Dave, You know how my H described it? He said that he wanted me to "help" him get sexual. Meaning, he did not want me to pressure him, or do it for him, or 'set the stage' too much (creates pressure). He just wanted me to sortof coax it out of him, allow him to come out of his shell as naturally as possible.
So I would set the stage and then back down and let him take it from there. Believe me, there were MANY nights when he did not take it from there. But there were many nights when he did. So overall it was a win for me.
I STILL have to help him out. He still cannot be aggressive with his sexuality. This is a bone of contention with me but since everything else is really good (frequency, quality, etc) I am thinking that I will have to live with it.
So I hope this was clear in what I meant. Not to back off entirely, but to be very subtle and think more along the lines of "helping" her rather than enabling her, cause you really can't do it for her.
Quote: Originally posted by Dave36: My sense is that waiting, in my case 14 years in an autonomous marriage where we don't communicate like a "loving" couple will lead our D6 to doomed relationships. Actually, my W is a victim of a D when she was 17 which contributed to her issues.
Yes, I have considered that as well. Sad fact is that by remaining together, we may NOT be teaching our kids very good things about marriage. However...
Quote: Originally posted by Dave36: Also, I can't afford to D. There's not enough in our budget to afford a place for me to sleep except under an overpass.
There's that to consider as well. W has been a stay-at-home mom for over 20 years. If it becomes apparent that our sitch is not going to improve enough to save our marriage, I plan to give her a couple years to get a job and save some money. Meantime we'll also be paying down debt. My fervent hope is that I will NOT have to support her for the rest of my life...
Plus, by then, only one child will be under-age, so less child support for fewer years. Does that sound cold? I hope not...
God, I'm so depressed and feeling completely hopeless. Thank goodness I was able to be undetected in my feelings. W and I talked for about 5 mins tonight and it was loving and upbeat, but I didn't get bothered until much later. I will apologize now if I make some of you angry with this post and will understand if you never want to respond. Technically, I shouldn't be journaling in public but it is sometimes good because I get my ass kicked by Corri for being an idiot. Maybe someday, this will help somebody else.
1. HER MIND IS IN IT...HER HEART ISN'T I might have mentioned how I used to never go to bed with W. I'm a notorious night-owl and typically like to get to sleep around 2 am. and wake up at 8:30. I work out of my house so it doesn't really matter. But in the past few months, I have made a commitment to myself to be in the bed with her as she falls asleep. I also made a commitment to her that I wouldn't expect sex at night (unless it was planned) and that she would be completely in control of where our cuddling leads. I agreed not to make a stink about it either. So now, guess what...she falls asleep on the sofa at 9 pm. I asked her if this sudden urge to "crash" is possibly a defense mechanism. She assured me that it wasn't but her "eyes" indicated that it was a possibility. I'm sure this will require patience. Once again, I'm sure I need to chill out and be patient. But I'm really on the verge of giving up.
2. SHE WANTS THE LIST AGAIN I asked if she feels paranoid about living up to my expectations. She said she's very paranoid but recognizes this as her problem to work on...not mine, but she still wants a list know what the expectations are. HELP ME SOMEBODY WITH THIS!!!! I'm still very uncertain about this. I really want sex every few days and affectionate, sexual touching in between those days. A list will be like a bomb. She will know what my expectations are but I will also be setting us/her up for certain failure....I think.
3. I'M READING / THINKING WAY TOO MUCH When I read all the other LD women, I get very hopeless because it shows that "motivated" LDWs have trouble...to the point of coming here! When I read book, I get hopeless because they all claim to work. Every book I read talks about "successful comples". This now completely depresses me because I no longer believe it...the testimonials are always written with a different font so that the casual reader at the bookstore will get excited and buy the damn book. A book I have has a 28 day program where sex is encouraged almost every day with various things to make it fun. The whole back half is filled with success stories. I wonder how many felt an obligation to make it work because of the pressure to not let the author/publisher down. They hired a pulitzer prize winning photographer to shoot a "sad" before photo of the couples before they embarked on the program. Of course they will succeed, they want the "happy ending" photo. How many of these folks permanently renewed their love because of this book? I just need to stop reading but somehow my W needs to start acting like these LDW in here and do a little research of her own.
Sometimes I just want to W go into a soundproof room with divorced woman and have the woman completely unleash on her. Tell her how completely idiotic she is being for not putting 110% into this.
4. I THINK I SCREWED UP I tricked myself into feeling "in love" with her so that all my efforts would come naturally. Sure, she thinks I'm the cat's meow right now. She feels happier than ever now. But in reality, the idea of fixing her LD state a few months ago at a point when I was ED was her idea first. I should have kept cool and somewhat ED but the idea of renewed love lit me on fire. Maybe this was her reason for extinguishing her desire in the first place...I'm too "lovey". I'm an idiot for falling for the bait.
5. CONFLICTING MESSAGES I'm getting conflicting messages..."don't pressure her, but go to therapy". WTF....even if I get therapy for myself...that's pressure on her because it indicates that something is seriously wrong. Or..."real progress happens when work on yourself, but ask W to read (a book)...actually buy 2 copies so you can read it together, then buy a third copy for a friend."
6. TO REVERT OR NOT TO REVERT I really might just quit this effort and (try to) go back to the old routine. I was considering hiring a cycling coach to work with me this season but I put my racing ambitions on hold because the training would draw me away from the family. I was thinking that I should make the "ssm repair" a priority but keep riding and do an occasional race. Instead, maybe I need to hire this guy and just forget about all this. She was completely happy with our situation last year and seems to consider this "new life" as gravy. Maybe I'm not creating a paradise for her with this. I wanted to earmark all my fun money towards the M too. She says she loves the "new me" but maybe it's coming with a boatload of pressure too. Maybe the key is to eliminate the pressure somehow. But HOW? I'm not asking her to do anything (anymore). She's obviously associating my actions with a big message that she needs to work on her LD issues. (Crap...I'm starting to make sense...I was hoping that I could just have an angry outburst tonight, then go to sleep, but crap, I'm getting that damn insight stuff again. My original version of this post had me screaming up a storm.) Maybe I should just be more helpful around the house and leave it at that.
7. THIS IS A BAD ONE I'm now asking myself a very hard question...why do I love someone I'm completely opposite of. I like the outdoors, day trips, sunshine, physical activity. She likes staying home all weekend, eating in, no sun, no physical activity. I set goals and achieve them. She has never set a goal, but whines about not achieving anything. Her kindness and niceness have made up for all of these things. Her lack of passion and conflict has made our house extremely peaceful. She runs the house better than anyone I've ever met and she's a great mother. I should consider myself lucky for these good things...but I would trade most of these attributes in for a passionate love-life. I used to take so much crap from an employer simply because I liked the fact that they provided free juice and soda, had no dress code, and would occasionally throw me a perk. Work should simply be about the big things like money and hours. Why is it that I choose to stay with someone when I'm essentially being underpaid and overworked? At this point it is strictly out of duty as a father, peer pressure, fear of the uncertainty, guilt, lack of money to afford a D. In the WAW examples, the W nags, then stops, then the H thinks everything is great...then bam, the W leaves. I'm seeing this possibility because I think my "effort" is essentially the same as "nagging" because she is interpreting it as "pressure" to do something.
This aspect is killing me...I'm trying to reconnect with W only to find out that she's not someone I should be interested in. This effort might have been a mistake. Only time will tell. Maybe I need to spend my cycling coach money on getting my dick removed.
Ok, there it is...I've officially made myself look completely insane. How can I go from a "bliss" last friday night to complete depression on Monday. As my fuel tank goes down, my anger and stress go way up. I have never raised my voice at my W, actually we've never fought in 10 years of marriage, but now I just want to unleash a holy hailstorm of angry words in her direction and have her feel the pain inside me. But if I did, I would then have to apologize, admit that I'm a dickhead for getting out of control and take responsibility. Because after all...this is obviously all my fault.
This is a cycle, that us HD go through. I know I have gone through it about 30 times since my W and I have come back together. I really think it is a process that you need to be PATIENT with. Even if this doesn't work out like you stated above you are making yourself a better person and that is always a good thing. You already know this but keep doing the things that you know are working and get rid of the rest of that stuff.
Quote: This aspect is killing me...I'm trying to reconnect with W only to find out that she's not someone I should be interested in. This effort might have been a mistake. Only time will tell.
The effort is NOT a mistake. I know it feels like it because of the appearant fruitlessness of the journey. Yes, it would have been easier to not bother, but then you would have guarenteed misery and either blindly suffered for another decade or at some point cracked and became a total jerk destroyed your family and hurt your children, and blindsided your wife. AND YOU would BE TOTALLY in the WRONG, even though your hurt feelings are valid, and left with lots of "what if's" unanswered. What you get from the Journey,
1# much important self knowlege, #2 Precious comunications skills that are and will continue to enhance all of your relationships, especially those with your children. #3 A much better understanding of women and the very real differences in how we think, process, understand things #4 You have become a much more incredible, insightful, wonderful, patient, loving man. You have grown in empathy and numerous other ways. #5 Your experiences and sharing help many other people. I would much rather you NOT have all this pain, however you allow your pain to teach, which gives meaning and value to it. #6 You have successfully communicated to your wife that this issue is important. Even if things don't work out this is so very worthwhile. #7 peace of mind in knowing that you literally turned over every leaf, worked extremely hard, changed bad habits, behaviors, attitudes. (it doesn't make the sitch less sad, but does eliminate the reasonable guilt of should have tried harder, maybes and what ifs) Integrity, you have lots. #8 if things don't work, you will know for certain that the differences truely were irriconcialable, not a lack of effort, not a lack of communication, not lazyness, not stupidity. (doesn't make things better, but otherwise you might be those things) #9 You are trustworthy, dependable, teachable, willing. A man of worth. #10 You have no idea what the future will bring and how the lessons learned on this journey will be incrediblly valuable. #11 You've gotten to experience much much more joy with your wife. Memories to love and treasure. Don't discount them.
I was reading your post and nodding my head the whole time (at least until the 'cut my dick off' part), because, as Lee said, we've all been through this cycle. And that's what it is, a cycle. The key to surviving is to be patient and loving, yet, as Corri often says, to set clear boundaries. Do whatever you are doing to improve yourself, not to try to change her. Let her know what you need/want, but don't expect her to necessarily do anything about it...at least not right away. I know, easy to say, but hard to carry out.
Pressure. LDs see pressure in the most inane things. A sigh. A look. A clearing of the throat. A credit card receipt from Bob's House o' Bondage for a set of handcuffs, a leather mask, and a cattle prod. Don't drive yourself crazy thinking about what may or may not cause them pressure. Just be patient and loving and confident.
The list? I think your list was great, but I wouldn't give it to her. If you give her any list, I'd keep it short and general and ambiguous. And remember, anything you commit to paper can and will be used against you.
As for cutting off your weenie, I'd advise against it. Cutting off your balls may help, however.
Hairdog, you crack me up I was much too serious after my long post.
Quote: A credit card receipt from Bob's House o' Bondage for a set of handcuffs, a leather mask, and a cattle prod.
ooooooh honey, all that for me? You... you.. shouldn't have
Seriously, Dave about the list keep it very simple. One thing thats helped me tons since I'm touch, we aim for 30 min of snuggle cuddle time a night. Thats our baseline and goal, but it isn't set in stone some days are missed, sometimes its 10 min. Most of it's naked together time, but its spent more in massage with no expectations except that we touch, mostly he touches me and that we are together uninterupted. This is probably the single most thing thats kept me from becoming a WAW. That and him brushing, braiding and playing with my hair. Maybe she can come up with a list of non sexual touch she can to more regularly that will fill your love tank. I know nothing beats hot passionate sex, but you need something to help keep you saner. Scalp massage. You naked, her dressed - massage - objective muscle count, game of name and touch that muscle or bone? foot rub? just a few thoughts. Also I think 2 compliments, when she gets your attention a day is more than reasonable. (of course I'm still trying for this one) Can she make you a list of all the things she loves about you that you could then read often to help yourself feel loved?
Dave, Read "Manhood" by Steve Biddulph (an "Oh my God, that's me" on every page) then go cycling to win. If what he says is true you will return from your break as a revitalised "Wild Man of the Woods" and she will be all over you. SD
I was much too serious after my long post.
honey, all that for me? 
You... you.. shouldn't have