pain meds, depression, separation turning bad

[Zelda09]

That's also good advice - they will have their own wounds and trust issues to recover from if we can even work this out.

His friend told me that the letter wasn't effective, but if I could look him in the eye and lay my cards out - tell him I love him and I would like to work it out, that may be what he needs to hear/feel. That's a lot different than listening and validating, that's pushing my wants...right?

I mean, there's so much over-analysis to be done here. What will push him away, what has/hasn't been working, not to mention the huge concerns I have with depression (possibly bi-polar depression) the meds, the family and work issues...I don't want my M back if he isn't wiling to do his part in change also - he has told me repeatedly he's not interested, so why can I gain (realistically) by showing up, listening, validating, etc? I trust his friend and his advice, but I worry it is maybe misguided.

It is definitely a tumble dry in there.

[edz]

I think thats a good point, you would have to have a balance, listen, validate be warm but be clear in boundries that its not a more of the same situation so to speak.

[Hoju]

It sounds to me like you pushing your wants. You have already looked him in the eyes and told him you loved him and want to save your M, correct? Do you think having his good friend there will change his mind? Has something else indicated to you that he is unsure where you stand and just needs confirmation to come home?

You said one of your 180s was active listening, correct? He's told you directly to "leave him alone". Would getting on a plane to fly out to confront him face to face show that you are trying to listen to him? Will these actions in someway validate his feelings or is he just going to say again "why wont you just leave me alone"?

I'm not a vet and have seen no success in my own sitch so feel free to ignore all of this

[Calibri]

It is pushing your wants.

Your H knows what you want.

The only thing I can think of is the delivery -- how have you been delivering your message to him?

TBH, the way you come across here -- even in your messages is very much filled with frustration, a bit of indignation, and an attitude that your way is right. I'm just giving an outsiders perspective. Are you talking to your husband in the same way?

I'm not trying to knock you --- I've been where you have been, minus the pain meds. And I've realized that while I'm saying different things, my tone and the way I'm approaching it is still conveying old behaviors. I feel you have every right to feel the way you do.

I think you have to weigh the pros and cons here. How close is this friend? Has friend had conversations with your H that indicates that this would work? My concern is - your H just blasted you out of the water just a few days ago for talking to his family about the issues. Will he do the same because you're talking to a friend of his.

You have to weigh the pros and cons. If you go, you know that you've done everything you can.

The cons, if he's telling you to leave him alone......there's something to respecting his wishes. If you go out there you either get more of the same, or you have the possibility that he might come home.

The thing is, I get the impression that you want him to come home on his own accord. That it's his idea to come back. To achieve that, he has to do his own thing, hit rock bottom, think about life, whatever it is that he has to do.

How long has he been gone for this "six week break"?

[Zelda09]

He's been gone now 3.5 weeks or so. Saw me a total of six or seven times the month before he was out of the house and we had very limited contact outside of that.

He vented to his friend about me contacting his family and other friend about the Oxy concern - and his friend told me that's when he asked, do you want me to contact her, see what she says - and H said yes. So...on one hand he was pissed but on the other he asked his other friend to do this and H accepted the voluntary intermediary role he wanted to play. And reportedly read what I shared with interest if not confusion.

When his friend talked to me last night, he said he thought it was important we are face to face. Before he left, I was trying to do the DR thing, and not push - so I sat on my own fence and never really stated that I wanted this to work, we just talked about what had happened and went on dates, and I tried to show the changes I was making then - and these dates went well. He did his homework the MC gave him. It was only the day he was talking about leaving that I put it out there, don't you think we could stay and work on this. He declined, said he had to do this. The only other way I've stated intentions is email, and that's clearly been going badly. Solution journal - NC periods he gets even further away and it's evident when there is contact. Emails and texts are misunderstood. Talking and being in each others presence resulted in him coming home the weekend before he left and writing me some nice notes. So this is why I think there may be something to this face to face.

I booked the flight. Got trip insurance in case he says he won't see me when friend delivers the message that he advised this time and space and is helping with it. I worry about what you are all saying that this is showing him I'm not listening but it was friend who got his permission to step in here and suggested it all...so there's that. I didn't know initially when friend contacted me that he'd share my responses and I made it clear that I was trying to let go, would leave the door cracked but had no wish to bother him anymore. And I guess he read that.

C - you are reading me right. I am frustrated and all the rest at times and I vent here. None of my hurt has been acknowledged by H and it's hard to let it go, but I won't put it out there for him either when I go up there. I know where I failed this year and that's what I have to stick to in the visit, right? That and listening.

Conversations with friend that indicate it would work - friend said he did take some pause when he gave H the advice to try everything he could before letting go. Said H is all over the place and definitely angry and let down, that there is a huge gulf in how we see our sitch. Friend is trusted, has spent some time up there, and he wants to help. I am lucky that one of the boys who attended our wedding wants to help support our marriage at this point.

[Zelda09]

Just got a request for a call from H. He sounded warmer than he has in weeks, said he heard from friend I was coming into town. Asked if I was still seeing our MC for IC...I said yes. Asked if he was talking to anyone...he said maybe next week he would call her for a session over the phone. After a bit, he asked about our pets, for details on the roommate, asked that I would call him when I got in on Saturday night. Wish me luck, folks.

[Zelda09]

Happy news.

I went in with my best as-if.
Intending to be an unconditional friend.
To keep asking questions and find understanding.
I laughed as often as I could, genuinely.
Remembered the saying among teachers I worked with -
Most important thing for anyone to feel in our space: "I like me when I'm with you."
I was the woman I want to be for him as we work through this - calm, balanced, open, gentle. The partner he'd have to be stupid to give up on.

He was with his friend when they picked me up at airport. At friends' house, we talked for two hours. Sometimes very tense and hard, but I kept true to my intentions. I was vulnerable - part of my 180, and I validated as often as I could. We went out afterward, drank more than people our age should. Conversation flowed easy. I admitted to just wanting to touch him and he leaned in and let me kiss him. He promised he hadn't had any oxy for a week and I believe him. He has a bit left and his dad sat with us through that conversation - some of that was also hard and he did admit it was probably a factor (tho not to the degree our relationship broke down). We slept in the same bed and more. Went to breakfast next morning and he was still guarded but we were talking. He said he would consider coming home. That we would take it slow and put our marriage on the back burner as he and I did the work, that I could at least provide a supportive environment while he focused on his life. And I spent the rest of the day just being with him as he tried to help his dad, and doing what I could to be part of his life for this day. He thanked me for my help.

I came away from all of this feeling a lot more understanding in my heart, not just my head.

He dropped me off at the airport a few minutes ago. My only mistake was telling him I loved him again. Earlier today he reciprocated, tonight just a firm squeeze of my hand and "we'll talk soon."

I texted his friend to thank him again. He responded that H had also just sent a msg of thanks for support, saying it was a positive experience.

[happy1]

Hi Z

I love this

The partner he'd have to be stupid to give up on.

Good for you and, I know what you mean by saying ILU. Are you often the one or always the one to say ILU first and a lot? I ask, b/c I do that and have found that not saying it as a 180 makes me feel more frustrated, so I say it but a lot less often right now while I am still LBS

on another thread you said this

if I ask the right questions, and validate creatively and offer examples that show what he is saying - he WILL elaborate, open up, and make quite a lot of sense.

Can you elaborate on what does work? I have a H who is similar in that I think he is a bad communicator, passive aggressive, I have to mind read him and generally I have no idea what he is saying when he does say something.

I am an ENTJ
There is not much room for error in the world of the ENTJ. They dislike to see mistakes repeated, and have no patience with inefficiency. They may become quite harsh when their patience is tried in these respects, because they are not naturally tuned in to people's feelings, and more than likely don't believe that they should tailor their judgments in consideration for people's feelings. ENTJs, like many types, have difficulty seeing things from outside their own perspective. Unlike other types, ENTJs naturally have little patience with people who do not see things the same way as the ENTJ. The ENTJ needs to consciously work on recognizing the value of other people's opinions, as well as the value of being sensitive towards people's feelings. In the absence of this awareness, the ENTJ will be a forceful, intimidating and overbearing individual. This may be a real problem for the ENTJ, who may be deprived of important information and collaboration from others. In their personal world, it can make some ENTJs overbearing as spouses or parents.

[Zelda09]

That ENTJ description is spot on. Yeah, I was a little too self-assured and overbearing about stuff he wanted to explore. This, in all of our conversations, but like 10x as frustrated: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg

The ILU isn't a 180 for me. I said it a lot. That's because I meant it. All through our talks about maybe getting married he would say he just didn't think I was happy with him - and I didn't understand bc, well, I LOVED HIM. Just not unconditionally, and that is something I am still struggling with - can I truly accept him as he is, even if I can save our M?

See, I also sent a lot of signals that he wasn't good enough, not as smart as me, not capable of figuring out his stuff but I had a plan...I flat out told him sometimes I couldn't respect the way he was thinking, doing xyz...

I think if ILU is said as a declaration like you'd say to Mom, fact, and not a plea, it goes over a bit better, but it's true - just reminds them they're not into the love feelings right now and probably feels like too much. Let your actions communicate appreciation for him if the opportunity arises. A smile and warm eye contact.

Ok, about what works, I'm very new at this, so I'm going to borrow this from another thread I commented on today - when we were sitting at the bar on Sat this weeekend:

"I ask because there were shitty things said on both sides of our fights and I think it got to be where we could hardly say anything mild to each other without hearing some echos of the insults and previous contempt. This hit me while we were at the bar on Sat night and he told me that he couldn't even ask my help for the simplest thing, xyz as an example, without fearing my reaction...I looked at him and at first wanted to imagine this was his insecurity and his issue, but it came from somewhere and I thought of the day I went ballistic single-handedly moving our big furniture into the house from garage because it wasn't getting done fast enough at his pace...and I was pissed thinking he was making excuses 'waiting on my help'. (Ridiculous considering it took two men to load some of those book cases and dressers ...what was I thinking?) He sat in the back yard for hours while I threw my back out. When he finally came in, he quietly offered to make lunch and I sat there on the floor bawling my eyes out feeling embarrassed and sad and still frustrated. No, H, was not crazy for feeling like he didn't want to ask my help. This wasn't his 'stuff' he just randomly accumulated."

So, when he said that to me about how he couldn't ask for help (me, despite being drunk, pulled a super human feat remembering the point of my existence at that bar with him in that moment, and instead of the reaction I wanted to have about him just making excuses over XYZ, this is where I creatively elaborated):

"H, I am so sorry. I had no idea things were this bad. It must have felt awful if you didn't even think you ask me for help with moving a motor into a bucket so you could work on it. But I think I can understand where this came from, maybe? (then recounted the raging furniture episode.)"

His response, his eyes kind of lit up and he said, "Yes, exactly, but it wasn't just one thing, you were always angry and disappointed in me like that, I wasn't lying when I said you would come home and I could feel waves of it."

(old me would have reacted against the 'You' statement and insisted these were counter-productive statements to make in expressing himself. That he should stick to 'I statements'. So instead of being predictably obnoxious, controlling and righteous, I continued the story as much as I could from his perspective and checked to see if it was right.)

"And I tried to blame it on work, but I think you were right, I was upset about all of the expectations I had for you, and the ways you weren't responding to the pushing, and the panic I had...you felt that, right?"

"I tried to tell you but you didn't want to hear it."
"I know. I'm sorry it took this much for me to want to look at myself. It was just easier to imagine everything was your fault."

And so closeness grew that night. Even though he rarely made a move to acknowledge the crappy things he did, and not so M-friendly choices he made...I was ok with it because we were talking about feelings and agreeing on stuff. And it felt really good to be experiencing that connection where we were painting pictures for each other and talking about what happened. I mean, maybe if you imagine you're both talking about someone else, and kind of distance yourself from that person you're talking about. We're all totally supportive when our friends and partners want to bitch about somebody else, right?

They say don't believe what your S says, watch the actions...well, none of our conversation this past weekend was remotely reassuring that he loved me and wanted to work for our M...yet...he chose to see me, accompanied back and forth to the airport. He agreed to several outings the next day to discuss things. And at the bar that night he leaned in and let me kiss him, we were affectionate, intimate that night by his choice, and we connected in these conversations...even if he was telling me how not good I was for him and how little faith he had that I could make changes.

When you say you have no idea what he means when he does say something - YES. I felt frustrated with mine because he sounded borderline insane sometimes, or slow. God, that sounds terrible, but it's true. So, the advice I would have is go into the conversation imagining he is right and he has lots of sense to make and it's your job to uncover it. Gently, and if he's anything like mine, he'll curl up into a defensive punchy ball if he feels like the questions are coming from a place of 'I want to judge you, you better say something that makes sense to me' instead of 'I accept your feelings and want to understand what you meant just there.' Or as our MC told us - if I feel confused I can simply ask him if he can state it a different way. I tried that exact phrase a couple of times this weekend and it worked well.

Hope this helps. I'm very new at this being the softer side of me thing.

[Zelda09]

To contact or not to contact in coming weeks? I am talking myself in circles.

Had a realization today that despite this good contact we just had all weekend, part of my 180 needs to be not trying to steer him or convince him in any way. This is part of what he is trying to get away from (and me at my most predictable.) My 180 needs to be to let go and let him make his own choices without trying to be influencing. We had plenty of good contact in days before he left town, and he still left town to go focus on himself.

Here's the other side I'm getting itchy over -

I've been emotionally the distancer in our R. But pursuing since he gave up and started S. So the 180S are complicated in that way.

I've been wanting to reach out to him to even text something simple like, Thinking of you, hope xyz is going well' to keep some connection and show interest in his life - which is a thing I am working on. But I think he will just see it as me trying to push him or intrude on his space.

"His sign off at the airport was, we'll talk soon." I can't believe 3 days feels like so long. I initiated the trip. He should initiate the next contact if there is to be any, or is that more of the same from me emotionally, or a 180 from my style in the last several weeks?

On top of just not being sure what to do, I fear the NC days we've had just have proven to leave him colder in the last several weeks. This is the fear that leaves me wanting to contact him despite the space I know he wants. I keep trying to tell myself that my fear is making me still try to control the sitch and his feelings, that I really shouldn't be focused or caring on whether he wants to keep up the closeness we experienced. Ball is in his court.

Help.

Wait two weeks for when he comes back into town, let him initiate any contact? Along lines of LRT.

OR

Continue the 180 from being emotional distancer in R, maybe by phone, since text and email goes poorly?

What is the real change I need to focus on?