TLEE86. Part III

[TLEE86]

This is going to be long (sorry)

T2, Z, and C- thank you all for your posts. I'll be honest, probably the best ones you guys have said since I've been on this site- re read them at least 4-5times in the past few days.

T2- thank you for the faith you show in me, I consistently find myself telling myself that I will hold out until April, and re-evaluate from there. I have so many ups and downs with myself and with W that it is easier to just say, ok I'm doing it the way i have been doing it, and will keep it up for another couple months. I find it interesting that you think W is noticing my changes, Im not too sure, I think some maybe, but i really don't know...something i have to keep thinking about. I did really like that thread from Cadet you posted, there were a lot of great lines in there. The one about the dog running on a leash particularly stood out to me. On another note, when you heading out over this ways?

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Z- First, I don't even doubt that you can do better pull-ups and pushups than most guys. Thats awesome! Your post actually stood out the most to me. This in particular.

His parents always said the army made him this way. We all suffered under a lot of his mid-directed skill sets. Verbal, physical abuse and intimidation.

Not to say this is you. But your W writes as though she felt overpowered and lost trust, self-respect. That's a hard thing to come back from. It might be possible but I think this, over the OM, over her confusion, is the primary issue that keeps her where she is.

My W says I changed after deployment, and I know verbally I said a lot of things to her i shouldn't have. Intimidation, not in the sense of being scared for her well being, but scared of me, yes. And I have never forgiven myself for it.

"Overpowered, lost trust, self respect." YEA, how she felt to a T. And I fully recognize that this is extremely difficult, if not impossible (Well nothings impossible), to come back from. And the last line about confusion over OM, and everything thats happened, I 100% agree is the primary issue over keeping her where she is. For an indecisive person, this is like mental overload. So she plays ostrich and avoids it all.

From the day you started following my thread, you've been an advocate to see W, and sit across from her face to face, somehow make it happen. I understand I think what you mean when you say "show her changes, but don't let her get the full effect of it," be friendly, but not satisfy her. Its hard to describe, but I remember the feeling of it, because i did it once. Just once, on our last face to face interaction in december. ITs like showing your loving, but not quiet giving in...still trying to figure that out how to do that over the phone...any thoughts? When she consistently turns to me to make her feel better?

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C. You're seriously my BFF on the internet. And my female counterpart. We have such similar habits (maybe a bad thing considering...?) But first, THANK YOU for the update on YOU...when are you starting another thread? Soon hopefully...But I am sorry to hear about your shitty work thing...praying the lower responsibility doesn't happen...

I really appreciated your insight as far as telling my bosses. And thats the EXACT reason why I havent. I will be judged, they will understand (to an extent) but at some point, they will doubt me. Oh, T cant do it, because he's got this and this going on...I don't want them to think less of me. Because honestly? no one can say [censored] to us when they're not in our situation. But you're story just confirmed the reasons why Im not saying anything.

Because I believe your conversations are being used by her as a crutch to avoid reality. And honestly? Why would she face reality? She's got your support, love (and money), she's got the dog, she's got a place to stay. She's got whatever she has with the OM/EA, she can just float around under the pretense of "finding herself" (which I believe to some extent she is doing) and there are really no (outright) ramifications to her choices - because she's got support on all sides.


So, she doesn't know how to do it. And in my opinion (my god, I'm full of them today), she'll continue to not make any decisions because a)she doesn't know who the hell she is and b)she doesn't really need to because she's got a roof over her head, food in her stomach, and support from you and her friend.

But here's the thing. I think your support and what not is enabling her indecisiveness. You're a fall back plan. She can always go back to you (should she want) because you're keeping the path home paved and smooth (as you should).

I know =/ What you said, is what I say to myself every single day. She leans on me when times are rough and wants me to make her feel better.You said this I think day one- perks of being M without being M...Case in point, she was blowing up my phone Friday because she was stressed before and after her job interview. Must have called me 15times ( I was literally briefing 400 people so couldn't answer). When she's stressed, I know she needs my support. Her "finding herself" is taking her sweet time because she has no consequences for her actions. Heres something I thought about though...knowing my W, if I cut her off completely emotionally (as has been suggested) she'd never forgive me. In a weird twisted logic, Id be "abandoning her" in her time of need (CRAZY HUH?)
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So update and some more thoughts (i know, will this post EVER END?)

Going back to the field for a week starting tomorrow (I swear i never home) and work is going extremely well. They're actually speeding up my time until I take Command so HOO-[censored]-RAH. BUT...I honestly hate going to the field. I just wanna stay home for a few days, this is my first weekend home in 2 months!

Ive really been meaning on joining a regular gym (not CF gym-C, don't hate me), but the CF gyms here suck. And i dislike them so I'm debating on going to a regular gym and following the following workout plan. M- BENCH T- ARMS W-LEGS (Repeat for the remainder) Basically...get beach body mode for summer. But we'll see, maybe when work settles down a little and i can actually go..

W is at home this week, she decided to go home for a week to see her dad...she told me she's been quiet lately because she's been "thinking about all the painful things she doesn't want to think about" and she needs to go home because "its something i should have done 8months ago and got out of that stupid house when you were gone"...she told her stepmom that we are "talking daily and rebuilding????" WTF DOES THAT MEAN...rebuilding WHAT...Idk...but i didnt ask.

Im seriously going to try and leave my phone home tomorrow and when W texts/calls, I won't even be around/tempted to pick it up. It'll give me a little breather and ill just be honest and say i left my phone home. Plus, in a weird way, when I don't respond to her, i feel like i am in a little more control of my sitch, and it makes HER antsy...as far as what I am doing...

One last note...I am tired of auditioning for my M. I am tired of feeling and wondering, ok is today MY day where she is all about ME or is today OM's day, where its all about HIM...[censored] THAT.

[Zelda09]

TLEE, I'll be thinking of you, will get back to you, I've got some thoughts forming, want to re-read a few things.

Be well today

[Zelda09]

TLEE,

The mechanics of everyone's suggestions are the hardest. I remember all this great theory I was reading and being like, great - now tell me what that actually looks like. So, pls don't read as a hijack. And only you know how practical any of my advice may be to your sitch.

I had a thread about 'separation turning bad' - all I can speak from is my own experience anyway, so check out the attitude I went in with when I took my trip, and how it all started turning. There was also a conversation a week later that was important, too. Two weeks later I picked him up at the airport, just for a night, he was angry, cold, heavy talks, and I think you started following my thread a week later.

Difference is, your W is reaching out to you.

My H made it very clear although he'd love me from a distance, he had no need of our R. It was toxic to him. He supported me going to counseling "but had little to do with my happiness now, though all he ever wanted was to see me happy."

Do you see how you can start preserving you, distancing, showing what she has lost through her actions? A statement like that rolled around in my head for days.

I remember feeling sickening antsy feelings realizing he was seriously letting go. What started off as S we both agreed to, we gotta get in a better place, blah blah blah, dates, us working on issues - he pulled back hard after 3-4 weeks to go on a previously scheduled trip (that got extended to six weeks) even when I thought things were going well. I think I had found this forum and knew not to push. We were lightly texting and then I took a chance and wrote THE letter, 'we can do this', convincing, that letter. He got down right mean and cold as hell, like trying to shake me off pant leg, cruel to be kind. I backed up hard, lots of NC days. What a mess before that trip. But all that light texting, moderate sharing - wasn't changing anything. He meant to emotionally separate and that's what he'd done.

So maybe I can take bits and pieces of all this to answer your how-to question.

What it looked like sitting on the other side of table from him:

A man who clearly loved me but was sad and not the least affectionate. (Until scotch). We might have hugged through those weeks, rarely I think. A reserved man with walls up. Ambiguous statements that drove me crazy and shook me out of 'we're S, this is fine, we'll work this out' mentality and inspired me to desperately try - he said when I was I interviewing roommates for our home, if he'd help bc I'd like him to be involved if he were to return -"Z, I just don't see it that way right now. You've got to be able to manage this person. I know you'll make a good choice." Kind, but distant. Short in words. I didn't panic until I saw that distance and realized he was undertaking process of emotionally divorcing me.

Get it? She values your emotional connection or your phone wouldn't have rung off the hook. It's the best card you have in your deck, speaking from someone who remembers being almost happy in first weeks of S; relief turned to panic when I FELT what I was losing. It's not that you have to abandon to make if clear that you're dropping your rope. Love, at a distance.

He also said other things. On the trip - "Z, I'm not saying well never be together again, but I need to work on me right now. I can't do that in a r with you." If your stepmom is reporting this 'working on it' thing from your W - keep your guard up, that means something, but I don't know if it means what you might hope for. H tried to act M, handled relatives' concerns With 'we may work it out, time will tell' until he just couldn't - while he was telling me this stuff. He wasn't playing me, he was putting nice coating on for rest of world. (Your Sitch is different; again, just sharing for perspective.)

What it may have looked like to him on the other side of tables -
realizing I was ready to move on - idk, I told him I also thought that while I was committed to making changes, it was for the benefit of my next R whether or not he chose to be in that. I told him tho it wasn't my preference, I'd scheduled/met withD lawyer. I was unshaken by his talk of us being over, just held his gaze and asked questions about our past, validated how he felt. Sounds like you've got a good base to be able to sit with her and do that genuinely and admit where you failed. I went through the whole wkend trip looking as though I accepted what was happening and was going to thrive, even if I had some faith it could be otherwise. Kind of where I was at, actually. I thought he was drug addicted, questioned if he was really ever right for me, and knew I'd had no shortage of great dates when I met him, this wasn't going to beg last rodeo. Made it clear I was hearing him loud and clear, I stood behind the letter I wrote, but would respond to where he was at accordingly. He became a lot more careful about his stance after that...

So, if you'd put it all together and say this:

1. Pull back, love from a distance and let her react to that shift and feel that you are closing off the parts of you that we're precious to her. Idk what those are, but you do! You ain't giving it away anymore. Ambiguous, kind, but firm if she panics. My H wrote the book on that.
It won't make anything worse, I don't believe. You don't need to hit her over the head with it - one or two statements will send the msg, just like missed, unreturned phone calls. I wouldn't go completely dark though.

2. Within a couple weeks, see her. Be the person you want to be, show capacity for understanding, love, change, peace, all that jazz. Connect with her, but from a point of centered 'you used to be my W' kind of distance. A bit formal, reserved, but interested, supportive, acknowledging. In your case especially, since you are sure you understood what your part in this was. At all times, adjust or pull back or move toward as gut decrees accordingly. (Unless gut gets desperate, tell it to STFU.) you can reach for her hand if it looks like she needs it, but not if you do all by yourself.
If it goes well over the day, weekend, you might quietly let her know you still have faith, and offer a suggestion for where you think you would have to start the rebuild. She'll shut you down or she won't, but it doesn't matter as long as it's 1% to the other 99%.
In my case my H believed I just didn't care about him and he had to fend for himself. For five minutes on that trip I was vulnerable, probably first time ever, and at the end told him he meant the world to me. He didn't say, ok W, I'll come home now - but he did bring it up later that day as a possibility.

*youve got an OM in your sitch. Have you thought about how you would get past that if it came to piecing? It may be worth addressing if you get to that point in your conversations. She'd have to believe you COULD get over it. Can you?

3. Return to your life and mostly forget it ever happened. The ball is truly In Her court at that point.

I hope this helps, sincerely. It's the only thing I know turned my M around, so I may be the hammer for all the world is a nail. But I knew at that point I had done everything I could at least and felt better on that fact alone.

[Mozza]

TLEE86 - You've been following my sitch, so you know that I got into a similar situation. It was not as intense, but it might just be because I cut it out early on. My WAW was contacting me a lot, she wanted to meet and chat, she wanted to exchange funny stuff, she wanted to be friends. On the advice of the vets on these boards, I've decided, against my heart, to go full DB and to let her face the consequences of her choice to S. I've cut down on communications, gradually but eventually completely outside of the kids stuff. So now she's on her own. She wanted to be S from me, now she is.

I don't know if it's going to work, it's too early. But it's progressing according to plan. Life is not all rainbows after all and she's back on her meds and more. I am doing much better at detaching. I live a more balanced life and I start to look at options outside of her, even if it means co-parenting until I die.

She is everything I am not and everything I wish I could be, and I felt inferior to her. So when we argued, I already knew she was better than me, and I cant do any better than her. That whole thing about marrying someone better than you or in a different league? YEA, how i felt. I didnt feel good enough for her or why in the hell she picked me when she could have anyone she wanted. I just felt inferior and anything and everything was fair game- huge mistake. I don't know if this makes sense.

I've been meaning to tell you for a while that I know what it's like to be M to a girl that seems to good for you. Like your W, mine attracts a lot of attention not only because of her looks but because of her personality. She is an easy laugh, she's positive, her eyes sparkle. She'd get hit on at the office several times a year (until it worked, twice...). I never thought I'd be with a girl like that, but I always swing for the fence, like you did when you first walked up to your W. And that time, it worked. A miracle.

So of course, when she leaves you think it will never happen again. I'm not even sure how I made it happen then. That's what my IC is focusing on. He's suggesting that my problem is lack of self-confidence. Not that I don't love my W, but that I would have a healthier reaction if I didn't think so hard that she's the only girl of that caliber that will ever want me. I keep coming back to her because I refuse to see her for the cheeseless tunnel that she has become at BD.

Our wives may not be all that great after all. They're causing us more pain that we have ever experienced. They've left us, they're telling us lies, they're playing with us like yo-yos. Mine cheated on me. Now she left me for a man she met a month earlier -- what does that tell me about her fitness as a W? Before I put her on a pedestal, I have to take this into consideration.

If you've read No More Mr Nice Guy, you know it's all about focusing on your needs. So I need to acknowledge that WAW is no longer fulfilling my needs for affection, respect, sex, intimacy, partnership, commitment, love, etc. And then I need to trust that I will be able to fulfill these needs elsewhere. In my case, it means starting to test the waters elsewhere to see if women I find interesting react at all to me. I've had some positive signs that have helped me detach a little more. I'm not rushing ahead to find a new life partner and I still leave the door open, but it's my way to heal, to become a healthier man who acknowledges his needs without shame and seeks out to fulfill them.

[TLEE86]

Z and Mozza- thank you guys for the words and advice. Z, your insight is really hitting home for me, and Mozza i follow your sitch carefully because of our similar WAW's behaviors. Sorry I don't have time to respond right now, i only have a few minutes but i promise i will tomorrow.

Just a quick update, been a strange..day.

W blew up my phone all day today, starting early in the morning. Guess her dad and stepmom were talking to her about me and her last night and they were definitely helping...saying how great we were and how we were best friends and etc etc. W started crying within minutes of talking on the phone and bottom line said its crazy what happened with us, how she doesn't know what is going to happen with us, but I'm always the person she turns to...shes been having panic attacks? for the past few days and asked me if she needed could i go back to her parents place for a few days and "take care of her."

So first, this is the first time she's actually wanted to really see me, especially since we live so far away, and also, we'd be spending the night together for a few days at her parents, where I know they are pretty fond of me (who would have thought her dad and stepmom were in my corner?) Im not sure this is a good thing but i think it is? Wed be in a very familiar environment with people who want us together and have a lot of time to be with each other...

Also id like to point out that the 180 i did the other week when she didnt go to her internship, is REALLY paying off. When talking to her parents last night,and they were advocating for our M, she told them that tim used to be really controlling, but now when we talk its all about supporting her, and how when she makes a 2second decision to suddenly not go to her internship, i don't blow up at her or get angry, but i support her choice..and I'm just not how i used to be. (I'm patting myself on the back here)

So I'm happy she wants to see me, but in reality, I'm fully prepared for it not to happen. I think she was caught up in the moment today after a long talk with her dad and stepmom last night, but...i might throw out the idea tomorrow to test the waters and see if we can make it happen. i thnk its too good of an opportunity...thoughts? Idk if this is just one of those...temp tests where she is seeing if i will actually be there for her?

[TSquared2]

T,

If she confirms she wants you there, get your a$$ in a car, on a plane, on a train and make it happen.

Why? Because regardless of the outcome, 5 years from now you will punch yourself in your face because you didn't take the opportunity to SHOW your changes, instead of just saying them. It'll be that " what if....." Question that will haunt you.

You have nothing to lose and everything to gain, as long as you keep your expectations at absolute zero and be the best new T you can be.

I said I felt like she has been noticing your changes, now you know why.

Many of us would kill to have this opportunity, seize it.

My 2.5 cents....

[Zelda09]

^ YES.

Timing is everything. Don't second guess.

But please go with your head held high, too. Keep your dignity and all that has been working. No happy dog that finally got called to come into the house stuff, you know? You'll feel what is right when you are there with her. No one on this board knows better than you, and you got the principle of the DB thing well in hand.

Yeah, TLEE! Many reasons to pat yourself on back. Keep posting.

[TLEE86]

I THINK my W is coming home.

Long story short, but we had another talk today about how her weight/hair loss, stress, panic attacks etc etc is a sign that she isn't doing very good. She said she needs to rethink all the pressure she is putting on herself about getting a job/her own place/school all at once. And she said she is going to fly back to Tennesse Friday, get her dog saturday, and get all her stuff squared away so that I can fly up there the following weekend and drive down here with her.

She's thanking me for being there for her, for helping her so much. I hope this doesn't go away.

I don't know whether to be excited or scared. Both I think. Excited that my W might ACTUALLY BE COMING HOME. But scared, because this came out of no where and I am scared tomorrow, she might change her mind. Talking to her, she sounds like she's thinking pretty clearly. Saying that just because she took some medicine and she feels better today, doesn't mean she'll be ok tomorrow so she's thinking long term and what makes her feel better

I am trying SO HARD to NOT let my hopes build up, but it is so hard to not just scream that she might be coming home. I hope this isn't some cruel joke someone is playing on me...

[Calibri]

First of all. Yes, if she confirms she wants you to come see her, then go. But play it cool and DB. All the way.

Ok. Now that I've said that.

I am so sorry to do this. But I am going to be the wet blanket here.

I'm worried about the "take care of her" statement.

I'm worried about the "pressure" statement that she made.

So, aside from the initial excitement that she may be coming home, what then? Because from what I hear, piecing is a real tough thing to do, and Tim, I'm not so convinced that she's coming home because she loves you and WANs to be with you so much as she wants to be taken care of and go back to something familiar because she was floundering out in the real world.

And then there's the OM thing.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great to see what may happen because you never want to live with "what ifs" BUT, I (and the rest of us here) don't want to see you wet noodle once she gets home and you guys not work on the issues at hand.

Zero expectations, even when/if she comes home.

Because the real work will just be starting.

Keep us updated, and believe it or not - I am
Happy for you. :-)

[Zelda09]

Either way, T, you're in for a tough ride. Not a bad thing, but you may find yourself exhausted sticking to your 180s when you see her.

Have you thought of using a MC? This person is coach, trusted in-biased 3rd party, structure and some bit of ceremony, a ritual that says you are mending and building. Ours has been a huge guidepost for us in reducing the friction, being able to lean on her and trust.

All that you describe feeling is more than understandable! You gotta honor where you are, regardless...and she will have her journey to complete. With DB and 180 firmly in hand I believe it's possible you can giver her space and support to do that as you slowly re-build. The good news is her head isn't all the way in the sand - she knows she's dealing with some s&&& and wants to be in a better place. That's a lot.

I get it. One of my biggest concerns when H came back was that I was being used. Time will tell, but ---

The ONLY thing you have to control and worry about is you now. Do your very best to change the dance that destroyed your M and be at peace with the days.

((TLEE))