Ok, SuperDave has definately beat me to this but I just decided to start journaling here. I don't really care if anyone reads it, but it might be helpful to some. A little wierd that it's in public but I'm on 5 different computers throughout the day and this is convenient and it actually might help others...plus the occasional feedback.
For new members just tuning in, I'll provide a little backgrond... I'm a HD 36 yr. old, living in a major metro area with my LDW and D6. Married 10 years and things slowed down dramatically after marriage. For various reasons, I rationalized it away as an insignificant issue that I should ignore because every other aspect of my homelife was seemingly perfect except this one thing. Plus I assumed that I was a big dork because women never noticed me. But, in the last few months, it's been insane...I've been getting the flirty vibe from women everywhere. This made me realize how good it feels to be wanted but I didn't want to be with anyone else but my W. We have a very peaceful household where we put civility first so things never get too heated...just a little dramatic occasionally.
So, I've read SSM and gave it to W to read. I've been posting here for the past few weeks and have made some good progress and think I'm using a good roadmap. Hopefully, this will be helpful to some. I promise that there will be some colorful rantings, humor, and odd metaphors as I plan to write "whatever"
Enjoy, but feel free to cut in and give me crap if it sounds like I'm off track.
This journal is somewhat incomplete because of 2 weeks worth of posts I've made, but here goes.
First of all, if you own a mac and use Safari, it has built in spell checking in the form fields...just discovered this. Very cool.
Afternoon So today, W was remodeling the kitchen for the 8th and last day. So I went to the local spa and bought a certificate for a manicure-pedicure so that she would get the ache rubbed out of her hands and feel like a girl again. I gave it to her and let her know how I appreciated her hard work and this in no way had any strings attached. I also dropped some money I saved on a big tv. In the past, I would never indulge in spending money on something that unhealthy, but she explained to me that she really enjoys TV time at the end of the day to wind down. I thought we would both enjoy it. The surprises went over well. But here's the problem with doing "expert-level" gestures...they set you up to want "expert-level" reciprocation. She didn't make good eye contact with me tonight and seemed distant by ignoring me when I sat close to her...basically she was tired and I knew it but she also made a reference to wanting to keep working on the house. This, in combination with the non-verbals, made me think that her priorities were in the wrong place and a hoplessness starting trickling in. Especially after I felt like we had made some good progress in a few areas.
At bedtime, she could see that I was clearly "bothered" looking. She kept pushing me to explain despite me telling her that it was probably just crazy. But her persistence led me to explain my hurt and frustration. For those who follow my posts, this will sound like a violation of one of my main principles of staying cool. For those new here, keep reading. I'll post them in the next post.
After talking a bit and explaining my feelings, I calmed down and we had a good talk again. I asked her if she had any suggestions of how I should handle situations like this. Her reply was nice....she said that when our D6 is angry, that she will voluntarily take a time-out or ask for a hug. I concluded that those were good ideas but it's also nice to share a little talking time together. While buying a TV is sort of a 180 for me, I still hate loving it.
Dave36, I hope you find keeping a diary as helpful as I do. I have never been one to write down my thoughts etc. before but I am finding this quite therapeutic especially when I can’t sleep at night. Even better, you get encouragement from the rest of the guys who are all in exactly the same boat. SD
Quote: when our D6 is angry, that she will voluntarily take a time-out or ask for a hug
Well, as for asking for a hug, I don't recommend it. Just give one, and don't expect reciprocation.
Also, I see some inconsistency in giving her a spa certificate and a TV with "no strings attached" and then getting upset because you didn't get "expert level" reciprocation. Hey, I'm not criticizing...I do the exact same thing. You and I have to stop doing this. Just give for the joy of giving...just for how it makes you feel at the time. Don't expect anything, or you're setting yourself up for disappointment.
Or, just drop all pretense and say, "Honey, I have in this envelope a spa certificate, and, in the back of the van is a brand new COLOR TV! All you have to do to have these fantastic items, which, by the way, have a retail value of over FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS, is agree to have sex with me and give an award winning performance of faking passionate desire, and fawning gratefulness. So the choice is, do you keep your principles, or give them up for these fantastic prizes chosen especially for you!"
I think you mentioned this somewhere, but I am unclear. Did you say your wife works outside the home or not? Is she full-time or part-time?
Regardless, here is something for you to think about, though I may be way off base here. Your wife is putting her heart and soul into redecorating -- that's what we girls do with our houses. It 'jazzes' us, even though we get bone tired doing it.
I think your gifts were incredibly thoughtful and I do not think you should feel any remorse whatsoever in doing such things. You did them with genuine, honest feeling, and you kept your expectations under wraps as much as you were able. I think you should feel very good about yourself and your efforts. That was a very cool and thoughtful thing to do and I don't think you should let anyone spoil that for you. Give yourself a great big "10."
I think the problem with this scenario is not you or your expectations at all; I think the problem going on is with your wife, and I think you missed it. Not making eye contact is a sure sign of something going on inside of her that she is not comfortable expressing. That she was a bit nervous sitting next to you while watching your new TV says to me that she has some inner turmoil going on.
Let me throw this out at you and see what you think. Since you say there are similarities between your wife and I, I'll throw out my interpretation from a personal point-of-view. I know this isn't about me, so that's why I said I could be way off base here.
It could be that your wife is very used to be a 'strong' woman, doing for herself and rarely, if ever, asking for help. She probably has a huge measure of satisfaction knowing she has done something all on her own. She knows she needs help, but if she accepts it, then she cannot look at a project and say, "look what I did" and find a measure of pride in it. So she works herself to the bone, gets herself really, really tired, and sets herself for a crash and burn scenario like the one you two had last night.
She probably very much appreciated your gifts and was probably overwhelmed by them, has absolutely NO IDEA how to accept thanks and appreciation gracefully, and keeps that all inside. She didn't want to spoil the joy you obviously had in giving these gifts, so she sat down to enjoy them with you. She knew inside that she should show to you physical signs of appreciation because she knows you would have enjoyed that very much, yet feels guilty because she doesn't feel like doing that -- she wants to get up and keep on working because she has so much more 'to do.' She probably immerses herself in her projects, lives in her own little world, and doing so allows her to push those 'guilty feelings' aside. But she cannot do that in good conscience unless you TELL her it's okay, go finish your projects. So she sits there and feels agaitated and torn. She wants you to 'let her off the hook,' and you don't. Resentment is building in her...
And there you sit picking up on all of this and you start to think you've done something wrong. You now become bothered, and rather than this being HER problem, she begins pushing you to reveal your feelings so it can now become YOUR problem. And you took the bait, hook, line and sinker.
Do I think she did this on purpose? Absolutely not. I don't think she even realizes she is doing such a thing. But when someone becomes 'angry,' well, THAT is the person with the obvious problem, right? You both, together, moved the focus off of her, and on to you, and now, she is 'off the hook.'
You were feeling hurt and you had every right to. I bet you were feeling really confused, too, because you had no idea what the hell was wrong!! You assumed it was you, but it wasn't, do you see? It was her, but you took the fall.
You must stop doing this. This is part of setting boundaries. It's okay to feel hurt, you are allowed to express those feelings because they are YOUR feelings. You and your wife have created 'roles' for yourselves, and the fight you had at the end of the night put both of you in the roles you were comfortable playing. You have 'a problem' and she is 'the soother,' but somewhere deep inside of you, you know this isn't right, it doesn't feel right, you sit there wondering how the hell this became YOUR problem when all you did was something nice.
Stop letting her off the hook. If you get into a situation again like the one last night (and I am sure you will), and she keeps pressing you to talk, what I would do is tell her that you aren't really sure what the problem is, you'd like a few days to think about it, and when you figure it out, then the two of you can sit down to talk.
This does a few things for you. One, it doesn't let her off the hook. Two, it gives you a few days to distance yourself from your emotions so you can logically view the situation and figure it out. Three, when you come back to talk about the situation, you can lay out your boundaries to her without being angry.
Now. Think again about the scenario last night. What didn't feel right about it? If you were going to handle the same situation again today, what would you change about how you acted and responded to the situation?
Let's say that the catalyst for last night was that you took HER problem and personalized it. View the situation now without doing that.... completely leave you out of it. Now how do you see the scenario? What would you have done differently? How do you feel about the situation viewing from this type of angle?
Just some thoughts. If I'm way off base, please disregard.
Corri,
Holy crap Batman...I think you nailed it. Some aspects about the situation might not be correct but I think there's something there.
It's very confusing because on one hand, she says "I want you to tell me when I do something bad" but on the other, she says "I'm feel like I'm walking on eggshells now and that I'm about to make a mistake that sets you off". I simply said that my insanity probably has more to do with the fact that I haven't allowed myself to "love" or be vulnerable in 10 years and that I know that lack of eye contact and proximity shouldn't make me think that everything she has been doing doesn't count. Afterall, she did do some things yesterday to contribute to the R which I didn't acknowledge before going into my tirade about the eye contact and proximity. I could barley remember that she did them. I know there's a couple issues with how I handle my feelings but it was wierd...they went from a happy 7 to -10 in about 1 hour.
By the end of our discussion, she said that one factor is that it's her "week" and that she felt nasty and stinky after all the painting. So I give her that one. She facetiously told me to keep a scorecard so that I can judge whether a day was "good" or "bad".
I have a question about not letting her off the hook....
Should I wait a few days, then disclose the issue even if I come to see it as silly? Or should I simply say that I was "just feeling bothered for illogical reasons". I told her last night, before unleashing, that I probably should stay quiet because it was probably irrational. Afterwards, she agreed that I shouldn't have. By the time we were done though, the way i saw the world had changed and I clearly did see how irrational I was. But when were calm, we had some nice talks.
I DID ask her if she feels like she doesn't get an opportunity to talk about her self to others because typically shes doing all the listening. She said that her college friend is her sounding board and provides "straight" feedback. She told me that she asked her friend this question..."isn't it typical for wives to only have a sex a few times a year"...her friend told her she was totally nuts. But Corri, I really think you are on to something that she might not be facing up to. If there is, then she's a masterful liar because besides telling me how much she loves me, she tells her friends too..(I just found out). She said she wants to work towards the "vision" of a perfect marriage with me. If it's not me, but something else, then I wish she would recognize that this "deep" issue is about to blow our marriage apart. Is she simply hanging on for dear life right now?
Quote: But Corri, I really think you are on to something that she might not be facing up to. If there is, then she's a masterful liar because besides telling me how much she loves me, she tells her friends too..(I just found out).
I did not mean to imply that she is a liar -- I don't think that at all. I think the two of you are trying too hard to 'please' and to not disappoint one another that you are placing very high expectations on one another.
Last night, you wanted her to reciprocate and recognize your efforts in a way that was meaningful to you. But she felt gross and stinky, so she sat with you even though she felt incredibly uncomfortable, and transmitted those feelings to you. You, in turn, took her non-verbals very personally because of your expectations.
My point here is, since your wife is not on the boards, what could YOU have done differently to keep this situation from escalating?
Not letting someone off the hook means you do not allow someone else to make their problem yours. If you want her to do something for you, then it is up to you to communicate that expectation so that she can communicate back to you her thoughts and feelings. When you were sitting with her, all you had to say was, "I was hoping I had given you a really great reason to want to sit and cuddle with me, but I feel like something is wrong. Can you tell me about it?"
You are not 'letting her off the hook' by bringing the issue to light, not letting her avoid the discomfort, and clearing up an issue so that you do not personalize it. She should have said something to you, and her part in this was that she avoided clear communication with you because it could have turned uncomfortable for her.
However, when she turns back to you and says it's her week, she feels gross and stinky, then you have to think through whether or not you take the issue further. You are still feeling hurt; you could do any number of things at this point; you could suggest that the two of you get up and finish the stuff she wants to get done since she is already in her gross and stinky state, and suggest cuddle time in front on the new TV for tomorrow night -- jeese any number of things. And if you are still feeling hurt, I suggest you give it a few days to crystalize in your mind exactly WHY you are feeling hurt. It could be that in a few days, the issue will have resolved itself and there will be no need for you to bring it up. It could be that in a few days, it is still really bothering you, but your emotions are settled and you can deal with the issue in a more rational state.
Everyone is responsible for their own part in the relationship, and that includes your wife. She probably didn't say anything to you because she didn't want to disappoint you, but that doesn't 'let her off the hook.' See?
You need to pick and choose your battles. Was this a 'hill to die on?' If so, why? If not, how do you move past it without resentment? If you feel your emotions are in turmoil and anger is welling within you, yes, you owe it to yourself and her to remove yourself from the situation and give yourself some distance until you have a clear handle on what's going on. If you give in to your emotions and 'let loose' on her, the issue is going to become about your 'emotional state,' and not what really is the crux of the problem.
You must give her a safe environment in which to communicate with you; she must be held accountable for being honest and open with you.
We are both prety bad about being passive agressive. W was "mockingly" staring into my eyes after the discussion we had last night...fearing that I would get upset if she didn't make quality eye contact with me. It was completely in a humorous, playful way and she knows she safe to do stuff like that because I'm pretty easy going. I laughed a few times but and in a smiling, laughing way I said "you are totally belittling my feelings". She said "oh come on...I'm just playing with you".
I know how you feel, My H does that to me alot too, then says those exact same words "I'm only kidding with you" I have told him time and time again that his attempts at kidding are making me hurt even more. Some people just don't get it. I will be waiting for others to chime in here to your question. Hang in there.
Returning from picking up some lunch, I passed by another neighbor's house. This neighbor is part of the reason I'm here now because during one evening at another friends house, she admitted how her H was ND and how she was HD and she gave insights into her fantasies etc. I had told her that our frequency was just about the same. This made me realize that there ARE HD women in the world.
Anyway, we haven't talked about this issue at all, but when I'm around her (and it's always within the presence of our spouses), we have an "unspoken" communication going on that tells me that she desperately wants to talk about the things in her head with someone who can relate. It's very weird...for example, I made a joke having access to riding-crops when our D6s take riding lessons..then an hour later, she played a little "dominance" roll play with me because I didn't want to eat some brie (I don't like the crust). There have been a number of these exchanges. What's really scary is that I've spent less than 2 hours with her at parties etc. and she completely gets me more than my wife of 10 years. It's an amazing thing, completely fun, but I know it's wrong. Nothing is overt flirting...it's simply acknowledgement that we both understand more esoteric forms of sexual expression. God, if we ever got together, it would take a construction crew to clean up the mess...we would be so completely sexually equal but absolutely incompatible in every other way. And while my "shoulder-devil" says that I should get her email and keep having this mind-game fun, my "shoulder-angel" says that I should either avoid her or at the very most, point her to constructive resources. This is the woman who said that she wished the world worked in a way where her husband and my wife could play cards while we...ya know".
Why is all of this stuff happening now? I'm not doing anything too differently now than I did in my 20s and it feels like women are crawling out of the woodwork. Another neighbor told be that her college-age babysitter thought I was hot. Another woman said something to my wife like "oh, he works for xxxxx? Wow, I didn't think smart and good looking could ever come in one package." Am I giving off a vibe from the confidence I've gained by my excursions? I know that it's all innocent, that none of these women would actually act on this and I certainly know that this "luck" would be gone if I were D. But it feels almost like high school again...and the whole community is getting me "charged up". Part of my talks with a mutual friend had to do with trying to get the "collective female libido" of the neighborhood up. She's going to throw an adult toy party to do this. Wow...these are really weird times. In the past I've always tried to look at a big picture that these clues bring. I've been very fortunate in my career and in many other areas because I paid attention to "synergies", looked at some bigger pictures and trusted my gut. Hmmm.
