Busting this Divorce - 90 Days NC #5

[HPoirot]

Hello MCS, Faith and Calibri.

Thanks MCS. I'm sorry your W is so negative about speaking with you. That must really hurt. Does it help you detach or make it harder? My W would love a friendly talk everyday I'm sure. It would be painful for me though and it is hard for me to understand how she can even ask me to talk. I guess, from her side, it's hard for her to understand why I would want her and our M back.

Calibri thank you for checking up on me. Yes faith can be a hard thing when you feel overwhelmed. I know exactly what I have to do with DB... confident, content, busy guy. I don't have to do it for long around W. Then I don't. If I had real faith... then I wouldn't be at all angry. I would just be naturally friendly with W.

Hello Karma. Yes I don't want at all to be the bitter angry husband. If he wasn't bitter and your husband did DB... would you have given him a second look? I'm happy to hear about your daughter and that you and your husband came together for her.

OK putting aside anger today. I'm going to see my son play basketball. That is my focus. Just act as if I'm having a good day and great life around W today. I will just observe any attempt my W makes to be friendly. I will have good PMA.

Onward.

[Calibri]

Two things of note today -- and then I'm going to leave you alone. I feel like I've been poking at you with a stick.

1) I wonder if W feels that S12 will be ok with everything because she turned out "ok" with her parents divorce. When thinking about perception, I pause with this. I knew friends, when growing up, who were horrified at the thought of their parents divorcing. My own sister has been upset because my mom and step-dad hit a really nasty patch last year and looked like they were heading for divorce. Because I've always had divorced parents, or separated parents (my mom and step-dad seperated for 5+ years) it's my "normal" per say. I survived it, so I feel others. That's my perception and in turn, my reality. But for others, they don't have that view point. Maybe that's how W is "justifying" for lack of better words, her behavior. I dunno. Just a thought.

2. Actually have a good day today. Don't pretend. I know that's hard to wrap your mind around, but seriously, make it a great day. A former boss of mine, was ALWAYS in a great mood. Always having a good day. And then his wife was diagnosed with terminal cancer and we expected his mood to plummet. You know what? It didn't. He remained positive, upbeat and in a great mood -- at least in public. I asked him about it once, and he told me that every day was a great day -- because he woke up alive. He had another day with his W, and an opportunity to make a difference. He also said that it took more energy (for him) to be in a bad mood, rather than a good mood.

It impressed the hell out of me.

Anyway, two thoughts. Enjoy S12's game today.

[Wonka]

HP,

Get in the mindset of really enjoying watching S12 play ball. Smile, laugh, relax....be YOU.

[happy1]

I asked him about it once, and he told me that every day was a great day -- because he woke up alive. He had another day with his W, and an opportunity to make a difference. He also said that it took more energy (for him) to be in a bad mood, rather than a good mood.

It impressed the hell out of me.

Lesson for all!

[25yearsmlc]

HP

you have a lot to take in. But please, do that. Don't just move on to the next issue b/c

THESE ARE THE issues now, i.e. your son's welfare AND the status of your interactions with your w.

Hello claire, Calibri, and MCS. S12 is in bed now.

MCS, you're talking about the conversation I had with W on the phone? I don't know what happened. I'm writing what I'm feeling.

Hello claire. Those are very sobering examples and yes death is horrible. Somehow, at least for me, death, maybe b/c it's an irreversible one time event, is easier to accept than continuing betrayal that can be changed.


I think It's easier for most LBSers to imagine being widowed, b/c then they would not feel Rejected.

My sister was abandoned by her first h. She said at the time that she'd prefer being a widow b/c then she would "get sympathy and not feel so much humiliation." Her wounded ego was her problem.
BTW, that particular sister never did look at or own her own part in the divorce -b/c her h left her for OW. That way, she felt more victimized and "right"...which is too bad, b/c she's still in the same type of interacting in her newer R's...

I hope you won't repeat her pattern...


And yes that is the issue that I stick on... the thing that I put in the way of doing something as simple as being cordial to another human being that I've known for 20 years. That is what wakes me up at 3:30 in the morning. That is the problem I have to solve or get over minute to minute.

If that was simply gone... this would be different for me. Forgiveness I see clearly now is hard for me in the absence of remorse. I'm sure that means it's not forgiveness.

Forgiveness is all, completely, about YOU. It literally has nothing to do with her.

Yeah, I know you are shaking your head. Seriously! I said the same thing.

But here's the deal. Her feeling remorse for an A and for her part in the marital problems--yes that would be necessary for a reconciliation.
it's Not needed for you to forgive her.

Forgiveness means, in part, you Letting go of your victim status and letting go of your scorecard. It means Not letting your wife's transgressions occupy so much space in your head/heart.

She does not have to know you forgave her b/c it's not about her. IT's about you.

I could elaborate but I think you need to just take some of this in...first.


So, I don't accept someone who has wronged me without seeing remorse or at least seeing them pay.

Yes indeed the desire for revenge IS a character flaw of yours. Hope you'll get past it really soon b/c it's actually a crippling flaw and you'll never, ever have a successful marriage or even a close friendship if you appoint yourself judge
AND executioner

(which is exactly what someone who "needs" revenge is doing)

no one will survive their friendship with you. You'll punish them, or wish to, whenever your feelings are hurt...that's not a friendship most adults care to have. And it had no place inside a family or marriage, imo.

I used to call it "justice" but eventually I realized that was my spin on me just wanting to punish and calling it 'fairness".

I think it's partly a spiritual issue, so maybe a cleric you know could help.

That is the character flaw I'm not so well dealing with.

So Calibri yes, when my W is describing how S12 is feeling... she should be upset b/c it's upsetting.

She IS upset. Does that make it "Fair" enough for you?


She also felt desperate enough to leave the marriage. Sadly, it was her way of coping with an untenable situation. You keep veering away from looking at it that way, but it's key here. EMPATHY is key.


Her acting businesslike or like nothing is wrong or like supermom is what bothers me b/c there's no remorse showing for what she's doing.

Stop mind reading. STOP mind reading. Whenever she reveals her sadness, you think she's wrong b/c she "should just come home" but when she hides it, you think she's wrong b/c she's not paying for her sins...

Hey, that is NOT an attractive package you are wrapping up for her. Who'd want to come home to that? You sound so judgmental and critical there's no way she'll believe that she can come home.

You are Not keeping the road home, paved & smooth.

IF I were your wife, I'd assume that if we tried to reconcile, you'd hold the A over my head, or throw it in my face every time we argued. I would think you'd believe I owed you so much, that disagreeing with you, would be "unacceptable" to you.

I don't think I"d believe you were doing serious soul searching to own your part.

I think I'd fear that the marital problems that compelled me to leave and hurt my only son, would remain or return quickly.

If she asked to come in the condo for dinner like nothing was wrong... I'd throw her the hell out. But if she hung her head and showed remorse... then sure have some lasagne.

Wow, that sure sounds appealing. I wonder why she hasn't come to you, tail between her legs and begged for forgiveness...

Why do you think she hasn't done that, HP?


My W is having an A and, while sad and conflicted and maybe torn, is not remorseful. Is accepting sending her son to therapy and hearing him say terrible things to her and being a part time parent. She's accepting thinking that her H hates her and let him take her son and leave her home.

Well, HP, what choice does she have? I mean, you act as if you hate her. You've made it clear that the humiliation you would require from her (which you call "remorse") is something, evidently, she cannot do. Maybe she feels she has earned the right to an A.

((Almost every woman I know who has had an A, believes she deserved to have it b/c a critical element in her marriage was missing.))

I know is that when a woman with a child leaves a marriage for any reason, it sure must be a biggie to her.


Is accepting schlepping her son for hours in traffic to school after he didn't get a good nights sleep b/c crying baby. Is accepting potentially ruining her and her family's financial future. Is accepting that she has no home when there is a home right here with people who want her here.

wait, who is it that wants her home? Not you...

You mean your son? Ah, but you made it clear he doesn't get to be with her in the home b/c of the A...and lack of sufficient remorse in your eyes.

Even wonder if maybe she's not showing you her pain b/c it gets her nowhere - and makes it harder on your/her son? NOW She knows he needs to see her pain so he knows she cares about him.

Who gave him the idea that if his mom isn't overtly mourning, that she must be okay with all of this?

But I guess one person here... me... doesn't want her enough to act cordial for 2 minutes.

OR

Doesn't want his son to feel better, enough to overcome his desire to "make her pay".

Doesn't want her (OR HIS SON'S PEACE)

enough to forgive her or even act like he forgives her for the length of a basketball game.

Your mistake here^ is significant. No one thinks being cordial = forgiveness, (except you.)

You must remedy this mistaken belief, fast.

Being courteous b/c you are co-parents will remain impossible if you think it's "Giving HER" something. It's not. It's giving your son something and it's being an adult.

have you ever been courteous to a rude boss? Or accepted something you did not agree with, with civility? Or must you continue in your protests, ad infinitum?

Life is short HP....

Or he doesn't have enough faith to believe that doing so will get him what he wants. To not be rejected by his W for someone else.

Ouch.

So you believe that being courteous or cordial to your wife in front of your son, means you are going out on a limb? What are you risking?

Maybe you think it's risking rejection but That's only because you attach expectations (= "won't get him what he wants"...)

It's supposed to be about your behavior around your son/wife, and not putting strings on that. Your expectations are again getting you in trouble.

Being polite to her, is not a 'reward" to her. It's just mature behavior. I don't know that I can explain it better.

[claire7]

he told me that every day was a great day -- because he woke up alive. He had another day with his W, and an opportunity to make a difference. He also said that it took more energy (for him) to be in a bad mood, rather than a good mood.

This is so key. My mom just had a birthday. She was focused on being upset about how old she is. "Oh, great, another birthday. I don't even want to think about it."

She *could* choose to think, "oh great! Another birthday! I got to be on this earth another year...to see my children and granddaughter grow older...to experience life! "

Happiness is a choice.

[25yearsmlc]

Hello MCS, Faith and Calibri.

Thanks MCS. I'm sorry your W is so negative about speaking with you. That must really hurt. Does it help you detach or make it harder? My W would love a friendly talk everyday I'm sure. It would be painful for me though and it is hard for me to understand how she can even ask me to talk. I guess, from her side, it's hard for her to understand why I would want her and our M back.


I doubt she has trouble understanding that. I think she has trouble understanding how you could have treated her the way you did inside the marriage and now are so upset that it's over.

I'm Not blaming you for the marriage problems (or at least not all of them).

I'm reminding you that you are not accurate in your mind reading. For her to have left the marriage and her son, means something important to HER, was missing. As long as you pretend it's only about a character flaw in HER< you'll get nowhere.

One other thing...your w has never brought OM to a basketball game. So it stuns me that you still have trouble being able to be in a large gymnasium to watch your son and not want his mom to also be there. I think this is literally the least you can do for HIM.

And To reiterate, It is not about her or you. It's only about HIM.



Calibri thank you for checking up on me. Yes faith can be a hard thing when you feel overwhelmed. I know exactly what I have to do with DB... confident, content, busy guy. I don't have to do it for long around W. Then I don't. If I had real faith... then I wouldn't be at all angry. I would just be naturally friendly with W.


Not sure what that means. But as long as you operate in anger or fear, you are Not operating in faith.

Hello Karma. Yes I don't want at all to be the bitter angry husband.


What will it take on your end, to avoid that? Remember, she's not the determining factor in how YOU behave or who you become. Only you are.

---

OK putting aside anger today. I'm going to see my son play basketball. That is my focus. Just act as if I'm having a good day and great life around W today. I will just observe any attempt my W makes to be friendly. I will have good PMA.

Onward.

2 TED Talks you could watch on Youtube may help with this. One is by Shawn Achor and the other is by Amy Cuddy. They both discuss the power of positive psychology and have empirical data to support it.

And they explain HOW to make yourself have a PMA...I highly recommend both and they are about 20 minutes long. Seriously HP, you'll get a lot out of them.

[Starsky309]

Being polite to her, is not a 'reward" to her. It's just mature behavior. I don't know that I can explain it better.

I think that ^^ explained it just about perfectly, 25.


Starsky

[25yearsmlc]

HP

Awhile back there was a man here named Denver2010 (or something close to that). He and his w separated and eventually they did reconcile, last I saw.

Anyhow, at one point Denver could NOT understand how his w would not return to the marriage. He had owned his significant role in the demise of the marriage and had made some big changes.

She had an OM, but Denver got past that due to his own issues. He felt that b/c he had finally made the changes she had long wanted, he could not wrap his brain around why she didn't just ditch the OM and come back.

Then another woman, a WAW, wrote to Denver.

See if you can imagine Your wife writing some or all or any of what this woman wrote to Denver...



FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….

When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than.

One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.

Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes.

So, I can see where your W is coming from. When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.

Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated - does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.

And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.

Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope.

You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.

And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to "win".

Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to "win".

Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell.
_________________________

[jim0987]

HP

I'm sure there is a lot going on in your head at the moment but i just wanted to say that the advice and analysis 25 is giving you at the moment is potentially one of the greatest gifts you will ever recieve. If you can take that stuff on board, I mean really take it on board, I genuinely think your life as a whole will benefit.

You've come a long way already but there is always more to do

Onward HP