Enjoying the ride

[Zues126]

A quick whimper of pain and a question for the forum.

The pain- it's dulled down, but there are moments where my stomach drops out. Tonight my D7 made a comment about "mom's friend ____", that of course was OM. I don't know if OM is hanging out at the house, or if STBX has just mentioned him. D7 of course wasn't aware of this, but it was real blow to hear it coming from her. And while the M is a burning heap of rubble and when I see what choices STBX has made, it still stings when those decisions and the consequences are echoed through reminders like this.

V-day is like that too. But just little things. Last night I read a book where the author was talking about how his child's mannerism's reminded him of their mother, and how loving and special that was. He talked about how after so many years you just know someone in ways you can't describe. When I read this my heart sank. So many of these most precious parts of life have been taken away. It just chafes.

Had to get that out as my friends probably don't want to hear it or understand, but I'm sure most of you do. I just don't understand why we humans can't get along better so much of the time.

Then the question- what is the harm with a rebound R? I say this both for the WAS and the LBS.

Here's what I mean. I KNOW I am not dating for a number of reasons. 1) I'm married and I have to act according to my beliefs regardless of what anyone else does. 2) I need some time to grieve and grow, and medicating would interfere with that. And 3) it wouldn't be fair to the person I was with as I am not certain what I'd do if I was in a new R and STBX came out of her fog. I can't be with someone new until I can make THEM a commitment.

But let's zoom in on #2. What harm would really come out of a rebound? This is on my mind because I see my STBX, and she seems to be so comforted by her new guy, and how great his heart is, and how free she is to not be with me, etc. She has someone to hold her, to validate her, to watch movies with.

I guess I'm looking for a little validation that the suffering that I'm enduring without medication is somehow going to pay off, because right now it just seems like needless torment. Particularly when there are not only no signs of a possible R, but there are all the signs it is over. Again, I know I couldn't date anyone else anyway right now, but tell me more about how this will have a happy ending for me.

I could use the pep talk. Thanks. And happy Friday the 13th and V-day. Probably no surprise they fall on the same weekend

[raliced]

Zues - I saw your post and feel like it deserves a more thoughtful post than I am physically capable of right now, but here's the abridged version

Your question about dating? I dunno. I've heard of people in no strings attached relationships, but never known any in real life - same with healthy rebounds, although they exist in theory. To me it seems like playing with fire - it might turn out ok, but you're risking more heartbreak

Average life espectancy is pretty long these days...someday you will look back at this as a relatively brief period of pain. The math is on your side.

Chin Up.

[Mozza]

Then the question- what is the harm with a rebound R? I say this both for the WAS and the LBS.

A few of us LBS are starting this reflection at the same time: jim0987, MCS, you and me. You can follow our threads for some ideas. I lack experience in this and I respect the vets who tell us that it's a bad idea, but instinctively, I see your three affirmations differently.

1) I'm married and I have to act according to my beliefs regardless of what anyone else does.
It depends what M is to yo, in your beliefs, but in my case we're not religious and while the M was a commitment, it was not at church. So when my WAW left me, the M became irrelevant, except in the law. Morally, she'd be quite surprised t hear that I hold on until D.

2) I need some time to grieve and grow, and medicating would interfere with that.
In this case, you actually go a little further than me. This is where I'm most concerned. What I I cause myself more harm than good? What if I ended up with a second heartbreak to mend? This being said, I'd like to explore whether I grieve my WAW or just a R with anyone because I'm insecure. It seems that a fling could help this thinking.

On the other hand, and this might be controversial: I think it would be easier for me to get back with WAW if I had been with one or more other women during the S. I hold a lot of resentment for her "romantic/sex holiday" with this OM, which is what it would be if we were to get back together. I'd feel like a fool for waiting for months in chastity. I'd find it really hard to get back with her with this impression that I was solely a victim, that I was very righteous while she was with OM. I expect to accept it more easily if I share the guilt of looking outside of our M.

3) it wouldn't be fair to the person I was with as I am not certain what I'd do if I was in a new R and STBX came out of her fog. I can't be with someone new until I can make THEM a commitment.
This, I don't get. I don't need to make a lifetime commitment to another person to get into any sort of R with her. In fact, a very large majority of couple relationships don't last forever, the only exception being uninterrupted M. I can meet someone who's looking for something short or I can tell the person about my situation and let them decide.

--------------------
By the way, I'm really glad your WAW was fine after all. What a scare.

[Zues126]

Thanks Mozza. I read the threads and there's a lot of recurring themes. For me I know I'm nowhere near ready to date. I have a lot of work to do on my own, and though there may not ever be a true end to the grieving process or personal growth, I'd like to get to the point where I'm done with this chapter of my life before opening a new one. I was more just wishing there was a Staples easy button to short cut my way there

The truth is I haven't done a fantastic job with DB. I'd give myself a C. I've made some strides, but I could do a lot more. The biggest challenge is that I am not able to be close with my STBX. She wanted to be friends, and I told (in October) I would be in terms of always wanting what's best for her, sharing history, sharing children, and supporting her relationship with them. But I am not able to be emotionally available to her, or remain in casual contact.

The reason this is probably poor DBing is twofold. First, it's not necessarily doing what works. Second, this is similar to how I behaved during our M. I would withdraw for periods of time. Sometimes it was out of resentment, because I felt angry about meeting her needs when I felt so hurt and diminished. Most of the time it was because I just hurt so much I couldn't be around her. Maybe these overlap somehow. But it was a bad M, I played a big role, and there were periods of months that we'd hardly speak. We'd still do things around the house to silently show thoughtfulness and maintain our commitment, but it was a bad M.

So now I am echoing the same behavior. And I haven't found any place within me to surpass this challenge. Talking to her is like sitting waist deep in a pit of snakes. I just need to get away. And honestly I think she feels the same way about me, not mind reading, this is essentially what she told me repeatedly when she asked for a D. My point is that being dark right now is probably showing her just more of the same, and I doubt it's "working" in any way.

I have grown in a few areas. I am a better father than I have ever been in the past. By 1000%. Not just "fun dad" although I make sure we have games to play, trips to the science museum or indoor park (it's cold in MN), and we have some fun traditions. But giving them their own time and setting boundaries on electronics, cleaning up after themselves, etc. Real parenting. Encouraging them to try new foods. Doing homework together. Having some friends over so they can meet my friends and share some of my life. And just sharing some of theirs.

I have also overcome my depression. I was really unhappy in my M, but I've learned that only I control my happiness. I realized that I used my depression to manipulate my W, and that I can pull my head out of my a$$ and just deal with my problems. Of course there's no one to manipulate anymore, so that helps. But overall when things are tough I just get it out and do something positive.

Finally I'm less compulsive. I used to practice pool hours a day and compete every weekend, worked a high stress manager job and was an overachiever, etc. I was always spinning as a way to escape the hear and now. These days I make time to slow down, go for a walk, talk to friends more, and just chill with my kids.

My STBX recognized my parenting and once even said "that's all she ever wanted". I think though we have minimal contact she'd probably pick up on the fact that I'm not depressed or manic just based on the more normal and reasonable way I've handled my stuff when we've had to interact. But maybe not.

Either way, I admit that I haven't become a finished product, and that I don't know that I'd be able to warm up to her even if I thought that would be a 180 or help save my M. I realize that in the past when I've been frustrated with my STBX it's because I feel like I can't meet her as far of the way as I would need to for a shot at R, so I'm mad she couldn't meet me further.

But I am ok with this. I am doing my best, and even at the cost of my M there are things I haven't figured out how to change at this stage. I'm still openminded for growth and inspiration, but I also know that I might miss my window.

And not to play the sour grapes card, but I realize that my STBX and I weren't in a good M, the thing I liked most about her that kept me by her side was her values, character, loyalty, and commitment. I don't believe in walking away from an M over feelings or I would've years ago, but the fact is that I can understand why she bailed and there are times when I think she did the right thing for us.

I don't know if I'll ever be a man that can have a great M, I hope so. I don't know if we'd ever be able to have a good M, but I still would be willing to consider trying only because I could live with failing and not with giving up.

But this is where I'm at. I've got another appointment with my IC this week and DB coach next week. Until then I'll keep up the 180s I've made because they have saved me, and maybe as I detach further and my pain lessens I'll find a way to be overcome my reluctance to open myself to my STBX.

Hope all of you know I appreciate you in DB Forum world!

[Maybell]

The truth is I haven't done a fantastic job with DB. I'd give myself a C. I've made some strides, but I could do a lot more. The biggest challenge is that I am not able to be close with my STBX. She wanted to be friends, and I told (in October) I would be in terms of always wanting what's best for her, sharing history, sharing children, and supporting her relationship with them. But I am not able to be emotionally available to her, or remain in casual contact.

I've talked a lot about Labug's Save Me banner versus the Save My Marriage banner and how DBing is for saving yourself. You've come a long way towards saving yourself. I'd give you more than a C just for your insights and the wisdom you've shared with so many others (including me).

I don't know if I'll ever be capable of being in a great marriage either. I hope so. But I'm reminded of what one of my divorced friends told me recently: You don't get divorced FROM someone, you get divorced TO them. So even that relationship can be great, while not the one we originally hoped to have with the person we chose to marry.

[Zues126]

Thanks Maybell. You know, tonight what's on my mind is how easy it is to go between optimism and pessimism in regards to future relationships (whether with our WAS or someone else).

When I'm feeling optimistic I believe that I can find someone out there that's a reasonable partner for me. Not perfect. Not romantic and exciting and passionate all the time. But committed. Able to get through difficulty. Character to get through tough times and see that as worthwhile to enjoy a lifelong partnership, even if the M isn't everything we hoped it would be in every way. But then finding that just when you thought it would be a mediocre R, that years of shared experience would uncover moments of love and connection that surpassed the butterflies that we thought were love in our 20s. Just someone that wouldn't succumb to the temptations for an easier road, and that would choose healthy decisions even when I'm not always a perfect spouse myself. When I picture that, I'm grateful that my WAS left in time for me to still meet a person that shares this vision and is willing to back it up when the going gets tough.

When I'm feeling pessimistic, though, I don't believe that will happen. I hear a LOT of people on here talking about how their WAS has issues and they are better off without them, and trust me, I get it. Frankly I am a super, super sensitive guy and the thought of an extended emotional and physical affair with another man, combined with bad mouthing me, etc, was really crushing. Even if she came out of a fog, she could never be a woman that hadn't done that to me. But my bigger point is, there's just no guarantees in life. There's no guarantees that "I'll find someone that won't do that". We just don't know, and if it can happen once it can happen again. Yes, I can try to grow as a person and make the road smoother next time. But frankly I'll always be flawed too.

It's so tough because all I really wanted in my life was a good M. Honestly that is it. I gave up the chance to be a world champion pool player, and that dream meant enough to me that I practiced 10 hours a day for many years, it was my life. But I gave it up to have a M. I had children because my W wanted them. They are my family now, but initially it was for her. I have a job to support them. If it was just me I would be a full time pool and poker player. Point is, I became domesticated, working a 50+ hour a week job, parenting on my free time, and giving up my childhood dreams, all because I wanted a lifelong partner.

Now it's still working out ok. I like my job, I love my family, and wouldn't let them go for anything. I guess proof that I don't know how to run my life and get what I want and should trust God to provide the way. The point I'm still struggling to make is that I have a hard time picturing being content without a good M someday. I still dream of "someday I'll be in a good R", but there are just no guarantees, and it was so important to me that I have a hard time accepting that.

So again, I'm not saying I won't be. But I guess the question for ALL of you is this: If you KNEW that not only wouldn't this M work out, but that none of your future R's would work out either, could you still live a fulfilled and satisfied life? Or can you only accept losing your WAS because you tell yourself you'll do "better" someday?

Right now I struggle with that. On the one hand I would do my best to enjoy what God provides, because I'd be entitled and ungrateful if I didn't. On the other, that's really all I ever wanted and I just am having a hard time letting it go. I feel like I need to let that go to enjoy what I've been given, help detach and accept my loss, and be stable enough to give a good M a chance someday. But I'm not quite there.

Sorry if this isn't clear. I'm a little rambly tonight. But I appreciate all of you for posting. I like you guys. It's nice to see such good people battling along side of me trying to do your best in between blunders and sorrow.

[Mozza]

Zues126, you're SUCH a Nice Guy. Sorry, it's my theme these days because I'm almost done reading the book and it overlaps with my IC sessions, but your post screams of Nice Guy. Have you read the book?

- You're willing to settle for a "reasonable" partner.
- You don't even believe you can find that person who will not leave you.
- You sacrificed your dream for your family and can't understand why you lost it then.

As for your question, I try to no longer frame my life satisfaction in terms of relationships. Can I be happy without a M? Without my WAW? Yes, I realize I do. It opens new doors. What about your pool career, now? Has a door open? What else would you like to do if you had every right to have your needs met?

Anyway, it's late and I gotta go to bed, but I encourage you to read NMMNG. I can't say if it will be an epiphany for you, but there are a few relevant ideas about being confident that you can express and meet your needs to live a fulfilling life.

[SunnyB]

But I guess the question for ALL of you is this: If you KNEW that not only wouldn't this M work out, but that none of your future R's would work out either, could you still live a fulfilled and satisfied life? Or can you only accept losing your WAS because you tell yourself you'll do "better" someday?.

Zues, this is a great question and the exact reason I know I don't need to be dating right now (well, and I'm also still M). I really do believe that in going to have a great R some day. One better then what I had. I'm not just saying that to make the S easier, I really do think that. But I'm not ready for it. Because I want it too much. When I get to the point that I am happy with myself, and I don't need a R to make me happy, that's when I will be able to have that kind of R. I can't get there while I am needy. So, yes, I do think I could live a fulfilled and satisfied life without a permanent R. With just me. That's what I'm working towards.

[labug]

Awesome post, rpp!

[Zues126]

You're right Mozza. I did read NMMNG and much of it applied. I met with my IC Friday about two beliefs I have:

1. You're supposed to stick out a marriage and never give up.
2. I need a committed lifelong relationship to be happy in my life.

We discussed that to some extent this is natural and healthy. It's GOOD to remain committed, to not walk out on someone because you don't like the way they load the dishwasher. And it's perfectly natural to want to pair up with a loving partner.

But it can become neurotic. For example, my M was horrible. In terms of a pyramid of needs, I had a M in which none of my needs were being met. We literally didn't speak to each other for many months at a time, no ML, and worst of all no partnering up on life. But even though I was miserable I wasn't going to leave because I was willing to give up everything else in my life for one thing- at least there would be someone there with me as I grew into my old age. Something about having a witness to my life. IC said it was like a security blanket for a kid.

So there is part of me that believes no one could love me, no one could want to stay with me, no one could want to want to fulfill my needs. And I think the need for the relationship is also partially to prove that isn't true. In fact, I think I settled for a woman that I originally thought was below me in many ways because I thought it would make it safe, like "she'd never leave me".

NMMNG talks about meeting your own needs. It also talks about being bold enough to ask for what you want, not taking offense if that's not a fit with someone, but not accepting what you don't want either.

I am working on doing that more. What's funny is that on a DAY BY DAY basis I'm absolutely fine on my own. I'm doing better now than I probably ever have in my life. So it's not the day to day living that's giving me a problem, but when I think that it's possible I'll never have a good R it's still a little scary. That's why I was wondering if I was combating my isolation by telling myself "it will work out someday". When I take that promise away it gets a little spooky for me still.

But I think that one day at a time I am proving to myself that I am able to do this. One day at a time I'm getting more confident. And while I still find it hard to believe a woman would be willing to accept me and remain committed to me, maybe I can change this with time. Fortunately I have time.

Either way I'm not going to walk back into an R with anybody that doesn't meet more of my needs than just being a witness or security blanket. Not only is that not what I want, it doesn't work. I was wrong. Accepting a terrible M and saying "all I want is a witness to my life, please don't leave" means the M will end up bad and the chances are it won't last. However meeting more of each other's needs will not only be more satisfying, it will mean the M is more likely to give me the commitment I want as well.