Oh, Susana! (3)

[susana4]

Hi Susana,

I can relate. My H gives things and does things for people to make them like him. He idolizes my strength and ambition, yet resents me for it, even yesterday was complaining "you're so effing independent..." He doesn't feel like I accept him for who he is, but he won't define who that person is. Is looking for others to teach him about him, care about his point of view, nurture him, create stability (his words, not mine. Nothing I imagine adults actually expect of one another). But if you ask him what he thinks, he skillfully avoids doing anything but speaking in a father knows best tone of voice about everyone else's motivations and feelings. He said he didn't have room to be himself. Was always feeling like he was a disappointment. Was so stressed out around me.

There's a dynamic common for a lot of us on this board I think. Seems like most of us LBS are self described critical, controlling, over bearing as our spouses might have been underbearing. Ganb8te's thread on Rosenberg's giraffe ears was a huge turning point for me - and in Rosenberg's YouTube videos I also saw my H in his example of a "yes-saying Jackal" - the people pleaser who suddenly bolts bc he's stuffed his own feelings away for too long.

I couldn't find the video but I did read a bit about the giraffe/jackal. Interesting. I actually have Rosenberg's audiobook (bought for myself and H, I'm just starting and I don't know if H has - because one of my 180s is not 'fixing' things like this for him or being his memory) which I've heard a lot of good things about.

I can definitely see my H in that description - like he just stuffed his own feelings so much he didn't even realise they were there...till they all came spilling out! Will have a look at your threads too and catch up on your sitch Zelda.

In many of our situations, we experienced abuse and brought all our great coping skills to repeat familiar feeling dynamics. I realized thru DB and IC introspection I'd become a version of my father I hated, to exercise all that judgement upon my H, bc it felt safe to be on the other end of that instead of victim to it. I think that many 'strong' women, me, my friends with similar childhoods, become so strong we forget how to be vulnerable, how to say we need or want help - with anything!

This is some of the hardest stuff I think anyone can go through. You sound like you are doing all you can, and it's cliche, but everyone here gets stronger (and wiser hopefully) bc it ain't killing us! Hugs. Wishing you as much peace and happiness as you can find this week!

Zelda - thank you, this is so true and really hit home with me as hard as it is to think about. I have lived in fear for so many years of turning into my mother. I frequently asked H if he thought I had, and he always said no. But now I can see that I did in some ways, especially with the critical and controlling tendencies. It makes me so @*£$! angry because I spent several years in IC working on my issues with her, and I guess I thought I was "cured". I really had no clue that I would just repeat those dynamics, I thought that I was self-aware enough I wouldn't. Or that because I'd had C for it, I wouldn't. Or that H would tell me honestly (I don't know whether he was blinded to it too, or if he was just too much into people pleasing to say, he's made very few critical remarks of me ever). Or just that I wouldn't be blinded to it and would see it and stop myself.

But now, I am crying as I write this because I feel sick to my stomach at the thought of it. And terrified, because if I really did become like my abusive mother, and I were my H, I would never forgive me.

[Squiggy]

This is why I love following your threads. I see a lot of myself in you two as well, except the genders are switched. The insight and self-work that is being done in your sitch is reaching out to others as well, and I want you to know that.

It struck me very hard as well to realize I had become like my father in relation to S5. I hated the childhood I had with my father. Once I realized that and began doing 180s, the relationship with S5 began improving dramatically. The same can be said for what you are doing here now. Keep improving and don't stop. I see and respect the deep soul-searching you are doing, susana, and you are killing it!

[susana4]

This is why I love following your threads. I see a lot of myself in you two as well, except the genders are switched. The insight and self-work that is being done in your sitch is reaching out to others as well, and I want you to know that.

It struck me very hard as well to realize I had become like my father in relation to S5. I hated the childhood I had with my father. Once I realized that and began doing 180s, the relationship with S5 began improving dramatically. The same can be said for what you are doing here now. Keep improving and don't stop. I see and respect the deep soul-searching you are doing, susana, and you are killing it!

Squiggy, thank you for your kind words. I needed them after the roller coaster of emotions I've been on today!

When I caught up on your sitch I saw your improved relationship with your son and I was impressed. If anything good has come out of your sitch so far, it's that and you should definitely be proud and happy.

[Complex]

You'll be proud and happy about yourself one day when you read your old sitch Susana.
Btw as far as I'm concerned from what you said how H is talking about S and D there will be a lot more to it. Not sure if he realizes what's coming or if he plans his exit already. But my W is threatening me constantly with action but so far no moves. But it's just a question of time. Real S is absolutely inevitabke at this point
You mentioned H went out a lot and BD came out of the blue. I don't wanna rise concerns but is there a chance he cheated on you with a one night stand or maybe getting very close to AP while partying, which then caused the instant change/catalyst for his inner feelings?
It's just an idea, but the fact that it came out of the blue is kind of weird.
Don't give it too much thought bc in the end it won't matter at all bc no matter what happened, it was on its way and you have to see this as a chance!

[Zelda09]

Hey Susana,

Please don't cry too much, or beat yourself up too much. It's something you have to do, but I hope you don't linger...you are probably in fact pretty well adjusted, and we are all human. Your H had choices he could have made, too! In a good relationship, we all give each other that permission to be imperfect, right? Be kind to yourself as you explore. I doubt you're turning all the way into your mother...I know I don't know you at all from here, but as my IC said to me, "anyone that is aware of the term 'enabling' probably has less to fear from it than most." (This was one of her speeches on not being such a damn hard ass to my H.) Sounds like you've done a lot of work on that front with your mother already and so, even if you do need a fresh look...it's ok. You're you, not her.

About four weeks after my H turned into a cold, angry alien version of himself, I also sat on the floor, crying, miserable in my introspection. On one of our dates, I shared with him a lot of revelations I had about where I realized some behaviors were coming from and what I was going to do to keep them in check. And of course apologies for diminishing him. This brought us closer, temporarily, but he was still angry and had lost faith in the R, M and he made a very conscious decision to pull away for almost 7 weeks of NC. Even after many confusing weekends and good dates, things where things seem normal. In hindsight, I believe if he would have stayed, and we would have had more of those talks without the pressure to be in the M he hated and me sometimes losing it and crying...well, maybe not, there's no way of knowing.

During this NC time he became even angrier. He chose to give up. It's been a long, uphill climb to regain any of that trust, but in the end he suggested he come home for just a few days to get his bearings before finding a place to settle during our S...and just never left and put his ring back on after a week because he said he was feeling hope we could actually be different because I was changing. I had given him space during those 7 weeks, but after he had time to cool off, the real turning points were in being vulnerable, letting it all be about him, remaining calm and cool and in lots of conversation about what had happened to us, being soft despite a whole lot of things that made me angry, giving lover's attention during a trip to see him to talk about us face to face. Questions, nothing about me, just questions and validation (but not the mechanical kind). I went in the spirit of gaining understanding, not trying to give it (which was a huge 180). Showing him I accepted him, his choices, his feelings and saw my own. Kept 'come back to our M talk' to an absolute 1%, and he'd work himself up into enough frustration where he brought up the idea (as an impossible negative) for the first time on that trip. And then we talked about how it could work. I had one trip and one phone conversation a week later to show him there was a me that cared about his feelings more than all my indignant, angry ones, and I could accept why he didn't want to be M anymore. I showed him I was strong, balanced, still sexy and though I never beat him over the head with it, that I was prepared to move on also.

It is not easy right now. He is still angry and struggling as hard as he is trying. And I am struggling with a lot of violated trust and misgivings myself. Feeling like something was irreparably ruined. These days are tests for all the feelings of guilt and sadness, lol, bc I get fresh reminders of what an awful brat he can be, too.

But I firmly believe now what Michelle says in her book about one person changing the dynamic. Our H's looked at us to take leads at one time. Mine said to me after our talk after the fight we had a few days ago - 'when you're happy, I'm happy. When you're angry, I'm angry.'

You say your BD came out of the blue somewhat - are you sure, was there a period even further back, a year or so, when you had the sense you weren't ecstatically happy with each other even if he was still doing H things for you, with you? The OW thing Complex mentions...I think it's possible, but only bc they start looking to the idea of someone else as meeting their needs. It might only be an idea right now. My H shared his thoughts (I wish he hadn't) that only someone who wasn't me could meet his emotional needs. Truthfully I believe they gotta meet their own first, or at least know what they are and how to communicate them. But we can't control that.

You said there are no R talks these days. But have you been able to explore what H was feeling, to show him you can handle those truths without conflict, that you are interested and care about him, independent of trying to save your M?

[Elly4]

Hi Susan, I hope your day is going better. I've been thinking about you a lot recently. I hope you realize how far you have come for yourself and your detaching. I also want to remind you, that when you are feeling guilt, (which I do all the time) you remember that you told me that we have to not worry about their feelings, but what's best for you. That will help everyone in the long run. I think it would be easier if our Hs weren't people pleasers.

[Complex]

Yes please don't feel guilt. he's the one who has changed and wants to leave you!!!!! You are being awesome and work in thibgs, he didn't connunicate well enough and doesn't fulfill his responsibilities for the M.
Never forget that. Whatever you did wrong in the past, you are the one with the ambition to make a difference!!

[Sotto]

Hi Susana

Sorry you've had a rough day. Remember, you may just need to give the ADs a little time to start working for you - and there may be an initial rough period with that, but it should pass soon.

Fact is, none of us have been perfect partners. And who wants a perfect partner anyways? It's important not to beat yourself up about things, Only look at them from the basis of understanding your contribution for the state of your M, in order that you can move forwards.

We all have things that we wished we had seen and done. But that is in the past, and we now only have the present and the future. Better days are just around the corner, so hang on in there - you're doing really well. You may not feel this, but I think you've done a great deal of introspection and it is still early days....so, good for you!

[susana4]

Thanks Toots, Complex, Erin and Zelda - I am feeling a little better now, don't know if the ADs are starting to even out or what. I have been doing a LOT of reading and reflecting today. There's a lot of wisdom on these boards. Will post more in a little bit.

[Squiggy]

Yes, give the ADs some time. In most cases they take 3-4 weeks to fully build up a buffer in your system, which will then level you out.

These boards are such a great resource. Even if things don't work out in our sitch's, it seems like most can't deny that this is a healing place.