The Owl and the Pussycat

[Lyrael]

Okay, here is the plan so far: (going to post this and then I'llr espond to Mer in detail)
1) This Friday, since I get paid by personal check, I am going to get my husband to give me cash for it, and I am going to use it to open a checking account at our former bank.
2) I will let him know what exactly our bills are and WHEN exactly they are due, but I am going to hold onto the responsilibity for paying them right now. This means - I am going to decide on an amount for bill-paying that I can afford, and when it comes time to pay, I will ask him for the rest, and NOT apologise or feel guilty.
3) I will try to give him a few days' notice when I am going to need a contribution from him.
4) If he screws up and spends more than he has, I will NOT offer to take up the slack anymore, I will just accept the money from him. Somebody has to think about our financial future.
5) I am going to work on my OWN personal budgeting, and I will re-evaluate Plan 1.0 when I feel like I have my personal finances under better control.
6) I will give him a monthly run-down of what is going on with bills and ask for input or include him in the process in some way.
7) I won't say anything when he spends HIS money stupidly, as long as he is able to keep up with his portion of the expenses.

Can I just say I hate having to think of the money as HIS and MINE? I goes against everything I think marital finances should be, but that's the way it is, I guess.
Let me know what you guys think of the plan.
Myrrh

[MovinOn]

Myrrh,

It's a workable plan. I understand the feelings about His and Mine. It was really hard for me separate from a joint account. But it had to be done. That was not the first time H had written checks that beat payments to the bank.

I am unclear on what #4 means. For what it's worth, friends of ours had 3 accounts. His, hers and theirs. They sat down together figured out all the monthly bills, and then figured out how much each of them had to contribute to the their accounts. They came up with a figure that they each contributed for emergencies, too. That account was used only for monthy bill paying.

Whatever was left of their checks went into a vacation fund and personal use accounts.

It worked for them. Personally, I was appalled at the idea. Of course 5 years later, I was doing the same thing.

[Underdog]

Myrrh,

I had a really tough time with the his and mine concept too. My parents have had a joint account for a zillion years, and I grew up thinking that way. So did Mr. W.

So did me and Mr. W.--until we separated.

Now that we've done it, I don't know if I want to go back to the old way. If we get the chance to reconcile, we will go back to something we did when we first got married and were living independently: keep our checking accounts and put each other as co-signer.

I know plenty of happily married people who were able to get over the hurdle without incident. In fact, it makes all of them feel like they're contributing and not in a dominant or subordinate position in the marriage.

Tomorrow we'll chat and I have another book suggestion for you. In fact, it's the bad book I've posted about so you won't have to spend the money... I'll send it to you as a loaner (and you won't get the glares from the female librarians for asking for it either).

Although I really took issue with the overall message, there were some really good underlying ones. In fact, the turning point for me (and when I started to post here) occurred after I read it and wept like a baby.

I think it might give you some help with #7.

Hugs and thanks for your support today.

Bets

[Lyrael]

Hi, friends
Last night was pretty quiet - H came home relatively early (10:30pm), ostensibly so we could talk, but we ended up just hanging out.
I finally hopped back up on the Flylady bandwagon, so the living room was at least somewhat comfortable. He came home and spent a little time on the computer while I finished picking up. We talked, chitchatty stuff, nothing heavy. We talked a little about the car, but nothing intensive. As I understand it, his partner bought the car,and if my darling husband can't come up with the money for this car, his partner is free to sell it out from under him. Not a deal I would want to make, but at least he hasn't tied up four months worth of our income in a car that doesn't run.

Anyway, an important distinction to note here is that there is a fine line between validation and support. I needed to be more clear about not thinking that this car was a good idea, while still supporting my husband's right to make the final decision for himself. AURGH! Could this be any more confusing?

Anyway, I'm just going to keep swimming, because that's all I can do.
Hugs,
Myrrh

[Meredith]

YES!!! Validation doesn't always mean agreeance. All you're validating are his feelings on the matter. Yes, you can see why he would want the car, yes you understand his desire, etc...not necessarily giving him everything he wants! It is NOT saying "you stupid F, have you even looked at our finances lately? how can you be thinking of buying this hunk of twisted metal?".

I find this most difficult when STing discusses his work gripes. His grips, from a manager perspective, are terribly inane. I want to choke him! So instead of agreeing on his actions (which, for the record, I rarely agree with when it comes to his work ethic) I express my understanding of his feelings. Such as, "I can see how getting to work would be difficult for you" instead of "Yeah? Well they pay you to be there at 6am so yes...you do have to be there at 6am! And you think it is tough for you? Try getting a toddler ready on top of all that! Quit whining..." which is likely what I would have said in the past.

All a learning process!

[Underdog]

Myrrh,

Messenger has been down all day long! I am feeling bereft and cut off from the rest of the universe...

You can differentiate between agreeing with him and validating him. Our buddy Harville has some really excellent advice in this in the last half of the book... so don't fear.

It's actually really difficult. And then he says you have to empathize with the person, which I know is hard when he's bought something useless and you need food on the table.

A really good friend of mine had a classic example of this very issue--and Mr. W. and the rest our friends (and I) both felt that this sitch had the potential to break up their marriage.

These friends of ours are lovely people. After working outside the home for a zillion years, she finally got the chance to stay home and be the softball/baseball/soccer mom and chauffeur. He worked hard and had a penchant for remodeling Mustangs (he still does). However, since he was a kid, he had dreamed of owning a Pantera.

One day he drained one of his bundles of stock (their nest egg) and went out and bought one. He was completely surprised that she was pissed! However, she had a different tact that I always admired (as did the rest of their friends). Once she got her anger out, she never addressed it again. The Pantera sat in their garage for 4 years, because he couldn't afford to license it AND insure it... and when they moved to a beautiful new house (uh, mansion), she suggested he sell it. He surprised her by agreeing. He then sold it at a $20K loss.

She could have held it over his head for an eternity, but decided to forgive him for it. She's smart enough to know that he would take care of her and the kids, and he did. He maxed out in his stock options and retired at the age of 42... and now restores Mustangs for his hobby and living.

They're the happiest married people I know...

Lessons for all of us are all around the place!

So take heart and know that you're not alone.

Bets

[Lyrael]

A lovely example of how excruciatingly difficult this is at times...just got off the phone with H - we needed to talk about who was going to pay the power bill, or it was going to be disconnected. I have been telling him this for a week and a half. I got paid an hour ago.

He asks me if I have called the power company to tell them we are paying, and I said that I didn't hae the account number at work, and I wasn't listed on the account, so HE would have to call. He went crazy on me! Saying "we're not going to have power until Monday, they probably already turned it off, blah, blah, blah."

Then he has this lovely way of making these situations all my fault, and making me feel bad because I have to ask him for money - or maybe I am just projecting my own distress at not being completely financially independent. Anyway, this money thing is really crappy right now.

It IS okay for me to expect him to share in these expenses, isn't it? Or should I just struggle and buy less food until he has officially been there at the house a month? He has talked about the electric bill for the house as MY power bill, so I don't know if he is resentful at the responsibility or not. I don't know how to handle this and get back to the growing harmony we had!
Myrrh

[Underdog]

Myrrh,

You know the concept of projection? Because that was what D just did...

No it's not wrong to expect him to share in household expenses. IMHO, I think he got mad and expressed it, but it really was directed at himself--even though he was shouting at you.

Is this possible?

Hugs,

Bets

[karen812]

Hi Myrrh,

He went crazy on me! Saying "we're not going to have power until Monday, they probably already turned it off, blah, blah, blah."

Then he has this lovely way of making these situations all my fault, and making me feel bad because I have to ask him for money - or maybe I am just projecting my own distress at not being completely financially independent. Anyway, this money thing is really crappy right now.

I want to chime in w/Betsey. Did he SAY that it is your fault? I didn't read that. ??? Are you putting words into his mouth/hearing things that he is not really saying/expecting the worst??? I know that I do this. And h will say, "did I say that?" and I say, "well...no..." Here I was assuming the worst and not giving him the benefit of the doubt which then in turn causes him to feel defensive and like I don't trust him. He has also said that maybe he SHOULD treat me the way that I accuse him of treating me! (Just to get a point across, but fortunately, he does NOT do that!!!) Then what would I do? Say, "see, I told you so! I knew you didn't really love me and that you'd rather be with your friends, and you don't care about our m, and on and on and on...

Are you trying to prove yourself right? Are you pigeonholing your h b/c of some of your own insecurities?

Wow, I like that story that Betsey told about the Pantera.

Kind of ties into another thought that I had-How can you (we) remove the victim in your (our) sit.? CAN you take care of your finances better if you do eat more PB&J or mac-n-cheese? Are there ways that you can save money so you can pay the bills w/o having to bug him for money?

Yes, I agree that he should be helping and not putting all of the burden on you, but if you continue to feel like he is "doing this TO you," you will feel angry with him and it will show. So, how can YOU take charge?

karen

[dazedboy]

My business partner is just like your H. Man, sometimes he will go off at me with this acerbic, nasty tone. I will get so mentally aggravated at times I want to choke him. That may still happen yet!!

But he vents the things to me, not our customers, and he is over it. Me though, I hold onto it longer than I should, but I'm learning to release some of that. My partner is rarely upset with me about things, just the situation he may have gotten himself, or us into.

Once you have delegated the responsibility of something to someone, you MUST allow them to do the job themselves. If you pull it back, they lose trust in you, and believe you don't appreciate them.