a Sep agreement you two reach, IF IT is a good one for you, MIGHT help you later but it might not.

However It cannot hurt you financially --b/c they are not going to "punish" you for having an agreement she suggested. Worst case scenario, they might just ignore it.

Okay? If so, then that's that. Up to you.


At the moment, I'm starting to wonder if I should go with the separation agreement option and take the risk.
My head is saying not to, D her and move on. My heart is saying that if I don't want to file, don't file.

The business reasons are not that relevant in my opinion. This seems more about your crossroads of when to move on and when to keep standing.

Again, up to you.


The problem with seeing it as D'ing for financial reasons is that to W, it's not that. She's told me she doesn't love me enough to be M to me now and that this is what she thinks is best for her. I'm aware that this may not always be the case.
It's really ME that's thinking about the financial aspect. I have to.


You are sort of going in circles and overcomplicating this, I believe. Of course "this may not always be the case" and there is ambiguity INSIDE a marriage too, or none of us would have ever landed here. There are never any guarantees.

No offense meant, okay? But let's Keep it simple b/c in some ways, it is simple.

No, it's absolutely NOT easy, but it's also not "mathematically complex"...

I think it's more a case that I feel more entitled to our assets than as opposed to feeling I'm more entitled to more of her life. Morally if not legally. All I want is to try to work things out.

I'd made real progress in my PMA and was feeling so much better when W agreed to have dinner with me. I DID go with no expectations, all I wanted was to spend some time with W and not to have to talk about the sitch at all which we'd agreed on in advance. When she made me this offer, it knocked me back so much. Rather than the pleasant evening it should have been, it turned into the start of the end. I'm right back where I started now, trying my best to live the way I should as per DB'ing (and which helped me before) but now I look at the books and their titles differently. How can I remedy a D, or bust one...that I'm talking about initiating!!?


Every now and then, it's the only way to...

I do blame her for the fact that she's now wanting to split up for good. I don't blame her entirely for the breakdown of the R, I certainly played my part in that. It's me wanting to fight for this, not me wanting to take some cash and split though.


I wont be asking W any questions about the R again. I had to say those things to her because at the moment, we're on a knife edge and things could go either way as far as D'ing now or later. I was only trying to make sure that this is what she wants because it's such a big thing to undertake. 21 years of marriage and our life together will be over (it is already) and I was just trying to see if she really wanted to go all the way on it.

I know this^^. I know you believe a divorce is "a big mistake" and that she "could go either way".

I'm telling you is that IF there is a chance for her to reconsider - it will NOT be aided by you requesting it, and you have requested it several times. I actually believe that lessens the chances you have. I think it literally hurts your cause.


When I asked her if she agreed that we'd had a good life together, it wasn't to reassure me. I know we have and in my mind, the good times far outweigh the bad. This is clearly not the case for W or she wouldn't be doing this. She only sees the last year or so rather than the whole M and forgets about all the good times. I just wanted her to think about it more.

You are suppressing any possible resurfacing of good memories, by telling her to "think about it more". I don't know how else to say this.

If we do go through with this offer (via any of the options above), relatively speaking, it IS still the next best thing and I will be all of the things you mentioned in your post. Whether I feel lucky or not is a different matter.

So, what I need to decide now is which way I want to go on this. Do I trust her or not? I don't know right now.

I don't see that as the question. I see the money question as being "if we have to change any part of this, it will cost more. If not, it'll save some money."

And the emotional question is "Do I file for a D that I don't want?" AND "How, if at all, could that affect any chance for a later recon?"

I do need to get back to basics on this. I need to do what works I know.


Yes to THIS^^^ and the rest of what you wrote (below) is more delaying and hand wringing and trying to manipulate outcomes that you cannot effect....and over thinking things.

Keep it boiled down to the truths and risks you KNOW of, and accept that there is simply NO risk free way thru this.

And keep on keeping on...you will get to the other side, IN TIME.





It's just that it worked before because I didn't have thoughts of re-mortgaging and divorce running through my mind.

I do really appreciate you coming by my thread and your continued support and advice. I'll be sure to post on what I decide to do.

If anyone has any thoughts on this, I'd welcome them.

Barry.