Oh, Susana! (3)

[susana4]

Hey Susana,

Please don't cry too much, or beat yourself up too much. It's something you have to do, but I hope you don't linger...you are probably in fact pretty well adjusted, and we are all human. Your H had choices he could have made, too! In a good relationship, we all give each other that permission to be imperfect, right? Be kind to yourself as you explore. I doubt you're turning all the way into your mother...I know I don't know you at all from here, but as my IC said to me, "anyone that is aware of the term 'enabling' probably has less to fear from it than most." (This was one of her speeches on not being such a damn hard ass to my H.) Sounds like you've done a lot of work on that front with your mother already and so, even if you do need a fresh look...it's ok. You're you, not her.

Thank you Zelda, I needed to hear that. I've been thinking a lot today, and I am feeling in a much better place than yesterday. I've reflected a lot. I think I did a lot of work on my issues with my mother but most of it was directed at my relationship with her and how it affected me and not so much how that in turn affected my relationship with others. Well, I guess now's the time!

About four weeks after my H turned into a cold, angry alien version of himself, I also sat on the floor, crying, miserable in my introspection. On one of our dates, I shared with him a lot of revelations I had about where I realized some behaviors were coming from and what I was going to do to keep them in check. And of course apologies for diminishing him. This brought us closer, temporarily, but he was still angry and had lost faith in the R, M and he made a very conscious decision to pull away for almost 7 weeks of NC. Even after many confusing weekends and good dates, things where things seem normal. In hindsight, I believe if he would have stayed, and we would have had more of those talks without the pressure to be in the M he hated and me sometimes losing it and crying...well, maybe not, there's no way of knowing.

I had so many moments of losing it and crying too. Except with a lot more blaming of H, and trying to logically explain why he should stay (lol!). He'd just sit there crying while I tried to explain away why this wasn't a rational choice. Surprising how that didn't work, huh?

During this NC time he became even angrier. He chose to give up. It's been a long, uphill climb to regain any of that trust, but in the end he suggested he come home for just a few days to get his bearings before finding a place to settle during our S...and just never left and put his ring back on after a week because he said he was feeling hope we could actually be different because I was changing. I had given him space during those 7 weeks, but after he had time to cool off, the real turning points were in being vulnerable, letting it all be about him, remaining calm and cool and in lots of conversation about what had happened to us, being soft despite a whole lot of things that made me angry, giving lover's attention during a trip to see him to talk about us face to face. Questions, nothing about me, just questions and validation (but not the mechanical kind). I went in the spirit of gaining understanding, not trying to give it (which was a huge 180). Showing him I accepted him, his choices, his feelings and saw my own. Kept 'come back to our M talk' to an absolute 1%, and he'd work himself up into enough frustration where he brought up the idea (as an impossible negative) for the first time on that trip. And then we talked about how it could work. I had one trip and one phone conversation a week later to show him there was a me that cared about his feelings more than all my indignant, angry ones, and I could accept why he didn't want to be M anymore. I showed him I was strong, balanced, still sexy and though I never beat him over the head with it, that I was prepared to move on also.

Zelda, I've read your whole sitch now and I see a lot of similarities in your H and mine (people pleasing, stuffing their feelings) but differences too (I'm the one with depression, H has not gotten angry in this and he's never spewed, if anything he seems to be taking on all the blame).

Hope you don't mind if I ask you a few questions--
-being vulnerable - I've read this in a few different threads now and I feel like this might be an issue of mine but I'm not sure. What exactly do you mean by being vulnerable and how did you show it?
letting it all be about him, remaining calm and cool and in lots of conversation about what had happened to us, being soft despite a whole lot of things that made me angry, giving lover's attention during a trip to see him to talk about us face to face. Questions, nothing about me, just questions and validation (but not the mechanical kind).
Oh yes, validation - I've been trying this but I think I need to gain better skills. So far I've have about a 50% success rate. Sometimes it will go something like:
H: and then I had to do XYZ and I didn't even get to take my lunch break and my boss was still mad at me!
Me: That sounds like it must have been really frustrating for you.
H: No. It wasn't.
^^Not really sure what to do there, am I not validating correctly? Guessing the wrong emotion? Or does H not want to admit to the emotion?

I went in the spirit of gaining understanding, not trying to give it (which was a huge 180). Showing him I accepted him, his choices, his feelings and saw my own.
That makes sense. Gaining understanding...not give it. That really hits home with me.

I showed him I was strong, balanced, still sexy and though I never beat him over the head with it, that I was prepared to move on also.
How did you show him you were prepared to move on?

It is not easy right now. He is still angry and struggling as hard as he is trying. And I am struggling with a lot of violated trust and misgivings myself. Feeling like something was irreparably ruined. These days are tests for all the feelings of guilt and sadness, lol, bc I get fresh reminders of what an awful brat he can be, too.

But I firmly believe now what Michelle says in her book about one person changing the dynamic. Our H's looked at us to take leads at one time. Mine said to me after our talk after the fight we had a few days ago - 'when you're happy, I'm happy. When you're angry, I'm angry.'

Oh yes, I get that, H told me that he was miserable until he met me. In fact one of his close friends told me just a week or two before BD "H was a miserable @!)$(@£ before he was with you. Now he's so happy, be good do him and don't break his heart." (oh the irony)

At the time I thought it was sweet, but now I see it's not healthy, I can't be responsible for his happiness.

You say your BD came out of the blue somewhat - are you sure, was there a period even further back, a year or so, when you had the sense you weren't ecstatically happy with each other even if he was still doing H things for you, with you?

The thing I've pinpointed is my period of depression, but H is really insistent this has nothing to do with it. However, I find it hard to believe it doesn't. (Maybe it doesn't, though, I don't know.) When I was in the midst of it, a friend commented to me that I shouldn't lean on H too much because it would put pressure on our M. I discussed it with H and asked him to tell me if I was and he said I definitely wasn't, and our R could take it. Looking back, he was probably just people-pleasing me! Or maybe he didn't realise the strain it was causing.

Around June I started going through a really stressful period at work, and I was really struggling. I didn't particularly like my job, but then when things got really stressful my anxieties started to get bad, and I started to sink into depression, but didn't really realise it. I am sure I was a total nightmare to live with, because I was a complete mess. I was crying all the time, calling and texting H from the bathroom at work (where I was crying). I was happy on weekends and vacations, but during the week I was completely miserable. H told me in MC (after BD, and before we quit the C because she was making things worse) that he felt responsible for my feelings. H was texting me all day trying to cheer me up, and would come home and hold me and try to comfort me and tbh I think it created a bad cycle, because I did come to expect him to be there, and then didn't get the help I needed. I went to the doctor fairly early on, in July or August, but he wasn't very helpful, he mainly just tried to push ADs which I was adamantly trying at the time, and then I started IC but I didn't get on with the C so I left that. (Looking back, I think I was sucked too much into the depression to have the energy to do IC)

Tbh I don't really know how we were during this period, because it is all a bit of a blur. I do remember there were some happy times, when we were on vacation and doing activities on the weekends. Mainly, I was just trying to get through it, so I'm sure our M must have suffered.

The OW thing Complex mentions...I think it's possible, but only bc they start looking to the idea of someone else as meeting their needs. It might only be an idea right now. My H shared his thoughts (I wish he hadn't) that only someone who wasn't me could meet his emotional needs. Truthfully I believe they gotta meet their own first, or at least know what they are and how to communicate them. But we can't control that.

I went through a period of suspicion about an OW and did a little snooping (I don't have access to his phone/computer so it wasn't very effective). Then I thought it wasn't helping my mental state so I stopped. But I don't think there is, I think he's just gone on a bender now self-medicating with alcohol.

You said there are no R talks these days. But have you been able to explore what H was feeling, to show him you can handle those truths without conflict, that you are interested and care about him, independent of trying to save your M?

No... H has been avoiding serious/heavy topics of any kind. He's more than happy to joke with me, update me on his family, tell me about work, ask me to watch TV with him...but not talk about his feelings. (The horror!) I think this is where my H differs from yours, he's never been one to bring up negative feelings.

Tbh I'm still not 100% of what he has been feeling. And that frustrates me. But I also don't know if it's right for me to initiate that sort of talk..am concerned it would be me pushing him or controlling him, trying to force him to confront his feelings. I would love to help him in any way I can, even if we don't save our M, I want him to be happy. Did your H just open up to you about his feelings or did you begin the talks?

I know when I did push my H to talk in the past it didn't go well. The last time was a couple of weeks ago, when I pushed him to talk about some of his childhood issues and how it tied into our problems and he just changed the subject after about 10 minutes to point out a passing bus. Of course, not sensing I should NOT PURSUE, I tried to push him back into the conversation, and he got upset. He later told me he was "exhausted from all the talking". I was confused - we only spoke for 10 minutes. Then he pointed out prior to talking about his issues we'd been speaking about my childhood for an hour before that. Oh. (Like I said, he mentioned he takes my feelings on as his own.)

So I haven't initiated any talks about anything serious. He has brought up 2 things in the past 2 weeks:
*he said he's "working on his fear conflict", and gave 2 examples: 1) he said no when his friend asked him to go on a trip to Asia, because he wants to save money. 2) a friend invited him out for a bday dinner and he said yes immediately, but then regretted it and realised he didn't want to go. in the end, he decided to go, because he knew there was no one else going and didn't want him alone on his bday.
*he told me he'd argued with his best friend about a policy at his work, and got really upset over it and didn't know why, then thought about it and realised he's sensitive to arguing because he takes things so personally when it's not about him, and said he realised i'd been right about this.

So, he seems to be thinking about things, and maybe even confronting some of his issues. But talking about them? Not as much.