Gogofo - no longer piecing 2nd BD - pt. 2

[gogofo]

Update:

The W and kids and I had a very nice holiday weekend. We went out of town to get away from extended families and just be our little family. This was the first trip like this we had done on a holiday, and it was great. The W and I bonded more over the weekend. She said she is happy and excited for the holidays for the first time in a number of years.

We have had talks with each other about moving in together. I asked her what was different now and she gave me a look that I would describe as her saying "are you serious?" I know what I felt was different and it was good to hear her say what she felt was different between us now than a year or even a month ago. To be honest I see a significant change in her over the past month.

I asked why she felt the need to file a month ago and she said her reflecting on our marriage with the "fondness exercise" caused her a lot of pain. She said she felt forced into the pain by me and needed to get away from it. She said that we would have continued on with working on us slowly and she would not have filed if we did not try the exercise.

When talking about this situation before in this latest attempt to repair the M I said that she needed to talk to me more about her feelings. It seemed that when she is stressed and overwhelmed she bottles things up. I told her we need to talk when she feels this way so I can understand how she feels and why and we can use it as a chance to further connect.

She said the biggest thing that changed her feelings was when she was sick and I was taking care of her. She said she realized that she can rely on my to help, take care of her, the house, etc. I said I had done this in the past, but she said it was different this time. In reflection I saw that I was not being selfish and I was helping her in any way I could. I left work early and drove across town to pick our oldest up from the bus stop so she wouldn't have to walk outside to pick him up in the cold while she was in significant pain. She said she sees now she can rely on me if needed. I see it as her seeing that she is vulnerable at times and she does need help, but now she feels she can rely on me.

We have not had all good days, this is life with two young kids after all. What I am now doing is not taking her stress personally and feeling responsible and hurt by it. I make faces at her an laugh and do things to stop the escalation of stress. Before I would cower and hide and feel responsible for her stress or bad mood, like I had done something wrong. She has also acknowledged her stress and has apologized in instances where she has been short with me. I told her thank you, etc, cheering on the good behavior.

We have been moving forward with moving in together. We have a target list date of Dec. 15th. We are coming into a stressful two weeks as she has a lot of grading, homework, projects, and family things coming up. The difference is that now we both feel less stress than we have in years, which is great.

We are still learning about how to interact better and communicate better, but this makes me excited and happy because we had stopped doing this for quite some time before BD.

I am trying to keep my emotions under control, but this feels like we may be starting piecing as we are both working on the M.

[Wonka]

Gofo,

What a wonderful update! Yes, piecing is filled with fits and starts as you forge a new R/M together.

I am thinking it would be a good time for you and W to take a look at two Gottman books together.

The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work: A Practical Guide from the Country's Foremost Relationship Expert

Ten Lessons to Transform Your Marriage: America's Love Lab Experts Share Their Strategies for Strengthening Your Relationship

Slow and steady, buddy. You guys will get to the other side much stronger and happier. Keep the convos going. I agree that laughter is the best medicine.

Way to go!

[gogofo]

Thanks Wonka,

I have read the Seven Principles and really liked the info he had presented in it. This is where I got the fondness exercises but tried then way too prematurely in my situation.

I will have to download the 10 Lessons book.

[gogofo]

Update from me, long post

After the great Thanksgiving we spent together we had a couple birthdays and Christmas. Stress was higher than normal times, but normal for holidays. I was nervous about our R through the stress, but it seemed we made it through okay.

We have been interacting well, having some fun together, surviving sick kids together; an overall good time.

What I have been missing in the R is affection and intimacy. When we were on our Thanksgiving trip we were pretty hot and heavy, she was even putting her hands on me when the kids were not looking. I felt emotionally and physically wanted, it was great.

This feeling and action from her has waned over time and she seems guarded with her feelings and or openness for affection towards me. In response to this I started to hug and kiss and try to cuddle and basically start to smother her. Not a good idea and I did not realize I was doing this until looking back.

One night after a holiday party I brought up the fact that I was missing intimacy, but I did it at a completely wrong time. We had been drinking at a party and our filters were gone so it ended in a heated conversation with each of us feeling frustrated. We talked about it later and the result was that she knows I want/need affection and intimacy but she feels guarded about it. She said there is an emotional connection that she needs to feel, it is not just all physical.

Exactly what this connection is, I do not know. I don’t understand exactly what it is, and she has confirmed this by telling me so. I don’t think she has explained it in a way that I understand what these feelings are and I also probably am having trouble understanding how she is explaining it.

On New Year’s Eve we had a good day and night until I turned into a needy baby and pouted about not being intimate. We both were nodding off on the couch and fell asleep before 12:00, we were exhausted. I had hoped to get physical that night and pouted about it and felt rejected and in turn used some hurtful language. She felt that she was again a physical object to me.

I feel we are getting into a sexless situation and don’t know how to make this emotional connection flourish and grow. When we are on vacation we have a great intimate connection and we both feel fulfilled in our R, but this feeling goes away when we are at home together.

We need to find a way to rebuild this emotional connection. She is holding back and I am pursuing and I am sure making her feel pressured.

Last night I made the decision to 180 and did not go in for good night kisses, nor did I reach in for cuddles when sleeping. I think that backing off will allow her to settle and maybe miss it. This week she is back at school again so work stresses will increase again.

What she has told me is that “I don’t know what I want/like” which is the truth. I have a hard time deciding on hobbies I enjoy or things that I like doing. I tend to follow along with other peoples likes. She said that I need to get a life outside of our R and stop worrying about her job and doctoral program; I need to do more with my friends and get out of the house more. She needs to miss me and want to see me. She also said that I need to be more assertive and get more of a back bone; I need to argue with her and stand my ground on things. She even said that she wonders how far she could push me on things to see if I would fight back. I have read Holding on to your NUTS, but think I will reread after I finish 10 Lessons to transform your marriage.

We seem to get into tension and then have intimate talks about us and the R and come away feeling better about the situation. This piecing is very hard and stressful. Sometimes I feel like she isn’t trying and it upsets me. I feel like calling her out on this, but don’t know if that would be counterproductive or not.

She said she is still afraid and scared that things will revert back, but thinks that she needs more time to feel more comfortable and emotionally connected. We both agreed that I am trying too hard and she is holding back. She has planned an overnight little date for us in February and it should be a good time.

Next week is our 10 year anniversary for our first date and I have been planning on giving her a ring to commemorate this occasion so I am pretty excited about that.

We listed our marital home for sale on January 2nd and are now figuring out what our next step is for housing. We have been looking at houses and also looking at lots to build a home on.

Life certainly is a whirl wind but I think we are two people that keep it that way with what we choose to do. We take things to or near the maximum and are big dreamers, but we both love that idea.

[gogofo]

Yesterday at work I made some decisions with my job position and decided to change how things were done in my department. I had been worried about this and made the decision to be brave and bring this up to my boss. This is something I usually don't do, bringing up things that bother me, but I did it and I felt confident.

I was very proud of myself and have been thinking about how I did not communicate with my W in the past about my feelings; I only shared mostly things I did during the day, the mundane details. So last night I told my wife that I was proud of myself and shared my feelings with her.

She was happy for me and listened to me talk about my feelings and said she appreciated it. Then she went back into the point of view that she has had that is anger. She is upset that I did not do these things before and now that I am doing them now she is even more angry. She said she does not want to really participate and it feels like it is too little too late.

She had been out with a friend and had a couple drinks with dinner so she was pretty free and vicious with her opinions last night. She said she gave me every thing and that I gave her nothing. She gave me 10 years of her life and her body and anything I ever wanted and that I gave her nothing in return. If I had only given her on little inclination of trying she would have still felt that way. She said that we are great friends, have a great time together, are good parents together, but the spark or connection between us is gone for her.

I know she feels this way, but I do not believe her completely either. She has shown that her passion for me is alive and well when we are out of town and away from all the stress and distractions around us. She said she agrees with that but then we come back to "reality" and things aren't that way.

We talked about needing to find a way or wishing that we felt that way all the time. She said she felt our "vacation" relationship all the time before, but not now.

She said she wakes up and has to ask herself if she is happy or not. I don't know if she means with the R or in general, but she has said this before when she has kicked me out or detached from me.

To me all of this feels like a pattern where life stresses and commitments are creating a wedge or rift between us and making our marriage week or unstable. We do lack the strong emotional connection we once had, but I have been trying to find ways to rebuild it.

The conversation turned into blame or accusations and expressions of hurt and it got ugly. She said I never even fight with her, which I don't. So I decided to bring up what I felt was a hypocritical stance she was taking, bad move I am sure.

She said she loved me so much and allowed me to continue loving her the way I was and tried to get used to it. She was saying that I never new how to love her and it was partially her fault for allowing me to do it that way. So I said that me not knowing how to love her was her fault to because she never told me how she wanted to be loved.

I got a prompt "f%$k you" and she went to bed. Of course I felt bad about hurting her feelings and the direction the talk went.

This morning I sat on the side of the bed and apologized for hurting her feelings. She said she should not have talked about what she did when she was drinking. I hugged her and told her that I care for her deeply and I love her and that this is the most important thing in my life. She has the feeling that our R was not the most important thing in my life before and it hurts her.

[gogofo]

I can't help but feel like there is a pattern here. When our lives, and in particular hers, get stressed we seem to drift away and she feels that there isn't much hope for us.

This has happened at the beginning of the school year, mid-term, and now the beginning of the spring semester. I don't think it is the only thing going on, but I does not seem to be coincidental.

What is confusing to me is the planning for the future of houses, schools, jobs, etc. and then her feelings that there is not a connection between us.

I feel like that when I make progress or prove changes that she resists them or gets hurt by them because they were not there before in our R. I get frustrated and think that we should assess how things are now, not what was lacking before.

She said that when she sees the changes she feels that she is on the outside looking at them and they don't affect her; my feeling is that she is walled off and rejecting them.

I don't quite understand how she can acknowledge that there are changes and they are good and positive, but then not enjoy or accept them as positive. My opinion is that if you look at our R now that we are building something great, if she would just drop her guard and participate with me we could make great strides. I know when she does and it feels great, but then she puts the wall back up.

[labug]

So what are you going to do?

Her reality is her reality. Only she can change that.

Do you want to stay on this path or are you done? Do you want to live in a LowDesire R?

(just so you know, it's pretty common for women with jobs and raising young kids to be more open to sex on vacation)

Is there abuse in her past? I read thru some of your first thread but didn't see any mention and I can't remember. You sort of fade in and fade out here.

You were both on a fast track to marriage crash. Have any of those outside pressures changed?

This comes down to who you rally want to be. I doubt that she wants you to argue with her all the time. Most likely she wants an equal partner in all aspects of life.

[gogofo]

I am going to keep on DBing. I do not want to live in a low desire R, but I do not think it will stay this way. The desire ebbs and flows along with our outside stresses.

I am going to try to keep communicating and back off on the pressure. I know I can survive this marathon and wait for things to change slowly. I am committed to reconciling this R.

I know she is more open to sex on vacation because she really wants me and comes on to me when we are on vacation.

There is not abuse in her past. If there is this is something she has never brought up before and has hid it well.

The outside pressures that have changed are only on my side, but not much. She/we still has plenty of stress. Currently here is the list of stresses we have, besides our daily jobs and our two kids:

W is getting a doctoral degree
W is applying for a new position
trying to sell house
reconciliation
company issues at my job
new puppy
W's brother has substance abuse issues affecting our nieces

So our lives are full of outside stress and commitments and for her our M is not a place of zero stress.

I have been creating a household that is as stress free as possibly. I have been taking care of the majority of the housework, laundry, dishes, etc. so she can come back from work to a place that is not in a chaotic matter. She hates disorder in our home and so do I.

It is this emotional connection and comfort to share and relax with me that is missing. She has said before that it will just take time and I am okay with that.

[Barrybran]

I understand your frustration gogofo. Keep riding that patience train and be her rock. It appears as though you're trying to push things rather than letting her go through her journey. I feel that the conversation while drinking should never have happened. By all means, hear her out, then validate her and politely let her know you'll come back to it another time.

[gogofo]

I need to work on my patience. I read the forum or relationship books and I get excited to try new things or communication styles or ideas within out M/R. I get motivated. I get a feeling that our R is progressing so I think I can bring up ideas or things to try to improve us. She has done the same. The issue is when looking back that they seem to backfire.

I need to refocus on being her rock. The problem is that I am scared that by just being a rock she may get used to the passionless or sexless marriage. Probably a far off result, but one that I am fearful about.