I agree, when you're asking those questions, some of DB's answers don't scratch the itch just right, if at all. But can you imagine labug or someone answering you with something definitve like "after 6 months" or something sappy like "when you see a glimmer in his eye"? Lol i can't, and that's why I would spin circles in my head with that question, even though I rarely (if ever) asked it here. I wanted to hear something definitive, almost like a date on the calendar I could circle, but I already knew that the vets would 2x4 that hope out of the park (and rightfully so)
Sis does have her awesome H with her, and her dog. Since they're only there another 6 weeks, they'll probably survive plus she is very friendly and will almost surely pick up a couple of acquaintances if she hasn't already
Last edited by Card29; 01/10/1503:31 AM.
Me 38, WAW 30 D11 (former marriage) S2 T 8 years M 3 years BD 8/20/23 S 8/20/23
S, here's my take. First let me say that there are no hard and fast rules. Each person, each situation, each personality is different.
The common consensus, though, is this. You will know, without a doubt, when he is looking towards reconnecting. And the truth is that storing your marriage safely away, for me, means that you will always remember the old marriage. But it will never be that marriage again. And truthfully, you wouldnt want it to be.
When you pursue, you are telling them that you dont hear them. You are saying, I know what you said, but, it doesnt matter what you want, what matters is what I want. They need to feel heard. That honors the marriage.
When they feel like they are not being heard, it frustrates them. You dont have to like it, but, you do have to respect how he feels at this time.
They have to see that the changes are real. They have to see they are consistent over time. They have to see that once you are not in their life and they are still not happy, that it wasnt you.
Thats not to say you didnt contribute to problems in your marriage, because we all have. But in order for them to gain perspective, they have to follow their path.
I know it all seems like a game. But the truth is that dbing is a way to live your life. It could save you and sometimes it saves marriages. I believe it gives the best chance of that.
He cant move forward while looking over his shoulder at you. You cant move forward while looking at him.
It really is best to let this play out. It's best to figure out you. Find you and your worth.
Then if he looks towards you, you can decide what you want from a position of strength.
I wouldnt worry right now about when you should say something. You are far away from any of that.
He has to see you moving forward...and you need to be. That doesnt mean moving on or giving up. It means living your life for you.
S, here's my take. First let me say that there are no hard and fast rules. Each person, each situation, each personality is different.
The common consensus, though, is this. You will know, without a doubt, when he is looking towards reconnecting. And the truth is that storing your marriage safely away, for me, means that you will always remember the old marriage. But it will never be that marriage again. And truthfully, you wouldnt want it to be.
When you pursue, you are telling them that you dont hear them. You are saying, I know what you said, but, it doesnt matter what you want, what matters is what I want. They need to feel heard. That honors the marriage.
When they feel like they are not being heard, it frustrates them. You dont have to like it, but, you do have to respect how he feels at this time.
They have to see that the changes are real. They have to see they are consistent over time. They have to see that once you are not in their life and they are still not happy, that it wasnt you.
Thats not to say you didnt contribute to problems in your marriage, because we all have. But in order for them to gain perspective, they have to follow their path.
I know it all seems like a game. But the truth is that dbing is a way to live your life. It could save you and sometimes it saves marriages. I believe it gives the best chance of that.
He cant move forward while looking over his shoulder at you. You cant move forward while looking at him.
It really is best to let this play out. It's best to figure out you. Find you and your worth.
Then if he looks towards you, you can decide what you want from a position of strength.
I wouldnt worry right now about when you should say something. You are far away from any of that.
He has to see you moving forward...and you need to be. That doesnt mean moving on or giving up. It means living your life for you.
I think I need to print this out and remind myself of it every day until I get back to the good place I was at over the summer.
40s 2teens M14Y BD-10/12/13 rec-1/14 BD2-5/14 rec2-9/14 EA disc-10/14 4/15-BD 3 and triangulation ensues Served with D6/15 MS forced to leave7/15 D agreement signed 8/16 final 5/17
After reading About Maybell's night, I can't help but ponder when that conversation will go down for me. I fear it'll go down similarly and I want to have half as much grace and strength to navigate it as she does. Therefore, ONWARD!
Ss, I want to clarify something here for you.
I do NOT want to be divorced. I do NOT want to be divorced from the man I'm currently married to.
But I DO want a marriage that is rich, collaborative, close, committed, and happy. That supports both of us and also my children.
My conversation with my STBX last night made it very clear that that is not possible with him. Also that it won't be possible with him for years, or maybe ever. It's not possible partly because he isn't capable of giving it and partly because I can no longer trust him to want to be the sort of person who is like that in a relationship. He made choices he hasn't fully owned (the one night stands) and although he "doesn't want to be that guy," he has no idea who he DOES want to be or how to get there.
I strongly believe that I deserve the kind of relationship I've always wanted, and that I am capable of doing my part to make that kind of relationship happen, if I have a willing and able partner. I wish my STBX were that guy. He's not.
So divorce is sad, but right. It's hard, but it's right. I don't want it, but it's right. Last night wasn't about him telling me that he was going to divorce me. It was about us talking through what had happened, where things stand, and agreeing that it was the next step on our path because we can't meet in a relationship that makes us both safe and happy.
I decided to go have that conversation (rather than asking for it in an email) because that's the kind of person I want to be in all my relationships. Someone who can be honest, face hard stuff, and set the tone for a good go-forward relationship (or the respectful end to one). If I end up with the sort of relationship with Mr. Fantastic that Betsey has with Mr. Wonderful, then I'll know I did the best I could.
I do love him and I will always know him. That's pretty much of a win. Maybe I'll be lucky enough to see him grow into the sort of person I always thought he was. But you also had a front row seat to what a struggle it's been to get to this place. This hasn't been about grace. Mostly it's been about keeping moving forward, learning about my boundaries and how to enforce them, and praying and praying and praying for clarity. I would say there's been precious little grace getting to this point.
I was very fortunate that I was able to have the sort of conversation and closure that i got last night. I hope you get that too, regardless of the outcome. Even if you don't, though, I hope you will keep an eye on the land beyond the lighthouse. Some of your thinking about that land should be about who you want to be in your relationships -- and then BE that person in all of them, even when it's hard. It really isn't so much about what HE does as who YOU are. If you can practice doing that, then whether your separation ends in reconciliation or divorce, you will have the peace of knowing you did the best you could.
THAT's how long you keep that relationship in the box on the shelf.
Me42, H40 D12, S8, S7 A revealed: 7/13 Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15
Ur and labug, thank you. Yes, I'm not really looking ahead so much as getting a bearing on where I am. And I'm where I need to be. At least for now.
Maybell, thank you for writing that all out. You deserve a rich, loving, committed and collaborative marriage and I understand where you're coming from when you say you don't want to divorce this man.
I disagree with your statements about grace. You have it in spades, at least from my perspective.
Ugh, I hate that icky feeling that I get sometimes that comes from confusion and insecurity after a talk with H.
Don't worry... it wasn't a R discussion.
We met at Starbucks because he missed D and wanted to see her just for a quick hug. We got to talking about D's upcoming testing. He asked me how much it was estimated to cost. I told him. He seemed irked and I told him it was pretty standard. He went on to talk about how much he thinks psychologists are a racket and they just want to take people's money and they're happy to keep you coming back week after week just to collect your money and how I was falling into their trap by pursing that with D.
I was confused. He was FINE about testing D a month ago when we first talked about it. He was even fine about it two weeks ago when I was finishing up the application. I emailed the application in and CC'd him and he still said nothing. Now he apparently feels like it's a racket.
He stated that he felt like I was happy to spend "his" money for no true direction for D when it's something she would likely outgrow in puberty.
He went on to talk about how he hated that D was in a private school and that she should be in public school which wouldn't cost "him" any money and she'd likely be "fine".
I reminded him that WE agreed to put her in private school because our local schools are not that good and she needs a much smaller class size than can be provided in the local public schools.
He said, "Oh she'll be fine".
How quickly he forgets.
And apparently I'm all about spending "his money".
He went on to indicate that he was a much more involved father now because *I* wasn't in the way to keep him from being one.
oh really? Did I keep him from driving D to school? Did I keep him from picking her up? Did I prevent him from knowing her teachers name, her social troubles, knowing what piano piece she's working on? Did I keep him from being involved in her extracurricular activities? Did I keep him from helping with homework? Did I keep him from making her meals? Did I keep him from putting her to bed, talking with her, learning what her favorite things are?!
I owned a lot in that conversation. Nothing about our relationship because that's not what the discussion was about but I tried to be level headed about our collective approach to D's testing. He didn't budge at all. No compromise. No give at all.
His opinion I listened to. His view point, his perspective.
He listened to mine as well. But then very soon thereafter belittled it, condemned it and basically affirmed that it was silly, naive and overly trusting.
These are things I've NEVER been accused of before in my entire life.
He owed up to nothing. He copped to nothing. He admitted to nothing.
Nothing.
My fault for not allowing him to be an involved parent? Talk about rewriting history.
All this "wrongness" would have put me into a tailspin last month. Now? Now I'm just confounded. Seriously confused and unsure what to think. What to do.
His perspective is so skewed! I can't set him straight, I know that. His perspective is his perspective but he seriously believes all these horrible things about me that just aren't true.
This is where detachment is your friend. You can step back, evaluate as you did, and decide the best way forward for your d. Using your detachment to evaluate the best way to get what you need from your H.
The idea that she'll outgrow all this stuff in puberty is laughable. But what can you do? He's going around his boulder in his own way. So how can you solve for this while accepting that this is the person you have to work with?
I'm guessing that if you carry on he'll kind of just notice without taking much action.
BTW, I notice that a lot of anxious parents get defensive and go into denial about these things when they're anticipating this sort of evaluation. Even the great ones worry that a diagnosis will somehow turn their child into the diagnosis rather than their child. They sometimes let their fear keep them from seeing the diagnosis as a tool rather than a sentence.
Does reframing his comments help with that?
Me42, H40 D12, S8, S7 A revealed: 7/13 Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15
Ss, you're dealing with someone who needs to DB his own life, like you have. The difference is he is NOT doing the work on himself. It's obvious he has not spent much, if any, time in introspection. Do you think he's still miserable? And if so, is he still blaming it on you?
From what I've heard, many WAS's eventually realize that the LBS was not the source of their unhappiness. But just from personal experience (extended family, etc), I know that not all of them do. Some spend the rest of their days believing their life was ruined by some guy 20 years ago. When he starts speaking in "absolute negatives", you have to trust in your own self-work and all of the honest, deep, sometimes painful questions you've had to ask yourself. You are owning what you should own. Don't buy any more than that no matter how much he tries to sell it to you. Also, you did a great job not engaging with the argument! You know exactly where that road leads, and it certainly isn't "ah, I see your point, Ss06. That is a fair statement."
Last edited by Card29; 01/12/1504:03 AM.
Me 38, WAW 30 D11 (former marriage) S2 T 8 years M 3 years BD 8/20/23 S 8/20/23
Well, the fact that I didn't spin out of control after this conversation is either a sign that I'm detaching or that I'm getting tired of his chit... same thing? LOL
I can understand worrying that the diagnosis will define D rather than D being D and this being just a part of her... but I think he's more skeptical about any diagnosis actually being any help to us with her behavior or finding the right way to properly educate/challenge her. He's SUPER anti-therapy... yet he sees a therapist.
It's just another reason why he's not up for going to marriage counseling. "what are they going to do for us?"
He sees almost everything at adversarial odds. I am in favor of finding out what is going on with D - all of it. He is in favor of not spending money. He hates psychologists, I think they are useful but there are a lot of bad apples.
plus she is very friendly and will almost surely pick up a couple of acquaintances if she hasn't already