I agree. Early on in my sitch, I read about 'stable triangles' where you have LBS, WAS and AP - each a point on the triangle.
WAS gets some needs met by the AP and some by the LBS. AP and LBS both tolerate the situation in the hope that things will change - WAS will choose one of them or the other. But it suits WAS to have both, and so he doesn't choose. He just carries on.
But, you don't have to be a point on that triangle unless you choose to be. You can't control what H may do, but you can control you. If you withdraw, the stability of that triangle is undermined, and pressure is put on the A relationship. Plus you get some space and time to regroup and focus on you...
T 13 M 7 Me 48 H 46 SS 15 BD 7.14 PA D final 5.16 (H filed)
We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
I have done this before though and the result was H breaking up with the OW and coming home to visit, he came home and spent some of his time here online dating (he is not aware that I know this). It also fed into his martyr syndrome - he had given up his OW for the sake of a wife he is not in love with and his children. He hurt the OW and felt bad about this but most likely this was my fault in his mind.
That was over a year ago. However, they got back together again for a while until she put pressure on him to make a decision - he still said that he doesn't want to hurt people he cares about (his wife and children) so she asked him not to contact her again. He agreed to this but checked up on her via a female work colleague who is a friend of hers. He is now in contact with her again and she is allowing it but as far as I know they are not together.
So, as it stands he is seems to be searching for another relationship with a woman who will accept his way of life, i.e. two worlds, his life at home here with his wife and children and his life in Moscow as a single man with no children and no ties. He has met several (some of them are very young, 20's / 30's), he meets them for lunch, breakfast, attends events with them, the cinema, exhibitions, it is not about sex but voyeurism comes into it, sexual innuendo, touching, whatever they will accept.
This seems to allow him to tell me that he is not in a relationship and therefore can come home.
I have no problem asking him not to come home if he is in a relationship but he will say that he is not - what do I say /do then?
In some respects it would be easier if he was with one woman, such as the original OW, in an acutual relationship as he was for the first year, that way I could set a boundary putting pressure on the OW to provide for all his needs and allow the A to come to a natural end. But, the way this is going seems impossible..............
Thanks Toots, I made that choice - not to be a point on the triangle. At that time (see my reply to Cadet) I told him that as he and the OW seemed incapable of making a decision I would make it - I asked him to commit to her and leave me alone, to not come home, I also wished him well and hoped that she could give him what he thought he needed. He, of course didn't tell her any of this, and after a month, he ended the A, saying that while he loved her, he needed to be on his own for a while.
I do believe that she is in the background, ready for him to decide that she is 'enough' for him.
I have all the time, and space I need to focus on me, I have detached to the extent that I don't really want him here while he is behaving like this.
Our son just thinks he is a coward, a master manipulator, running away - escape and avoid - he also feels that we (me and his children are a disappointment to him as is his life here)..............I know it is more than that but I can see his point.
I have joined the gym with a friend, go to weekly yoga classes with my daughter and practice 'mindfullness'. The best is that I have great fun with my girls. I have reconnected with one of my good friends from Uni and I am simply getting on with things. I find joy everywhere, in nature, in other people.
I have a deep sadness for my H and my children - he has no real joy in his life - it is all fake, he wears and has worn so many masks that he doesn't know who he is. He is very stubborn and fatalistic so that when (not if) I tell him that I have had enough he will just accept it, he will think that he deserves it - so sad.............
Hey Sonas, I said that “in a different way” about my GFs story to distinguish between her and the similarities between yours and my. Here you go. You said this about OW:
Originally Posted By: sonas
He seems to have stopped trying to have relationships with much younger woman and wants the original OW back. She is single, divorced a long time, has her own income and is not dependent on anyone. She also seems like a nice person who genuinely cares about H but wants him to sort himself out and end his relationship with me. Maybe she is what he needs and I am not.
So, my GF is a nice person, educated, smart and I love her. However, I never understood why she got involved with a married man. I will start with the current status of that. He divorced his first W and married my GF, and that marriage is still continuing for about 15 years now. Let me tell you that it is not a happy M. I will elaborate as I tell the story.
My GF was 26 when she met her current H, she was divorced, and had 5-year old daughter. They met in one of the Eastern countries, on a project. He is 23 years older. At the time he was still married to his first wife, they have 3 kids. His story was very similar to your H’s. He travelled for work for a long time. Lived in the Middle East for years. His wife was with him until the kids were old enough to start school. She moved back to US with the kids, and he continued to travel. Just like your H, he was coming home every 6-8 weeks for a week or two.
When my GF met him, he told her that the R with his wife was over and that they were pretty much separated. He didn’t tell her that he was not officially divorced. When my GF found out about it, she demanded that he would tell his W about their relationship. Which he did. So, his W knew about my GF’s existence.
My GF also told me, that before her, he had a R with another woman in another country, who he went on vacation with and was visiting once in a while.
So, as you can see, very similar story. He worked overseas, came home to his family, had affairs, and lied. I think he just wanted to have another fling with my GF, but she got serious. There was some dynamic going on for a while, when she told him that she didn’t want to see him anymore, because he was not serious about their R, then he would promise more, and so on. When he was leaving from that project, he had to make a decision. So, he brought her over to the country and started the D process with his first W.
I don’t remember who initiated the D process, but I remember my GF told me what she learnt a few years later. The first W’s layer actually advised her not to rush with the D. He told her to wait it out and that this fling with “young Russian chick” would end on its own. This is actually pretty significant, because it came from a D attorney. I think that the first W was very much fed up with the whole thing, so she signed the D papers.
Then my GF and this guy got married, so she could be legalized in the country. I think if not for that, he would be dragging his feet with this marriage.
I have some more insight and the rest of the story. Need to take a break. I’m not that good of a writer, so bear with me.
M:50 H:52 S28 (my S from previous marriage) M:17 + 3 BD: 06/12 S: 06/12 - H works in another state
Thanks BrightFurture, A very sad but interesting story and I can understand why you are telling it to me. It does give me an insight into what my H's OW is thinking, she is being told many lies but she has chosen to believe everything my H is telling her. I found out about my H's A, he did not tell me and never would have but he told the OW that he had told me himself, she validated him telling him what a 'brave' thing he did - I cannot understand how he accepted her validation knowing it was based on a lie.
However, your GF was very young and the mother of a young child when she met her married man, and while this does not excuse her, it is a little easier to understand how she could be manipulated by an older man. My H's OW is 42, divorced, no children, independant, educated, cultured - what is wrong with her? Why does she hang around, why does she want a relationship with a married man who doesn't seem to want to leave his wife - why has she wasted the last two years on him? Why is she so blind to his lies? She would be disgusted by his interest in porn and online dating, part of me wants to tell her about it but the truth is I don't care about her, she is nothing to me.
The way my H is behaving, I believe that this is all new to him, that while he traveled for work in the past, he was faithful to me, he maintained his honour and integrity, I think I would have known......but maybe not..........
Looking forward to the rest of the story and by the way I love the way you write, it is clear and easy to understand,you can tell a story very well!
Thank you so much for the taking the time to do this, I really appreciate it!!
Take care, Sonas (this is an Irish word (Gaelic) and it means 'happy'.........
I have no problem asking him not to come home if he is in a relationship but he will say that he is not -
what do I say /do then?
Well first of all you know he is lying, because you cant believe anything he says. So if you are looking for him to admit the truth for you to take action, it is highly unlikely that will happen.
YOU can not be in a relationship with him while he is not all in with his relationship with YOU.
You must stop doing anything which is pursuit, or meeting his needs.
TRUST his ACTIONS not his words.
Sorry I know how hard this stuff is.
Here is an update on RosaLinda's sich from a post of her's on Andy's thread
Thanks Cadet, especially for the link to RosaLinda's post, it made me think about what I am or am not doing!
I want to take action, I am ready, the problem I have is 'what action'.
Sometime after BD I told him quite clearly that it was over, that I would move on and wished him the best, he said 'it is not over, I will be back' that was when I decided to 'wait' and to 'support' him as he navigated his way through his MLC. I abandoned all pursuit. I stopped asking when he would be home next.
So, perhaps I should state that he is not welcome home unless and until he wants to recommit to me and his family? This puts aside any issues in relation to OW's, online dating etc. and puts the focus back on our R. But is this not 'pursuit'?
I am in fairly regular contact with him in regard to our financial situation, works to our cottage and some work we have together (from when he worked with me). I don't tend to update him on what our children are doing and I don't engage in small talk - there are times when he tells me what he doing over there (work, weather, an exhibition he went to) but I tend to ignore it. I have not told him that I love him for a long time and I have stopped putting kisses at the end of my emails / texts. I have asked him to address me by name instead of 'hiya' and he has done this.
When he was home for two weeks over Christmas and New Year, it was ok, he seemed depressed, he snapped at me a few times, in a minor way but I let it go and walked away. We went to a New Years eve party in my sisters house (2 hours drive away) - initially he didn't really want to go and I didn't push him on it, but at the last minute he said 'let's go so'. We met his brother and SIL before the party and went to a bar with them and he seemed pleased to meet them, seemed to enjoy it almost. I was upbeat and happy. We walked from there to my sister's. He drank excessively at the party and told various people, including my sister, my brother and my SIL as well as some random people that he was 'Russian' now, that he had 'changed', that he had 'his own life over there', that he loved 'Russia' and was never coming back. He could say this to all these people but will not say it to his son, to his daughters and even to me. My son has tried to talk to him about all of this, but he refuses to engage with him.
My sister told me afterwards that she thought he was acting and behaving very strangely, but that the next morning he was back to himself.
His family and my family have no idea about the OW, the A or anything else that he is doing - he knows this.
But the worst part was, my SIL kept on at him during the night about how he was (I had previously told her that he was depressed without going into any detail - I thought she would understand because my brother suffers from depression). My H told me later that he thought she had 'an agenda' when she was talking to him, that it was like an 'interrogation'. Anyway he told her that he didn't love me anymore'. All my family were shocked and upset for me (I don't like anyone feeling sorry for me and am very private). I could not believe he said this to SIL when he doesn't want to tell our own children or his family.
When I told him what he said, he noted how drunk he (and everyone else) was and was sorry that he had said it. He then talked about how he had worked hard all his life and had nothing to show for it and that he no choice but to make a life for himself in Moscow where he had work, he followed this by saying that he didn't love me but would do his best to look after me and our children. I was gentle with him, not accusatory, just a bit upset which seemed to upset him. I noted that it wasn't right to tell my SIL when our 3 daughter's don't know (only our son knows), he asked me what I want to do, saying that he thinks our youngest still needs 'protection'. I told him that our old M was over but that I believe we could have a new M - he didn't say anything to this.
Our son was so upset at his behavior at the party (he was there too with his GF) and with what he was saying. He believes that he was 'laying the ground' so that he wouldn't look too bad in the eyes of our family when eventually he abandoned us all. He didn't say that he was a liar and a cheater, just that he didn't love me.
I have visited him in Moscow each year around this time (twice so far) and I should be going again in the next few weeks. I think I will go in order to see him face to face and set my boundaries.
I firmly believe that he is in fear of himself and of his choices. Sometime ago, I asked him if he was happy (bearing in mind that his excuse for his A was that he was not happy and that we (me, our children) were not 'enough' for him). He said no, not really, sometimes. He said that happiness is elusive to him mostly, that he knows it is to be found 'within' but that he can't always find it.
I didn't know what to say to him when he said that he didn't love me so I said nothing - what could / should I have said? I believe it is choice he has made due to circumstances and to make him feel a bit better about his A, OW's. I also think that he feels that as he is capable of cheating on me he must not love me.
Cadet, You said 'TRUST his ACTIONS not his words. '. So I suggested in an email that I visit him in Moscow as I have done for the last two years. I told him that I didn't expect him to do anything for me and that I just needed a place to stay............. His actions, he agreed and for the first time he paid for my flights. Leaving this saturday and staying for one week.
I consider this an important week in my sitch, there are many distractions and little privacy when he is home, but over there it is just the two of us.
On each of my previous visits he went out of his way to ensure that we were not alone very often, he worked during the day and usually asked me to meet him somewhere, he never wanted to talk...........
Not sure how to approach this visit. I think the time is over for not talking, considering his relevations to my family but what to say, what to do, while still 'standing'???????????
