Oh, Susana! (3)

[susana4]

Yes, give the ADs some time. In most cases they take 3-4 weeks to fully build up a buffer in your system, which will then level you out.

These boards are such a great resource. Even if things don't work out in our sitch's, it seems like most can't deny that this is a healing place.

Thanks S. Wow, 3-4 weeks sounds like a long time! But I'm just being impatient I guess. Yes, I feel like I've learnt a lot just in the short time I've been here already! And I've got a reading list about a mile long from all the books I've seen recommended around these boards. Whatever happens, I think I'll grow a lot.

[susana4]

Hi Susana

Sorry you've had a rough day. Remember, you may just need to give the ADs a little time to start working for you - and there may be an initial rough period with that, but it should pass soon.

Fact is, none of us have been perfect partners. And who wants a perfect partner anyways? It's important not to beat yourself up about things, Only look at them from the basis of understanding your contribution for the state of your M, in order that you can move forwards.

We all have things that we wished we had seen and done. But that is in the past, and we now only have the present and the future. Better days are just around the corner, so hang on in there - you're doing really well. You may not feel this, but I think you've done a great deal of introspection and it is still early days....so, good for you!

Thanks Toots for highlighting the positives and the encouragement. I am trying to remind myself that the past is the past and we can only work on things now. DBing's really all about changing things now. It's easy to beat yourself up over not seeing things but I guess in the end that doesn't really move you forward.

[susana4]

Yes please don't feel guilt. he's the one who has changed and wants to leave you!!!!! You are being awesome and work in thibgs, he didn't connunicate well enough and doesn't fulfill his responsibilities for the M.
Never forget that. Whatever you did wrong in the past, you are the one with the ambition to make a difference!!

Thanks, he's definitely at fault too (I guess we share it though, we both made mistakes, and got into bad cycles). But I have the power to change me now, you're right, and I am making changes on me!! I've got that ambition H is making changes too, I get glimpses of that, which does really impress me (it impresses me he has because I imagine as a WAW it's easy to blame the LBS for all your issues and not confront them). But anyway, I shouldn't really peek on his lane and just focus on my own work, right? Because I have plenty!

[susana4]

Hi Susan, I hope your day is going better. I've been thinking about you a lot recently. I hope you realize how far you have come for yourself and your detaching. I also want to remind you, that when you are feeling guilt, (which I do all the time) you remember that you told me that we have to not worry about their feelings, but what's best for you. That will help everyone in the long run. I think it would be easier if our Hs weren't people pleasers.

Hi Erin, thanks for your message and keeping me in your thoughts. And thank you, I often feel like I haven't detached enough/very much but it's hard to see when you're in it. Today I feel a lot more peaceful and detached though. I suppose this is how progress is made - in fits and starts. Oh Erin, using my own advice on me! I like it! You're right, I need to remind myself of that, I need to do what's best for me. And oh yes, it would be a LOT easier!

[susana4]

Hey Susana,

Please don't cry too much, or beat yourself up too much. It's something you have to do, but I hope you don't linger...you are probably in fact pretty well adjusted, and we are all human. Your H had choices he could have made, too! In a good relationship, we all give each other that permission to be imperfect, right? Be kind to yourself as you explore. I doubt you're turning all the way into your mother...I know I don't know you at all from here, but as my IC said to me, "anyone that is aware of the term 'enabling' probably has less to fear from it than most." (This was one of her speeches on not being such a damn hard ass to my H.) Sounds like you've done a lot of work on that front with your mother already and so, even if you do need a fresh look...it's ok. You're you, not her.

Thank you Zelda, I needed to hear that. I've been thinking a lot today, and I am feeling in a much better place than yesterday. I've reflected a lot. I think I did a lot of work on my issues with my mother but most of it was directed at my relationship with her and how it affected me and not so much how that in turn affected my relationship with others. Well, I guess now's the time!

About four weeks after my H turned into a cold, angry alien version of himself, I also sat on the floor, crying, miserable in my introspection. On one of our dates, I shared with him a lot of revelations I had about where I realized some behaviors were coming from and what I was going to do to keep them in check. And of course apologies for diminishing him. This brought us closer, temporarily, but he was still angry and had lost faith in the R, M and he made a very conscious decision to pull away for almost 7 weeks of NC. Even after many confusing weekends and good dates, things where things seem normal. In hindsight, I believe if he would have stayed, and we would have had more of those talks without the pressure to be in the M he hated and me sometimes losing it and crying...well, maybe not, there's no way of knowing.

I had so many moments of losing it and crying too. Except with a lot more blaming of H, and trying to logically explain why he should stay (lol!). He'd just sit there crying while I tried to explain away why this wasn't a rational choice. Surprising how that didn't work, huh?

During this NC time he became even angrier. He chose to give up. It's been a long, uphill climb to regain any of that trust, but in the end he suggested he come home for just a few days to get his bearings before finding a place to settle during our S...and just never left and put his ring back on after a week because he said he was feeling hope we could actually be different because I was changing. I had given him space during those 7 weeks, but after he had time to cool off, the real turning points were in being vulnerable, letting it all be about him, remaining calm and cool and in lots of conversation about what had happened to us, being soft despite a whole lot of things that made me angry, giving lover's attention during a trip to see him to talk about us face to face. Questions, nothing about me, just questions and validation (but not the mechanical kind). I went in the spirit of gaining understanding, not trying to give it (which was a huge 180). Showing him I accepted him, his choices, his feelings and saw my own. Kept 'come back to our M talk' to an absolute 1%, and he'd work himself up into enough frustration where he brought up the idea (as an impossible negative) for the first time on that trip. And then we talked about how it could work. I had one trip and one phone conversation a week later to show him there was a me that cared about his feelings more than all my indignant, angry ones, and I could accept why he didn't want to be M anymore. I showed him I was strong, balanced, still sexy and though I never beat him over the head with it, that I was prepared to move on also.

Zelda, I've read your whole sitch now and I see a lot of similarities in your H and mine (people pleasing, stuffing their feelings) but differences too (I'm the one with depression, H has not gotten angry in this and he's never spewed, if anything he seems to be taking on all the blame).

Hope you don't mind if I ask you a few questions--
-being vulnerable - I've read this in a few different threads now and I feel like this might be an issue of mine but I'm not sure. What exactly do you mean by being vulnerable and how did you show it?
letting it all be about him, remaining calm and cool and in lots of conversation about what had happened to us, being soft despite a whole lot of things that made me angry, giving lover's attention during a trip to see him to talk about us face to face. Questions, nothing about me, just questions and validation (but not the mechanical kind).
Oh yes, validation - I've been trying this but I think I need to gain better skills. So far I've have about a 50% success rate. Sometimes it will go something like:
H: and then I had to do XYZ and I didn't even get to take my lunch break and my boss was still mad at me!
Me: That sounds like it must have been really frustrating for you.
H: No. It wasn't.
^^Not really sure what to do there, am I not validating correctly? Guessing the wrong emotion? Or does H not want to admit to the emotion?

I went in the spirit of gaining understanding, not trying to give it (which was a huge 180). Showing him I accepted him, his choices, his feelings and saw my own.
That makes sense. Gaining understanding...not give it. That really hits home with me.

I showed him I was strong, balanced, still sexy and though I never beat him over the head with it, that I was prepared to move on also.
How did you show him you were prepared to move on?

It is not easy right now. He is still angry and struggling as hard as he is trying. And I am struggling with a lot of violated trust and misgivings myself. Feeling like something was irreparably ruined. These days are tests for all the feelings of guilt and sadness, lol, bc I get fresh reminders of what an awful brat he can be, too.

But I firmly believe now what Michelle says in her book about one person changing the dynamic. Our H's looked at us to take leads at one time. Mine said to me after our talk after the fight we had a few days ago - 'when you're happy, I'm happy. When you're angry, I'm angry.'

Oh yes, I get that, H told me that he was miserable until he met me. In fact one of his close friends told me just a week or two before BD "H was a miserable @!)$(@£ before he was with you. Now he's so happy, be good do him and don't break his heart." (oh the irony)

At the time I thought it was sweet, but now I see it's not healthy, I can't be responsible for his happiness.

You say your BD came out of the blue somewhat - are you sure, was there a period even further back, a year or so, when you had the sense you weren't ecstatically happy with each other even if he was still doing H things for you, with you?

The thing I've pinpointed is my period of depression, but H is really insistent this has nothing to do with it. However, I find it hard to believe it doesn't. (Maybe it doesn't, though, I don't know.) When I was in the midst of it, a friend commented to me that I shouldn't lean on H too much because it would put pressure on our M. I discussed it with H and asked him to tell me if I was and he said I definitely wasn't, and our R could take it. Looking back, he was probably just people-pleasing me! Or maybe he didn't realise the strain it was causing.

Around June I started going through a really stressful period at work, and I was really struggling. I didn't particularly like my job, but then when things got really stressful my anxieties started to get bad, and I started to sink into depression, but didn't really realise it. I am sure I was a total nightmare to live with, because I was a complete mess. I was crying all the time, calling and texting H from the bathroom at work (where I was crying). I was happy on weekends and vacations, but during the week I was completely miserable. H told me in MC (after BD, and before we quit the C because she was making things worse) that he felt responsible for my feelings. H was texting me all day trying to cheer me up, and would come home and hold me and try to comfort me and tbh I think it created a bad cycle, because I did come to expect him to be there, and then didn't get the help I needed. I went to the doctor fairly early on, in July or August, but he wasn't very helpful, he mainly just tried to push ADs which I was adamantly trying at the time, and then I started IC but I didn't get on with the C so I left that. (Looking back, I think I was sucked too much into the depression to have the energy to do IC)

Tbh I don't really know how we were during this period, because it is all a bit of a blur. I do remember there were some happy times, when we were on vacation and doing activities on the weekends. Mainly, I was just trying to get through it, so I'm sure our M must have suffered.

The OW thing Complex mentions...I think it's possible, but only bc they start looking to the idea of someone else as meeting their needs. It might only be an idea right now. My H shared his thoughts (I wish he hadn't) that only someone who wasn't me could meet his emotional needs. Truthfully I believe they gotta meet their own first, or at least know what they are and how to communicate them. But we can't control that.

I went through a period of suspicion about an OW and did a little snooping (I don't have access to his phone/computer so it wasn't very effective). Then I thought it wasn't helping my mental state so I stopped. But I don't think there is, I think he's just gone on a bender now self-medicating with alcohol.

You said there are no R talks these days. But have you been able to explore what H was feeling, to show him you can handle those truths without conflict, that you are interested and care about him, independent of trying to save your M?

No... H has been avoiding serious/heavy topics of any kind. He's more than happy to joke with me, update me on his family, tell me about work, ask me to watch TV with him...but not talk about his feelings. (The horror!) I think this is where my H differs from yours, he's never been one to bring up negative feelings.

Tbh I'm still not 100% of what he has been feeling. And that frustrates me. But I also don't know if it's right for me to initiate that sort of talk..am concerned it would be me pushing him or controlling him, trying to force him to confront his feelings. I would love to help him in any way I can, even if we don't save our M, I want him to be happy. Did your H just open up to you about his feelings or did you begin the talks?

I know when I did push my H to talk in the past it didn't go well. The last time was a couple of weeks ago, when I pushed him to talk about some of his childhood issues and how it tied into our problems and he just changed the subject after about 10 minutes to point out a passing bus. Of course, not sensing I should NOT PURSUE, I tried to push him back into the conversation, and he got upset. He later told me he was "exhausted from all the talking". I was confused - we only spoke for 10 minutes. Then he pointed out prior to talking about his issues we'd been speaking about my childhood for an hour before that. Oh. (Like I said, he mentioned he takes my feelings on as his own.)

So I haven't initiated any talks about anything serious. He has brought up 2 things in the past 2 weeks:
*he said he's "working on his fear conflict", and gave 2 examples: 1) he said no when his friend asked him to go on a trip to Asia, because he wants to save money. 2) a friend invited him out for a bday dinner and he said yes immediately, but then regretted it and realised he didn't want to go. in the end, he decided to go, because he knew there was no one else going and didn't want him alone on his bday.
*he told me he'd argued with his best friend about a policy at his work, and got really upset over it and didn't know why, then thought about it and realised he's sensitive to arguing because he takes things so personally when it's not about him, and said he realised i'd been right about this.

So, he seems to be thinking about things, and maybe even confronting some of his issues. But talking about them? Not as much.

[susana4]

Spent some time earlier today catching up on various threads - got a lot out of reading some of labug's old threads. So much insight!

I don't know if it's the thinking and reading I've been doing, the fact H is away or the ADs (possibly all of the above?) but I feel a lot more detached. Today, at least. Knowing the roller coaster, I might not tomorrow.

Spent some time earlier trying to dig to the root of my fear.

What is it I'm afraid of?
Fear of losing my H. (well, that already happened)
But beyond that is...
Fear of abandonment. (ditto)
And beyond that is...
Fear of being broken.

Bingo! The fear that I am not enough, and that's why he left. That I'm irreparably broken in some way, and that's why he rejected me. But that's not true, because I am enough, and I'm a *little* broken, but I am fixing that.

I think I also really started to get how DBing is about us, and saving ourselves. The only way out...is in. And this journey is about us. But after all, isn't life a journey of getting to know ourselves better? As Cadet says, our spouses have give us the gift of time.

And I think it really is a gift. A gift to get to know ourselves better, and improve ourselves!

I realised earlier I was struggling a bit with this idea of fixing things about myself.
But then I really started to get that it's about fixing them FOR ME. It's not about fixing them for H and it's not even about fixing them for a future R. It's going to benefit me, even if I never have any relationship again.

I looked at some of my goals:
*Be less reactive/angry - I don't like being angry. It's not fun! So of course being less angry is a huge benefit to me. Who wants to wallow in anger all day?
*Treat my anxiety and depression - well clearly, this will make me feel better.
*Be less critical - this took awhile, but eventually I saw that this is beneficial to me, too. Because I'm not just critical externally, but internally too. That same voice that criticises H criticises me too - except 1000x more.

So my gratitude for today (and today only, because who knows how I'll feel tomorrow!) is to thank H for this gift of time.

[Zelda09]

I owe you a much longer reply later, but quick question -

Where/how did you and your H FIRST build intimacy and attraction in your relationship? Where did the essence of your bond start, how was it created?

You guys still know those dance steps even if you're slumped against the wall not wanting to get out on the floor. You have the gift of time and also - the gift of being in the same house still. I think it's something worth thinking about. Our situations similar, but different. Your H likes to stay on the lighter side sounds like. And he is doing some work, great!

My H and I created our bonds thru very deep heavy conversations about lives, selves, cosmos. Tho I promise you he never ever once sat down and said, W I'd like to talk about my feelings and thoughts about the world. They would just unravel like a ball of string if I pulled (instead of pushing me).

[susana4]

I owe you a much longer reply later, but quick question -

Where/how did you and your H FIRST build intimacy and attraction in your relationship? Where did the essence of your bond start, how was it created?

Good question... Sorry for such a long answer!

We work together and he used to be my IT guy. We were friendly and a bit flirty for a couple of years, until he asked me out (I was the first person he ever asked out!).

He says he was attracted to my passion and kindness - and smile/laugh.

In the beginning of dating, we did a lot of different activities. We're both really into trying new things and adventure so I think it was a sense of adventure that really bonded us. We did a lot of dinner dates (where I think we bonded with laughter, also talking about our goals and dreams for the future), and we also did a lot of other things like:
-Bingo hall
-Comedy club (I'd actually never been to standup comedy before and he introduced me)
-Paddleboating
-Hopping on a random bus and seeing where we ended up
-Weekend trip to Slovakia

We basically did something completely new every week and usually something neither of us had done before. We also did do a lot of dinner dates (usually trying a new restaurant each time) and talked a lot but mainly about either our childhoods, or our plans for the future, and a lot about travel.

I have realised that in the lead-up to BD, we fell short on our dates. We were really good at keeping up our commitment to a weekly date night, and we usually did stuff together at the weekend as well, but I think we just got into a state where we were always rushing. Quality time's really important to me (haven't figure out what H's LL is yet but I have the book). We were trying to save money so cut out going for dinner. Whereas before we'd have dinner, and then an activity, we ended up cutting out the dinner and just doing the activity. Instead of going out for dinner, we were eating leftovers on the go (there was actually one night I remember eating leftovers out of Tupperware standing on the freezing street corner over a trash can - cringe!), while we were on our way to whatever activity. I think for me anyway cutting out the dinner meant cutting out on the conversation and my love tank suffered. And it just always felt like we were rushing from one place to another. Not good for intimacy.

You guys still know those dance steps even if you're slumped against the wall not wanting to get out on the floor. You have the gift of time and also - the gift of being in the same house still. I think it's something worth thinking about. Our situations similar, but different. Your H likes to stay on the lighter side sounds like. And he is doing some work, great!

My H and I created our bonds thru very deep heavy conversations about lives, selves, cosmos. Tho I promise you he never ever once sat down and said, W I'd like to talk about my feelings and thoughts about the world. They would just unravel like a ball of string if I pulled (instead of pushing me).

I would love to figure out a way to enter the dance again, I'm just not sure how to do it without pursuit. And one of H's complaints is we spent too much time together, so I'm trying to give him as much space as I can in the same house.

Last week I broke DB rules a little bit and invited H to go geocaching. It was something we'd done once or twice before and it's a bit of an adventure. I had a really good time and I think H did too although he seemed a bit apprehensive at first. He was hugging me a lot by the end of it (lately he gives me a lot of hugs, but nothing more).

Tho I promise you he never ever once sat down and said, W I'd like to talk about my feelings and thoughts about the world. - This made me laugh, thank you for that

[Zelda09]

Susana,

Some might disagree with what I will say, but my regret was that I entered LRT of no pursuit a bit too early before the 180s and Michelle's earlier chapters. The door was not firmly closed on my M (it got slammed when I asked him to just consider re-commit to it though.) Before I pushed that, we were in a space-gives-us-a-chance place that We gradually got to return to when I backed off the topic - he didn't want to return to our M the way it had been. I had a chance to demonstrate some of what he needed changed about us without the pressure of commitment. I pursued those parts without pursuing the relationship.

Despite the purgatory of S, he was still enjoying parts of our contact. You went geocaching- if the door was slammed IMHO he wouldn't have wanted to join you.

The self you describe he fell in love with sounds different than the depressed one you told us about. Being on the other end of that...my depressed spouse left me drained and hopeless and resenting the one directional flow of support. I just knew I couldn't live like that anymore and it came out in unsympathetic tirades.

What if you keep your GAL, give him space as you have been and keep R talks to 0...but...what if you were to pursue (lightly) feeding your R the places it was starving where it used to be healthy? Like the geocaching. Just enjoy each other when there is an opportunity.

What (other than your own identified issues) do you think he wants to see changed? He said he didn't feel like himself...what else?

You still have that great smile. Use it!

[susana4]

Susana,

Some might disagree with what I will say,

Well you'll be happy to hear my DB coach basically just said the same thing as you.

but my regret was that I entered LRT of no pursuit a bit too early before the 180s and Michelle earlier chapters. The door was not firmly closed on my M (it got slammed when I asked him to just consider re-commit to it though.) Before I pushed that, we were in a space-gives-us-a-chance place that We gradually got to return to when I backed off the topic - he didn't want to return to our M the way it had been. I had a chance to demonstrate some of what he needed changed about us without the pressure of commitment. I pursued those parts without pursuing the relationship.

Despite the purgatory of S, he was still enjoying parts of our contact. You went geocaching- if the door was slammed IMHO he wouldn't have wanted to join you.

The self you describe he fell in love with sounds different than the depressed one you told us about. Being on the other end of that...my depressed spouse left me drained and hopeless and resenting the one directional flow of support. I just knew I couldn't live like that anymore and it came out in unsympathetic tirades.

Yeah, I can really see that now, looking back. He must have been so drained. He was really supportive but I can see how he must have bottled it up. Thing is he claims it has nothing to do with him wanting out of the M. Not sure whether to believe him or not.

What if you keep your GAL, give him space as you have been and keep R talks to 0...but...what if you were to pursue (lightly) feeding your R the places it was starving where it used to be healthy? Like the geocaching. Just enjoy each other when there is an opportunity.

This is what my BD coach also suggested.:) Just need to balance the space and the activity.

For my birthday he gave me tickets to a comedy night so we'll be going to that Wednesday (we did this whole awkward dance of "well you don't have to invite me" "oh no, that's ok, do you want to come" "well yes I'd like to see the comedian but you can take someone else if you prefer"). I think I will casually suggest grabbing dinner beforehand.

I actually found an activity the other day that I think he would love, apparently there oldest maze in the world is in our city. The only thing is it would be like a half day or full day activity as we'd have to travel to get there so might be a bit too much.

I might be overthinking here but I worry because of his people-pleasing habits if I invite him to something, he will just say yes (did you worry about that with your H?). After BD when I was still in "fix it" mode, I told him that I would help him become himself and work with him to overcome the fear of people pleasing by asking if he really wanted something like "are you sure you want to do X?" He told me that it didn't matter, he would say yes if he thought I wanted him to, that's what he does with everyone.

What (other than your own identified issues) do you think he wants to see changed? He said he didn't feel like himself...what else?

*Less arguing (or no arguing) - he hates arguing and says we argued too much and it would ruin perfectly good days. I've been working to a goal of no arguing (we did have one when I was drunk), but my BD coach says next time we can work on how to successfully resolve a conflict since they will arise, which I think would be hugely beneficial.

*Spend less time together, do more things independently

*With him not feeling like himself he specifically broke it down to: not spending enough time with his friends and family, not riding his bike, not playing GTA, not going spontaneously for drinks with friends any more

*Me not being happy if he came home late - he said I'd greet him at the door with a frown (true). We'd also argue over him not being able to give me an estimate of when he'd be home when he met friends, or being wildly off on his time estimate.


I've made an effort to be upbeat when he gets home and not start/give in to any arguments. I don't really know how to make him feel more like himself. I've been trying to validate in the thought that that might make him feel more comfortable/accepted in himself.

We've definitely been doing a lot more independently and I've been trying to give him lots of space. But then that makes me feel like we're just getting more and more distant. *sigh* I just looked at his calendar (accidentally, I didn't realise I still had his calendar synced up with mine) and saw he's got weekends away every weekend for the next month apart from this one! See now that makes me feel like he's avoiding me. Ok, that's probably mindreading and I should stop!

You still have that great smile. Use it!
Thanks I will!