Maybell XXVI

[Underdog]

Maybell,

I really like the support you're getting from the others today. You're all good eggs here.

And do I really have to go to dinner with him and listen to the awful things he'll say to me AGAIN?

Just a gentle reminder that you *always* have choices, Maybell. They may be the best of yuck, but they are still there. Look, I'm not the mom who tells the girls that they HAVE to eat brussel sprouts. Try one. If you don't like it, I won't force you to eat things that bring you pain. Same goes here. Your interactions with your H have brought you pain. So do you need me to be mommy and tell you that you don't have to go? Ok... you definitely don't!

Part of me feels guilty at promoting my needs and desires above the commitment I made when we got married.

Ok, Maybell, it's time for a mini smack down. Your commitment contract was broken long ago. You've done what you need to do to keep the door open to reconciliation. Yes, there are posters here who have been successful on this path (shout out to you Bug and 25). For whatever reasons, their spouses didn't completely go off the grid and check out permanently. For the rest of us here, well, we never got the chance to make it up to the plate to take a swing. It's not your fault that your H won't give you the chance to have the M you both so desperately want (but are very disparate at this juncture).

If you were controlling (and there are a whole lot of us here in this amusement park), I'd say it was your fear and anxiety, and inability to manage them effectively, that drove that boat. Ok, I get this. But your H has a real problem with the porn, because he substitutes real life intimacy for an imaginary sexual experience that will be a bottomless pit of empty release and no connection. We're not here to compare tit for tat. You are genuinely working on your stuff. Keep going. If he's unwilling and doesn't want to see anything wrong with his choices, again, who broke the marriage contract?

Your efforts do and always *did* matter, Maybell. Maybe not to him, but they did to you. And the most important person you should please - every damn day - is yourself. You can look yourself in the mirror and say, "I forgive you for your faults, you're working on them, and you are a good person. You try to do the right thing." For me personally, it allowed me to sleep at night.

Is it wrong for me to give up on my marriage under these circumstances? Don't I deserve to free myself for someone who actually WANTS to know me and care about me, rather than someone who doesn't care and doesn't want to be around me? Somebody who has the integrity to stand by me and actually speak up for the relationship when things aren't going well?

No, it is not wrong. Again, you always have choices. The choice isn't that we all get a do-over here. Otherwise, we'd not have a need to post here. But staying married to a person who doesn't want to be married to us sounds like a life in absolute hell. It's like throwing good money after bad.

Nobody could ever accuse you of not being willing to look at your contribution to the demise of your marriage, Maybell. Continue to work on the things that you know prevent you from having close relationships with others, and more importantly, yourself. You can't go wrong there.

Like you, I spent some time doing a post mortem of my own marriage. The last few years of our living together was really and truly unhappy. I prayed every night for something to change. Well, I wasn't really specific about that. But I also prayed that God would bring me a man who wanted to love me. I had definitely inserted the face of my own husband when fantasizing about it. Then he left and I thought, WTF? But over some time, I realized that just maybe God knew my H probably was never going to want to want what I wanted with him. I'm really not trying to be Debbie Downer here, but I'm now free to have the kind of R I really want with a man. I haven't found him yet, but I'm holding out for him when we're both ready. I choose to believe that the foundation is being laid for that eventual event. The timing will happen when it's supposed to happen. And it's not going to be an emotional cripple who wants this job!

At the risk of sounding like a cheerleader gone off the grid, I wouldn't want your H back as he is either. He'd have to do some major auditioning to even win back the right for consideration at this point. Look at it this way: if he were to come into your life RIGHT NOW, would you want to date him as is?

And one last thing. That pole dancer fulfills a fantasy life for him. She's there as a prop, and it has everything to do with his very skewed relationship with porn and intimacy. BTW, I'm not anti porn. I'm just against it when it's the primary R at the detriment of reality. Your H appears to be one of these men who won't figure out why. So let go and let God?

Hugs, Maybell. Let go of that guilt. It's not worth the weight you carry it around. Don't make your back break carrying baggage that truly isn't yours.

Betsey

[Maybell]

Thank you, Betsey. I know it's stupid to want a kind of permission to give up on him. But I've learned so much the value of perspective and I guess I felt like I needed confirmation that I really had done everything I could.

There are a lot of things I could have done better, even recently. Under the circumstances, I did what I could with the tools and materials available. I would never choose to go through this and if I ever get hit with this Mack truck ever again I will do it very differently... But I really hope I never do again. But that said, my growth has been powerful and I appreciate being stronger now than at any other time in my life.

I don't know what I'm going to do about this dinner. I absolutely don't want to share a meal with him. On the other hand I see the value of ironing some things out in person so if I can think of an alternative to dinner I'll suggest that instead.

My aversion to him seems slightly unprovoked considering nothing new has happened in the last couple of weeks. Maybe I've just stopped trying to cover it up with hope for reconciliation.

[KGirl]

Could you meet for coffee (won't take as long, easier to live when needed)? Or maybe there's a public part of a library somewhere where you can sit at a table and talk? I usually meet in a parking lot for paperwork/other exchanges but I think that will be a little sketchy for an actual conversation.... ; )

[labug]

I started a long post to you but put it aside. Then I happened on your posts to SS. You sound so strong and in control of you.

Be that person, own that person.

If you need to D do it for you, not because of H. Say very clearly, this is what I want.

Don't do the dinner if it's not the right thing for you. Find you. Be you, not what the societal conventions say you should be or do. Take a step in owning your life, your destiny.

Let go of wanting answers to what your H did in your marriage for now. Can you go with you both did the best you could with the tools you had at the time? What have you got to lose?

That's probably as close to the truth as any of us can get. He didn't do what he did because of you but because of his stuff, just as you did what you did because of your stuff.

What would a satisfactory answer sound like? Is there a satisfactory answer? If you don't get the right answer will you carry that with you the rest of your life?

There doesn't have to be a villain. True fact.

If you want out, let him know you want out. It wasn't working and now it's time to let it go. There doesn't have to be fault assigned to either of you. It just is.

You're going to have a long R with this guy, the father of your children. Go forward with that in mind. That's a positive self-fulfilling prophecy/intention. Look at Betsey's R with her x. I have a friend whose 1st H had an affair when their son was about 10. XH is still searching but they're great friends because they moved forward with what was best for their son who is now 25. It can happen.

Start each day as a new day, leaving the past further behind. Trying to fix the past will keep you stuck. Staying angry allows the other person to control us.

Forgiveness frees us, when we forgive ourselves, when we forgive others. Don't close your heart down, open it.

Slow down enough that your decisions aren't emotion driven.

Everything will be OK in the end and if it's not OK, it's not the end.

I was raised to be a people-pleaser. I said yes to almost anything to keep the peace and be likable. A "Good Girl." I did lots of things I didn't want to do and then wondered why I was so unhappy, depressed and filled with resentment.

I did it to myself. The good thing about that truth is I could also undo it.

So I did.

Being in control of me is a wonderful thing. I wish the same for you. The best is yet to come.

[Tarheel]

^^^Pure gold right there.

[Maybell]

Thank you. Your posts to me always give me lots to chew on and this one does too. I'm going to think about most of it and answer little here.

I do want to say, I no longer expect the truth to be at all favorable to the marriage. That seems to be done and I'm ok with it, because I'm happy as I am, with prospects for being even happier once I'm less directly dependent on him.

But in recognition of the fact that we will be co parenting forever, I would like the courtesy and respect that honesty indicates.

Perhaps we will be like Betsey and Mr. Wonderful in time, but for now, I do not want a personal relationship with him. I will co parent politely. No more. He has been dishonest and manipulative. I told him in May that I didn't want to be friendly with him while he was "friends" with OW, and in July he made a point of telling me he "wasn't seeing her anymore" during that period when he wanted to have lunch every week. Knowing he was just trying to get away with more dishonesty makes me feel disrespected and I won't deal with someone who thinks its ok to treat me that way.

It may be that it's on me to say, I don't care what the truth is; It won't change my course of action. I care that you quit lying.

I'm not sufficiently at peace to agree that we both did the best we could because cheating (perhaps over several years) seems so far below the best that a reasonable person could do. But I see the point of laying the blame aside and finding peace where I am.

I do believe what I wrote to Ss. And also I want validation that it's ok to be done. Because I would have been a WAW six years ago if I'd had the courage. And now I do have the courage -- but I want to be thoughtful and have integrity and not embrace the blow my kids are going to suffer because I'm selfish, but because I am making a good choice that really will improve all our lives as I feel it will.

[labug]

Because I would have been a WAW six years ago if I'd had the courage.

Interesting you should bring this up because I addressed it in the post I discarded.
"Many women, including me, end up here with a "WTF, I was unhappy for all those years and put up with you and now you have the audacity to leave?" mindset.

There's anger toward ourselves for putting up with stuff for so long. And anger toward the H for beating us to the punch.

But we can't go back and change that. We can't make our S pay for it. We made a choice to stay. We got something out of the deal with the devil."

That's where some of your work will be, forgiving yourself.

I would caution to go with what you know to be true. Once we create a story in our mind, we begin interacting with the person based on that, true or not. Let it be enough that he was dishonest and went outside the marriage and that was the end for you.

Allow him to take his unhappiness with him.

[labug]

I'm not sufficiently at peace to agree that we both did the best we could because cheating (perhaps over several years) seems so far below the best that a reasonable person could do. But I see the point of laying the blame aside and finding peace where I am.

Your H isn't without his suitcase full of stuff-his nuclear family, his drinking, his affair, his need to save the young woman, his drive to work to the exclusion of family-he's running from a lot of stuff. So yes, I think he's doing the best he can with the tools he has. His box is pretty empty.

You get to decide whether it's enough or not.

[Underdog]

Morning, folks!

Interesting you should bring this up because I addressed it in the post I discarded.

"Many women, including me, end up here with a "WTF, I was unhappy for all those years and put up with you and now you have the audacity to leave?" mindset.

Maybell, I was also the one who wanted to leave several years before the bomb. I was desperately unhappy, and although I was really lacking in the self introspection department then, my XH was refusing to acknowledge there *was* a problem and told me flat out that I should probably go talk to someone to figure out what was wrong. I was doing that when he dropped the bomb. And what was unleashed after that point in time truly stunned me. It really pissed me off, because I had been asking for something to work with for a really long time. I came really close to leaving at one point that he begged me to go into MC to stop me. Guess who did the assignments and guess who didn't?

My sister asked me after he moved out, "Bets, are you just pissed that he pulled the trigger instead of you?" Maybell, I couldn't answer that question honestly for a really long time. The answer was, looking back, YES.

What Bug said about the baggage he carries and having an empty tool box and doing the best job he can with the tools he has, I do believe he is doing the best job he can. I realize it's a lousy bar to use, because the truth is he is unwilling to go within to figure out what the underlying issues are that encourage him to make poor choices. There are undoubtedly years of childhood programming that come into play. Nuclear family of origin issues that direct him to coping mechanisms that used to work but are now harmful.

YOU get this, Maybell. You've taken a look at some of your own FOO issues that drive some of your behaviors and thought patterns. I hope you know that they will probably all be works in progress. I have them too - I just try to manage them when they affect my NOW and figure out why. It keeps me honest.

I'll reiterate that you don't have to meet him anywhere. Ask him to put his thoughts into e-mail and send them. Hopefully, he'll realize that there is a delete button and he can edit so you don't have to hear the emotional version. Don't feel guilty about wanting to avoid physical time with him. You *do* get to call some of the shots now too. Repeat after me: I have choices. I make good decisions.

It took awhile for me and Mr. Wonderful to get to where we are now. We still have issues that crop up from time to time, and I do my level best to address them when they do. I don't like leaving old patterns on the table, as they are a teaching opportunity for both of us and our D20. She's actively looking at us (me in particular) as her baseline for her R with her BF. I'm trying to be a good role model there. Next month will be their 2 year dating anniversary, so she knows this is hard work. Things aren't perfect with them, and she's probably a hard person for her BF to work with. Why? She makes good decisions almost all of the time. She's an old soul in every sense of the word. So she considers consequences before she does anything, and that M.O. pays off. So she has little patience for those who don't do the same. She's MY work in progress, because I was a total dumbass when I was her age. She seems totally shocked when I tell her stuff. What can I say? I didn't get to 52 with some wisdom without help!

I just take one day at a time, and work with what is in front of me. Actually, I pretty much have this approach with my entire life in general. It's a learned behavior that keeps me sane. You'd also be surprised at how it eases those fear based issues that pop up. There is a lot to be said for living in the moment.

Anyway, try working with what is on your plate today and letting tomorrow take care of itself. I'll guess it's a whole lot more joyful.

Hugs, Maybell. You're getting there.

Betsey

[Ss06]

Wow, so much wisdom in this thread, maybell, I wonder if you know that a majority of that wisdom is coming from YOU.

No one can tell you that you did all you could. Only you. We can validate your decision until the cows come home but until YOU validate your own choice, it won't be true, and since you really want and need the truth (who doesn't?), it seems only right that you give it to yourself. What a gift!