Devastated Husband; Need Advice...Part 2

[Pink17]

Hello T,

Super quite, what's up?
Hope you are well, just very busy as you said the long work hours would start.

Take care.
Pink

[TLEE86]

Pink- thanks for the check in.

Yea things have been crazy with work lately, been getting done after midnight every night so it's hectic. Also honestly I don't know what to say anymore.

Nothing has changed. W and I are in constant communication everyday. I just keep thinking about something Calibri said a while ago...

"W wants perks of being M without being M" and "It may be a while before W is ready to have R/M talks because she has to figure herself out first."

This makes so much sense because W has been calling a lot lately because she's stressed and crying and just all over the place with everything, telling me that she tries to be strong all the time but it doesn't work. She is trying to figure herself out and that has to be done before any R talks.

Meanwhile I'm just...doing me and work is keeping me busy. I just feel like everything is stagnant, and nothing changes. Not sure if this is a good place for me to be as far as my relationship with W at the moment or if something needs to change...

[Calibri]

What are you doing when she calls and tells you how stressed she is?

I can't help but wonder if she's looking for you to swoop in and fix it. Her life, your marriage. You. She compares herself and her journey to yours. Her self esteem (or lack there of) seems to be directly tied to you and your life.

I had something else that I wanted to post. I think it had to do with your last post. And I had a thought about your sitch the other day at work, but I'm trying to phrase it in my head so it doesn't come off as being a total [censored]. Hey, practice 180s where you can!

Homework for you (as if you don't have enough to do): why does something need to change? Is that's what's best for you? Or the situation? Think more on that.

I also think you're going to have to think hard about your current position. I know that you not be available due to deployment impacted W and your sitch. But, are you ok with continuing to provide the perks of M to her without getting the same? Just something to think about. I'm not encouraging anything, but I think you need to look at the bigger picture.

[TLEE86]

What are you doing when she calls and tells you how stressed she is?

I empathize with her and tell her I understand and she has a lot going on but I have faith in her that she can do well in XYZ.

I can't help but wonder if she's looking for you to swoop in and fix it. Her life, your marriage. You. She compares herself and her journey to yours. Her self esteem (or lack there of) seems to be directly tied to you and your life.

Maybe. When this first started, she said she doesn't want my advice/opinion/help. Now, thats all she wants..wants me to "just tell her what to do."

And I had a thought about your sitch the other day at work, but I'm trying to phrase it in my head so it doesn't come off as being a total [censored].

Don't try and sugarcoat anything, I'm a big boy, just tell me. I appreciate your thoughts

Homework for you (as if you don't have enough to do): why does something need to change? Is that's what's best for you? Or the situation? Think more on that.

I also think you're going to have to think hard about your current position. I know that you not be available due to deployment impacted W and your sitch. But, are you ok with continuing to provide the perks of M to her without getting the same? Just something to think about. I'm not encouraging anything, but I think you need to look at the bigger picture.

Because I don't know if what I am doing is making things work towards the M. Idk if I am just giving her the best of both worlds, talking to her all the time, letting her get the perks of M without being M. I am ok with this, if it is working towards the M...It shows I am caring/understanding/good listener- all things I was not the past year. But is this actually helping work towards the M? If you're H came to you for all this...would you give him advice/make him feel better if he is just bawling his eyes out? IDK? This is why I wonder if things need to change, because idk if its working towards the M, or just enabling her.

[Calibri]

I empathize with her and tell her I understand and she has a lot going on but I have faith in her that she can do well in XYZ.

Ok, but do you really? Or are you just going through the motions? Because I'm going to be honest, I don't get the impression that you DO have genuine faith in her that she can do well.

Maybe. When this first started, she said she doesn't want my advice/opinion/help. Now, thats all she wants..wants me to "just tell her what to do."

How old was your W when she entered her first M? She's super, super young. Was she ever on her own before M? It sounds like in her life, she went from being someones daughter, to someones wife to someone elses wife, and never had the opportunity to be herself. She's always been something to someone else, and never herself.This my be why she's suddenly out there trying to do this on her own, and when it's hard, looking back to you for guidance, because she's always had someone to fall back on - at least it sounds like.

Don't try and sugarcoat anything, I'm a big boy, just tell me. I appreciate your thoughts

Ok. Here it goes. Why did you get married to your W? Honestly? What about her made you want to enter into a legal/spiritual/romantic commitment with her? What were your expectations of her as a wife? As a person?

Because here's the thing -- and I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm really not. But (and this is where I start to sound like a dick), I get the impression from what you've posted, that you were looking for a "wife" and not a life partner. You liked showing off your wife to your buddies. You've mentioned that you missed having the fact that there was dinner on the table when you got home and the dogs were taken care of. You pride yourself (and I don't think there's anything wrong with that) on being able to provide a lifestyle where your W didn't have to work. But at the same time, you got angry about she didn't understand how hard you were working. You got entitled about YOUR money, YOUR career. You've been critical about how W is handling school, the separation etc.

I can't help but wonder what it is that you want in a partner? Because I'm getting mixed signals. It sounds like you want someone who embodies the "traditional" roles in a marriage. But on the other hand, it sounds like you want someone you respect, and I don't get the impression from your posts that you respect your wife and her choices, because they aren't what you would've done/how you would handle things. I think you want someone who will say "look at this wonderful life you've given me TEE, I'm so grateful for your hard work!" yet, I think you want someone who pulls their own weight.

Sometimes, I wonder if you've thought that you were better than your W because of your accomplishments. And sometimes I wonder if your W can live up to the expectations you have (whatever they may be).

I wonder if you truly get why your W is on the path she's on? We can say we understand, but do you truly, truly understand?

Because I don't know if what I am doing is making things work towards the M. Idk if I am just giving her the best of both worlds, talking to her all the time, letting her get the perks of M without being M. I am ok with this, if it is working towards the M...It shows I am caring/understanding/good listener- all things I was not the past year.

But are you doing them because you want the M to work? Or are you doing them because you've identified that you truly need to change? If your W told you she wasn't coming back, ever. Would you still be supportive to her emotionally? Or would you cut off communication?

If your W were to come back, I think she truly needs to find herself. I think you need to find yourself. My question is, do you love her enough to let her do that? Are you patient enough to work on yourself? Or are you going to be give it up because she's not home where you want her to be? This all ties into my above question. Do you want a "wife" or do you want a life partner?

Maybell and Labug posted on my thread this week about expectations and wanting things to work out. Here's what LaBug said

Hope is tricky because we often hope for something very specific so it's full of expectations. If you hope for what's best for both you and H, then hope can be good. It can get you through the tough times.

Not controlling outcomes gives everyone the freedom to be who they are. It breaks the co-dependency. Re-read the livestrong page on detachment.

And here's what Maybell said:

The other thing about not controlling outcomes is that it makes it so much easier to see what IS rather than what you hope for. That is a good thing.

I would encourage you to think on those thoughts and how they relate to your sitch.

But is this actually helping work towards the M? If you're H came to you for all this...would you give him advice/make him feel better if he is just bawling his eyes out? IDK? This is why I wonder if things need to change, because idk if its working towards the M, or just enabling her.

My H has come to me to talk about a few things in his childhood that have come up in his IC. I've listened and supported him -- because he's going through some rough stuff. I also realize for us to have a shot in the future, that he has to work through his stuff. I've stopped giving advice, as I've found that a)it can be construed as controlling and b) for my H, it really deflects him from working through the problem on his own.

--
Thoughts?

[TSquared2]

Because here's the thing -- and I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm really not. But (and this is where I start to sound like a dick), I get the impression from what you've posted, that you were looking for a "wife" and not a life partner. You liked showing off your wife to your buddies. You've mentioned that you missed having the fact that there was dinner on the table when you got home and the dogs were taken care of. You pride yourself (and I don't think there's anything wrong with that) on being able to provide a lifestyle where your W didn't have to work. But at the same time, you got angry about she didn't understand how hard you were working. You got entitled about YOUR money, YOUR career. You've been critical about how W is handling school, the separation etc.

I can't help but wonder what it is that you want in a partner? Because I'm getting mixed signals. It sounds like you want someone who embodies the "traditional" roles in a marriage. But on the other hand, it sounds like you want someone you respect, and I don't get the impression from your posts that you respect your wife and her choices, because they aren't what you would've done/how you would handle things. I think you want someone who will say "look at this wonderful life you've given me TEE, I'm so grateful for your hard work!" yet, I think you want someone who pulls their own weight.

Sometimes, I wonder if you've thought that you were better than your W because of your accomplishments. And sometimes I wonder if your W can live up to the expectations you have (whatever they may be).

I wonder if you truly get why your W is on the path she's on? We can say we understand, but do you truly, truly understand?

These are some very good questions to be explored, regardless of answer.

What kind of man do you want to be?

[TSquared2]

I empathize with her and tell her I understand and she has a lot going on but I have faith in her that she can do well in XYZ.

The bolded above usually earned me some spew from stbxw, along the lines of:

- I'm not her
- I don't have her history
- I couldn't possibly understand fully because of the above
- and I have that "Y" chromosome

And she was right.

She "heard" it as patronizing. Parental.

And she was right.

Something to noodle over...

[TLEE86]

Ok, but do you really? Or are you just going through the motions? Because I'm going to be honest, I don't get the impression that you DO have genuine faith in her that she can do well.

I have genuine absolute 100% faith that she can do well. She is incredibly smart but does not give herself enough credit. What I get frustrated at is that she is so indecisive that she never commits to anything long enough to even give it a chance to prove she can do well. Just had an insight. W has always known that she is pretty and can get whatever she wants with appearances. She doubts her own intelligence. It is no surprise now, that she takes compliments about her intellect/mind more heartily than compliments about her looks because that is where she lacks self-esteem

How old was your W when she entered her first M? She's super, super young. Was she ever on her own before M? It sounds like in her life, she went from being someones daughter, to someones wife to someone elses wife, and never had the opportunity to be herself. She's always been something to someone else, and never herself.This my be why she's suddenly out there trying to do this on her own, and when it's hard, looking back to you for guidance, because she's always had someone to fall back on - at least it sounds like.

Hit the nail on the head C. W was 18 when she entered her first M. She went from her moms house, to first M, to me. She has said this multiple times. This journey she is on is just as much about finding herself as it is about our M issues.

Why did you get married to your W? Honestly? What about her made you want to enter into a legal/spiritual/romantic commitment with her? What were your expectations of her as a wife? As a person?

I can't help but wonder what it is that you want in a partner? Because I'm getting mixed signals. It sounds like you want someone who embodies the "traditional" roles in a marriage. But on the other hand, it sounds like you want someone you respect, and I don't get the impression from your posts that you respect your wife and her choices,

You didnt come off as a dick. Im glad you said what you said. Very VERY thoughtful question. I married my W because she is everything I am not. And she embodies what I want to be. Don't care about what other people think of you, only how you think of yourself. Personality wise, she is almost a polar opposite of me and I fell in love with that. She is spontaneous, I am very methodical. She is impulsive, I overthink things. She is the life of the party, I am an introvert. I admire her personality. She lives her life very carefree and always just seemed very upbeat and happy. I made myself miserable because I overthink things and over analyze everything. It was so refreshing to see someone who "made their own happy." And that rubbed off on me. More importantly, I married her because I knew that there is no one else out there that could humble me, where I would do anything for her, give up my stuff for her so she could be happy. This is why I failed. Because I stopped doing this. It is no surprise she thought I was a different person.

I do want the traditional roles in a marriage. What I wanted in a partner was someone who put our relationship above everything else, to show me that WE were the most important thing. Not necessarily put my happiness above hers, but put our M first, and everything else second. Someone who I knew that I would do the same for. Again, I just failed for a year.

Sometimes, I wonder if you've thought that you were better than your W because of your accomplishments. And sometimes I wonder if your W can live up to the expectations you have (whatever they may be).

Not going to lie, this comment bothered me. Not necessarily because of what was said, but because you've said this before. And I don't think this at all. In anyway. Screw my accomplishments, they are not that great to begin with. I don't know why or how I am coming off like I think I am better then my W. If you think this, she must too. Please tell me HOW you are getting this. I don't think it at all. She is a better, more selfless, respectful and all in all a good person. I am not nearly as considerate or thoughtful as she is, not just in the M, but just as a person overall. I sincerely respect how selfless and considerate she is in everything. Again, I admire this part of her personality and I can only wish I was like that.

But are you doing them because you want the M to work? Or are you doing them because you've identified that you truly need to change? If your W told you she wasn't coming back, ever. Would you still be supportive to her emotionally? Or would you cut off communication?

This isn't a fair question. I am doing it for both. Because I know I truly need to change. I have certain qualities that I am not proud of at all. And I told her these qualities (temper/anger) when we met. And I am still fighting to change it. But obviously I also want the M to work. If you are asking if I am solely doing it just to make the M work, I am not. Because my W has told me once, when she first left, that she would never come back and we are getting a D. Even though she is "not sure what she wants now" and D is not being discussed, I still am trying to change, because I hated those qualities about myself and I want to get rid of them. But again, obviously I want the M to work.

If your W were to come back, I think she truly needs to find herself. I think you need to find yourself. My question is, do you love her enough to let her do that? Are you patient enough to work on yourself? Or are you going to be give it up because she's not home where you want her to be? This all ties into my above question. Do you want a "wife" or do you want a life partner?

I want my W to be my life partner. I do not just want someone to fill the roles of a W and play house with me. I want my W to be my life partner. Again, I fully agree that she needs to find herself, and I need to keep working on myself. NO, i am not going to give it up because she is not home right now. If I ever say I am, I am lying to myself.

The bolded above usually earned me some spew from stbxw, along the lines of:

- I'm not her
- I don't have her history
- I couldn't possibly understand fully because of the above
- and I have that "Y" chromosome

And she was right.

She "heard" it as patronizing. Parental.

And she was right.

TSquared. I agree. I actually feel really uncomfortable telling her I understand stuff because I am not in her shoes. I understand some of it, like working long hours, but I do not truly understand what she is feeling. I think instead of saying I understand, I will just validate her and empathize with her. Because THAT I get. I get why she is feeling the way she does, and why she is stressed.
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C, Tsquared, thanks for your responses. Gave me something to really think about, and I am going to think about them some more, post my thoughts a little later.

[TSquared2]

Hey T,

Just some general thoughts here from my time here. Calibri is giving you some excellent questions/things to ponder, and I see you are giving them some good neuron time. I relate to you and your sitch, though my stbxw was/is in mid-life crisis with a lot of other things going on, there is the common theme of her needing to accomplish something on her own. And given your background, you know something of duty and honor.

Mine did it at 45, after 24 years together, there may be a blessing in that your W is doing it now, I'm thinking it may be easier to start over at 28 than 50, but maybe not, idk.

I initially came to DB looking for how to save my M, what I discovered is that I needed to save myself first.

This is tough stuff.

But, an amazing opportunity for you to make this one of many defining moments of your life. I know you are familiar with the Stockdale Paradox and the main tenet:

This is a very important lesson. You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end—which you can never afford to lose—with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.

Those brutal facts not only include the spouse, the M, but also ourselves.

Know this: No one is ever 100% responsible for the problems in the relationship. It takes 2 to have a healthy relationship, and the responsibility is split 50/50.

You mission here is to figure out and own your 50%. Her 50% is on her.

A healthy, self-aware spouse would have said, "Hey T, I don't think this is working for me, we should get MC and work through it".

But she didn't.

We all, everyone, do the best we can with what we know at the time.

The best use of our time here, imo, is to learn better, so we do better. And I believe that requires digging into ourselves, facing our own bad habits, the why's of what motivates us, what our fears are, and the underlying ROOT FEAR that generates those fears, which influence our decisions and behaviors.

This journey that W has set you on, can be the one of the most rewarding, defining times of your life, IF you do the work and make it so.

As painful, soul crushing, as my stbxw's MLC was for me, I wouldn't trade the growth and man I have become for anything. I truly am grateful for her MLC and for her leaving, NOW. When I first started on this journey, I wouldn't have believed I would EVER think that.

Believe, KNOW, that if you do the work, regardless of whether your M is saved, you will be successful.

I see strength, class, honor and dignity in you, that is what resonates with me.

Take the "red pill" and dig into yourself, you'll thank yourself later, trust me.

Be sure to be good to yourself and get in some GAL and let the sitch be put on the back-burner every now and then. You do need R&R to be your best.

You got this...

Make a great weekend!

[TLEE86]

I initially came to DB looking for how to save my M, what I discovered is that I needed to save myself first.

I have heard this many times, save yourself first. To be honest, I still don't entirely know what it means. What I come up with every time is that in order to save my M, I need to work on myself, and prove I can live without my W, so that no matter what happens, I'll be ok. I am not there. Sometimes I feel like I am doing ok, but in reality I'm not. C has called me out on this before. That I am going through the motions of living life but Im not really living it. More just...doing what has to be done and hope my W come to her senses. I don't know yet how to change this. My motivation is ZERO to really go and do something just for me. Work continues to just consume me.

Know this: No one is ever 100% responsible for the problems in the relationship. It takes 2 to have a healthy relationship, and the responsibility is split 50/50.

You mission here is to figure out and own your 50%. Her 50% is on her.

I do realize this now. At first I took 100% of the blame. Now I realize, there were things she could have voiced more clearly, or DIFFERENTLY than how she did. DB rule, its insanity to do the same thing over and over and expect a different result. I admit I am pretty dense sometimes when it comes to really understanding how W felt. But I recognize that she could have tried a different approach if I wasn't getting it. Her 50% is on her. When this first started, I had revelation after revelation of my mistakes. Now, it seems I don't have as many and just reflect on the ones I already had.
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Lately I have been thinking about something C said a while back. I was complaining that W and I are in constant friendly communication and that she leans on me all the time for support. But nothing is changing. C asked me, why does anything have to change?

Idk really. Im not sure if where I am right now is a good place to be with W. If this is where the marathon really starts. The dust has settled, we are on good terms and talking, and now we just figure ourselves out and see what happens.

I have been feeling for a while...."now what." What happens now. What's the next step. Idk? Is this where the marathon actually begins?

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Work continues to frustrate me. And I am getting more and more turned off by it. It is such a huge part of my life and I have sacrificed so much for it and now it seems I am not getting the benefits I feel I am entitled to. Case in point: I was told the other day I won't take command until almost a year from now. That there are a few people here that will take command before me because they have been here longer. Even though my boss admits that they are not as qualified and is not his first choice. WTF? So basically what you are telling me is that I went to XYZ schools and continuously tried to better myself to give me a leg up, but I didnt even need to go because I don't have as much time in this unit as they did? So why did I even bother to go? Sounds like I should have just came here earlier and I would have gotten command faster because apparently time matters more than qualifications.

Sometimes I wonder if its time to move on to something different. I told myself Id stay in until I no longer was happy, and I am not happy with it anymore. Obviously current sitch plays a large role but at least in the civilian world, a crappy day ends at 5 or whatever time is set. In the Army, it never ends. Grass is always greener?