Well, this is just a diary entry really. Just have had some thoughts in my head lately and figured other perspectives may help... that is if anyone even wants to comment!
I thought we made a great couple and that's why I married him. I grew up as a girl next door type who loved playing with boys and tomboys. Romance wasn't a huge issue for me back then. It wasn't necessary to shower me with gifts. I still feel this way, however there is something that is missing or lacking.
My therapist called me yesterday to see how I was doing since we've reduced our sessions from bi-weekly to once a month as a couple. She seems to be pushing me to come in every week and we just can't afford that. She backed off and asked if she could followup with me every Monday. Fine with me, I suppose. I don't know. It's been on my agenda this week to sit down and really think about what I need from my husband and now all of a sudden that is my "homework"??? Hmmm.
I was on a web site yesterday and copied these quotes because they struck me somehow. Here they are:
"Very early in our marriage we posted a piece of wisdom that has helped us through good times and bad. It read, "Marriage is like running a farm, you have to start all over every day." It takes work to have a good marriage and lots of it! (Saul, 66, married 41 years)"
Isn't that so true?! I keep thinking about this quote and can't quite put my finger on whether we're both running the farm or not.
"Look at her - a lot. Let her "catch" you staring, glancing, etc. It shows her you are noticing her doing normal everyday things - it makes her feel special. She in turn will notice you. It's that simple. Once you stop looking, she'll look around to see if anyone is noticing her. And the first person that does could cause a potential conflict in your marriage. All women want to feel special. If a husband does not, will not or can not make his wife feel special, she will fill that void elsewhere. (Sharon, married 7 years)"
This hit me in the forehead! I feel taken for granted for the most part, as if I'm a glorified roommate who should be a nimphomaniac. LOL... a bit sarcastic!
"Support your wife in her life's work and hobbies. Celebrate her individual successes. She then will support and celebrate yours. Help your wife to become her own unique and powerful individual. She will help you. Two heads are better than one. Listen to your wife; mine is more often right about which direction to go than I am. Don't make a big deal out of little stuff, save your "big deal" reactions for the big stuff. Have fun together. Avoid jealousy. Set her free and she will be there with you; she will be grateful you are not controlling her. Your own freedom comes from being together when you support her. (George, 44, second marriage of 14 years)"
That hits even harder. My husband lacks in this department. He doesn't really seem to have hobbies other than watching hockey. He likes to play golf... and I don't share his enthusiasm for it. I go with him and enjoy the sunshine and challenge, but it's not an activity I look forward to or even think about. I encourage him to go with friends as much as possible and love to pat him on the back when he's had a good round. I wish he encouraged me more than he does. He compliments my aquarium once in a while, but complains when I buy stuff for it... like plants or pricey fish. He also pouts over my need to communicate with people. He absolutely hates that I am so open and he feels like our life is an open book.
I've hinted in a few of my posts that he does this and I've even discussed it with him, but he just doesn't seem to get my POV. It makes me feel as if he doesn't TRUST me. Like, I'm only doing it because I'm secretly hoping to find someone better than him. It drives me crazy! Why can't he just understand that I NEED to communicate and help people? Why can't he just understand that the board is theraputic for me? And... why does he insist on checking up on me by seeing who I've posted to and what I've said to them? I guess that's a bit of a vent!
I feel like I'm always the one to fix the problem. I have a very difficult time feeling entitled to the "extra" things especially now that our money depends mostly on him. One of H's suggestions was that he work a second job... at night. That struck me as a jab instead of a solution! I mean, how sane would I be without a break? I really look forward to him getting home at 4:30 every day! Not just because it relieves me from full responsibility of the kids, but because I love being around him. I wish he was more excited to see me.
Quote: MPT, you are a genius! Thank you for that post! I believe that is what I'm reaching for in my therapy sessions and the way you put it, it seems silly that H and I should be shelling out $$$ to get there (as slowly as we are). Why did it take your post for me to *see* this?
Hey Aquarian, Feel free to send some of the $$ my way if you really liked what I had to say. I won’t mind. Wish I could take full credit for the idea, but it comes from several wise people in my life.
Seriously, I hope that approach works as well for you as it does for us. It really does turn the whole thing around. It’s energizing. It also has the extra benefit of giving your HD spouse more of what he wants than the self-sacrificing, “I’m doing it for you” approach, (hereafter referred to as IDIFY.)
When I first found this site, I was in the place you and Corri are now. I’d been having regular, frequent sex with my H, for his sake for several months. I was feeling resentful. I felt I was the one putting in all this effort. I was losing my motivation. I found the site when I was looking for ways to increase my libido so that I would want sex the way I used to. The book SSM didn’t really provide the kind of information I was hoping for, although I got some useful stuff out of it. It isn’t really written for that purpose.
It isn’t surprising the first approach an LD spouse would take is the IDIFY. Afterall, the request comes in as “I’m unhappy. Take care of my needs, make me feel loved and desired. Do it for me if you really love me.” Even the book presents it from this angle. So that’s what the LD person does. But that doesn’t really work for long before the HD spouse says, “That’s not what I really want.” And the LD spouse is thinking, “I give so much and it’s still not good enough! Why do I always have to be the one putting in all the effort for him/her. I’m not getting what I need either!” Then the ledger book opens up.
The IDIFY approach also leaves the HD person in a position of “owing” the LD person something. It doesn’t give them an ego-boost. The person who gets to feel good about themselves is the LD person, ‘cause they’re doing so much for the sake of their spouse. It doesn’t even sustain the LD person indefinitely and without potentially building resentment, especially if the LD person sees no corresponding effort from the HD spouse. And they will need to see that effort to sustain the IDIFY approach. But that keeps the ledger book open.
So now that you’ve decided to get sex back into your life, do it as much for yourself as for your spouse. You’ll become a person who is in control of your sexuality, without being HD or LD. You will no longer be at the mercy of your libido. And you will have another pathway to feeling connected to your spouse. The more pathways the better.
Its like taking a course just for the purpose of learning, not the grade. You just can't lose with this approach!
You can take all of this and flip it on its head for the HD person showing a true interest in their spouse in ways other than sex. It's not just about LD and sex. When they approach this with the idea that there is a real benefit to their own growth and development, then they will begin to put in the self-motivated, sustained effort that it takes. They’ll want to explore new ways and depths of knowing their spouse and finding out how their own life can grow as a result. The criteria for success will be developing more pathways to feeling connected to their spouse and growing within themselves, not more sex. (And the added benefit is that the "LD" spouse will start getting more of what it is s/he really wants from their spouse. Not a tit for tat (no pun intended, maybe ) exchange, but real interest.)
There’s more than one way to get out of the “Center of the Universe” seat. Its not just about looking at what another person seems to need and trying to put them before yourself. It’s about being open to new experiences and new ways of looking and thinking about things. It’s about wanting to get out of the ever so comfortable seat and wanting to explore new aspects of yourself and your spouse!! You can’t do that sitting in the same place day in and out, looking at the world through the same old lenses.
I get what you are saying, and I'm supremely thankful you showed up to share that. I'm thinking over the last few weeks, and I do remember a few nights when *I* said to myself, now what if I did this.... and I did that. I did that for ME. Yeah, he got jazzed by it, but *I* was my motivation and it did something radically different for me. Can't really explain it, but I think I really get what you are saying...
Huh. Well, sheettt, what a great, new and different way of looking at the world....
Hey. I understand you have to get on with your life, but please pop in every now and again... you can wave your fairy wand of wisdom and depart, I won't mind....
I've been dying to respond, but my kids kept me really busy this morning! I've been trying to post for hours now!!
Thank you so much for that post MPT! I will be reading that a few times and letting it really soak in!
You know, I've been trying to put my finger on something. Every time I read a post from CeMar saying how hopeless an LD/ND spouse is, etc... I can't help but think that the DESIRE/DRIVE discrepancies many of us are facing are not just about sex. I believe MPT has just nailed that. CeMar, you're on the right track with the "improving your marriage" vs. sexlife approach. The problem is, "improving your marriage" is such a generic goal, isn't it?! I think the marriage will be improved if both spouses are willing to take a good look at the whole picture, and the emphasis shouldn't be LD or HD!! That just sets us up to have our ledger books open! Thanks MPT!
Bear with me, just thinking out loud... Both the HD and the LD spouse wants/needs more of whatever it is that attracted them in the first place (I think is what it boils down to). When we met our spouses and were in that "infatuation" phase... what made them stand out? What made us anticipate our dates together? What did we visualize our futures would be like with them? Why did we exchange marriage vows? What was it about them that made them the best candidate to parent our children? What was it that made them our best friend AND lover? Somehow one or more of these qualities has been diminished or nulled over time... or perhaps, just forgotten?
I'm going to answer all of these questions (from both perspectives... that of me and my H looking at me) and hopefully I'll get a little closer to finding out what my actual goals are, rather than simply ML more often.
Yes, I want my WHOLE marriage to improve. I want my wife to get all of her needs met. But I also want ALL of my needs met. In the long run, a great marriage will require PASSION for sex.
CeMar, I believe passion for sex is the ultimate goal for ANY couple. I wasn't implying sex should be overlooked. I think that, as MPT pointed out, exploring all the pathways to connecting with your spouse (again or further) will be an aphrodesiac so to speak.
Ok, here we are mid March and I figured the easiest way for me to figure out what was missing, was to recap my sitch... go through my posts and comment on anything that jumped out at me. Amazingly, it has helped me, so I hope it helps anyone to see this "LD"s perspective.
Quote: How am I supposed to try to save our M and work on my LD when I can't even imagine ML anymore. How can he ever make me trust him again? How can he be so sure that he can make me fall in love with him again?
These are my words in January 2004. I've come a long way baby! I have not rejected H and imagine ML quite often now, to the point of initiating more often. I trust him again since he has not disrespected me. What I AM having a hard time with is the fact that he doesn't seem to be putting much visible effort into making me fall in love with him.
Quote: I think part of the problem (in general) is the fact that H only seems to engage in foreplay in bed.
This hasn't really changed either. Sure, we hug and kiss but I don't get the impression that he wants to ML to me or finds me attractive outside of our bedroom or when it's not evening. I need more words of affirmation during the day. His emails really helped but I haven't received one now for about a week or so.
Quote: Morninglory said: I had to analyze why I felt attracted or repulsed by my H, what specifically were triggers.
Quote: I said: He treated me like his Queen; he didn’t drink or do drugs; he didn’t go out with the boys; he wanted to spend any free time with me; he wanted to be a family man and devoted husband; he wanted to be my best friend; he was a hardworker. He was the boy nextdoor, without a nasty past. He was innocent and pure. He was worthy of my full love. I completely trusted him. I knew he would be a loving husband and a doting father. He would be a father that our children could go to and feel safe and loved with. He would take care of me and always love me.
Qualities that attract me to H are: -Sends me an email or calls me from work (from time to time) to let me know he's thinking of me -Respects my sexual hangups (doesn't ask for bjs, initiates majority of the time, more later...) -Perceptive of when I'm feeling down and comforts me -He's a hardworker with a strong work ethic -He's somewhat firm and doesn't do things just to please others; he's true to himself/his values -He doesn't go out with the boys; he's not a drinker -Encourages me to be a good mother -Compliments my aquarium, how well the fish look, etc. -Encourages me to find more hobbies -Supports my aspirations -His sexual stamina and desire to please me -His acceptance and love of my post-babies body -His acceptance of my quirks
Qualities that need work on are: -"Forcing" me to spend time alone for myself instead of me feeling as if I need to make sure it's ok. -Taking the kids out so they can spend time just with daddy -Spending more quality time with just me -Letting me know he loves me with words of affirmation rather than just wanting to ML -Trusting my intentions
Qualities that repulse me are: -Procrastination -Laziness -Insecurity/Mistrust -Questioning my intentions
Quote: I feel loved when: I am shown appreciation and affection. I am romanced and wanted, trusted, listened to, and my feelings are validated. I am treated as a woman and not a possession. My expectation in regard to this is that it should not have changed when I accepted his proposal.
Hmm. Again, I don't feel loved when the only affection I seem to get is sexual attention in bed. I'll have to expand on this.
Quote: He mentioned that he's felt good for the past few weeks and isn't necessarily going to cancel his therapy, but doesn't think he needs it. He thinks he's figured everything out and he knows what he has to do. I just listened and was saddened that my fears were coming to light. I was afraid he wouldn't think his past behaviour was a huge problem. I was afraid he'd think the only change he has to make is to give me control of our sex life. I was very afraid he wouldn't finish the books our therapist suggested.
This is big for me. I discussed this "issue" with my therapist on Monday. I told her how I resent feeling like the one who fixes things. It's always up to me to do something. Even when I do do something and work towards a goal, it seems like H just continues without any change or effort. For example, back in December, we discussed how we needed to reconnect by going out on dates. We couldn't think of anything to do other than dinner and/or movies, so I suggested we each make a list of 10 things we like to do and then we could compare our lists and figure out what would be fun together for our dates. I've suggested "lists" like this before but nothing ever makes it to paper... so I'm waiting for his list and I guess he's waiting for mine. This is very frustrating. It's always up to me what I want to do. I was telling my therapist, I would love H to surprise me and be spontaneous once in a while. He has mentioned a few things he wanted to do, but they never pan out! I love skiidoing, but we've never went. He talked out going to a dinner theatre for Valentine's... but we didn't do that. He needs to stop talking about things and just do them. That will turn me on.
Quote: He validated my feelings by saying that all these years he'd been listening to me, but he just wasn't HEARING what I was telling him. He thanked me for carrying the burden of our sexual crisis for so long and told me how proud of me he was. He knew I was a strong and determined woman when we met, but now he really knew it! I explained to him that in December, when he had apologized (so genuinely) I thought he was where he is today (January). That is why I was so devasted and unsure of our future. He understands finally and we're working together now as a team rather than opponents.
These must have fed my words of affirmation because I reverted to a full fledged HD until I realized my love tank needed more fuel.
Quote: From H's letter:I was starting to feel self-conscious about my role as a lover and inadequate. I told her that I don’t know how to turn her on anymore and that I need her to tell me what it is that gives her pleasure and will turn her on. I don’t recall what her response was but I know it never helped us. We began to talk about our lack of love making, she again insisted that it was not me, that it was her and how she wasn’t feeling sexy about herself.
It's too bad he saw this as solely a sexual problem and not a relationship problem. I wasn't very good at communicating that my needs weren't being met (QT and WOA) because I didn't realize it then... all I could tell him was that it wasn't him, I found him attractive, but I didn't feel sexual/sexy. This seems to be a common pattern in this forum. I honestly thought it WAS all me back then.
Quote: I have just come to realise that I’m the luckiest guy on the planet as I still have a beautiful, sexy, loving wife who still wants to work out our problems. I had feared that I might have screwed things forever, but her courage, determination, love and her will has given me hope. I have given her a mountain to climb and I’ll be damned to let her do this on her own. We will climb this mountain together, and I THANK her for that.
What more could a girl ask for?! That went straight into my love tank! I don't feel like he's not letting me do this on my own though.
Quote: MPT said:The criteria for success is no longer whether he feels loved, but whether you feel your sexual self growing and developing. If it's not, then use him some more. But you're the one who hired him as your personal trainer and you have some expectations of him. The big question is do YOU want to develop your sexual side more fully and completely for your own sake?
I definitely do, and that is precisely why I chose to see a sex therapist. I missed being sexual! I knew it wasn't normal or healthy. I also wanted to dig in and find out if it really was just me or our marriage.
Quote: MPT said:You can take all of this and flip it on its head for the HD person showing a true interest in their spouse in ways other than sex. It's not just about LD and sex. When they approach this with the idea that there is a real benefit to their own growth and development, then they will begin to put in the self-motivated, sustained effort that it takes. They’ll want to explore new ways and depths of knowing their spouse and finding out how their own life can grow as a result. The criteria for success will be developing more pathways to feeling connected to their spouse and growing within themselves, not more sex.
I love this quote - thank you MPT!
When we met our spouses and were in that "infatuation" phase... what made them stand out? He called every night just to hear my voice and ask what I did and how it went. He cared about what I was doing. He was interested. Lots of words of affirmation were used.
What made us anticipate our dates together? The buildup of not being able to see or touch him everyday. The anticipation of spending the weekend together in orgasmic bliss!
I read through your post and it strikes me as being so similar to the way my wife probably feels. It is enlightening to see a little more prespective from a LD. One thing stood out at me in your lists of your husbands qualities that attract you:
Quote: Respects my sexual hangups (doesn't ask for bjs, initiates majority of the time, more later...)
From a HD perspective, this is usually the OPPOSITE of what we want in a relationship. Here is what I and many HD men want from our wives, women that LOVE to initiate sex, women that Love to give BJ's, especially without us having to ask. We want women that have no sexual hangups.
If you want to make real deposits into your husbands love band, YOU MUST BE THE AGRESSOR. When the woman is the agressor, the sex counts for about 10x more then when I am the agressor. Womens sexual hangups are THE CAUSE of SSM's.
You truly can not love a man the way he needs until you love his penis. Read the "Secrets about every man that every woman should know". You really do have to get very cozy with a mans penis to have a GREAT marraige.
Wish I could take full credit for the idea, but it comes from several wise people in my life.
You just can't lose with this approach!
That went straight into my love tank! I don't feel like he's not letting me do this on my own though.