Card29 IX - New Year, New Card

[Card29]

I can confidently say this: I am no longer pursuing WAW. That switch that flipped in my heart on Christmas Day has still in the OFF position. ILYBNILWY. I know I could fall back in love if we tried to R, but I am fully detached and confident in my future, with her or not.

This morning was about a beautiful woman walking around in front of me wearing only a towel.

[Sotto]

Glad to hear you're finding the Headspace stuff useful. I haven't tried that app, but I do like the stuff by Jon Kabat-Zinn. He has books with apps to go with them. The app I have has a range of 10, 20 and 30 minute meditations, and I try and do one most days. I've just started reading Wherever You Go, there you are.

Good for you with your interactions with your W today....tho I'm not sure if you are fully detached if you deleted 10 texts before sending one....would you do that with your neighbour?? ;-)

[Mozza]

Your sitch consistently delivers in the last two weeks. Fascinating. I'm trying real hard not to mind read, but I find it very flirty that she walks around wearing a towel then pretend she didn't think of it. "Feel comfortable" in the middle of D? Come on. I find her subtle as a 10-wheeler. We'll see where that goes. In the meantime, your focus is at the right place.

[Card29]

Good for you with your interactions with your W today....tho I'm not sure if you are fully detached if you deleted 10 texts before sending one....would you do that with your neighbour?? ;-)

Is my neighbor a beautiful woman? And did she walk around in front of me loosely wearing a towel? Then yes, probably

My brain was deleting them. Neither my heart nor my brain were writing them, if you know what I mean.

[Card29]

Your sitch consistently delivers in the last two weeks. Fascinating. I'm trying real hard not to mind read, but I find it very flirty that she walks around wearing a towel then pretend she didn't think of it. "Feel comfortable" in the middle of D? Come on. I find her subtle as a 10-wheeler. We'll see where that goes. In the meantime, your focus is at the right place.

Even though I honestly feel detached, I have been tempted to mind read a couple of times. I sometimes get the feeling she is coming back to reality and might want to R. But I'm not sweating it. If I'm sweating anything, it's MY decision if she approached me with that right now. I am very forgiving, and I will fully forgive her for the A someday (I'm 90% there already). But still, in my belief, our vows are broken, an A is a HUGE barrier to cross to get back into the M, and I've seen that there are other fish in the sea.

Not really focusing on any of that right now. Today is my first day with D2 in about 4 days, so I'm going to go pick her up from daycare and have fun with her.

[25yearsmlc]

I really don't understand everyone throwing the porn stuff back in my face. I've owned it. I cannot have owned it any more than I have. I guess whenever I become the absolute perfect, flawless husband, that's when I will deserve to not have to share my wife?

Get the chunk of concrete off your shoulder. No one said you do not deserve a faithful wife. You are reacting too defensively, imo.

This is not tit for tat. I would not be this upset had she admitted to masterbating to porn. I would not like that, but it's not the same thing.


Well, so what? Who cares how YOU would feel about it, since what matters in this instance, is how SHE felt. You are inserting YOUR point of view onto her. Not cool.


For arguments sake, let's say forget the sex she had with him. She wasn't a virgin when I met her, what's the difference? I got over that, I could get over this. She intended to replace me with HIM as the dad for half of D2's childhood. She introduced him to D2, and she told me that she intended it to be a lifelong R/M with him. Half of D2's childhood is GONE from my life.

D2 will NOT recall him later on, Ever. Besides, you'd have been working or absent for pieces of that^^ anyhow. Really though, You need to stop keeping score b/c scorecards always damage marriages. Ditch the scorecard asap or you won't get anywhere...

And to put into perspective how much that means to me, 3 years ago, when I was looking for a new job, I took a $25K paycut to work 15 less hours per week JUST so I could spend more time with my child who was 3 months away from being born.

I'm sorry but I don't actually get this^^. What does this mean? Are you suggesting it proves...what? That you value time with your newborn & only child - more than money? Well, thank God.

Did your w stay at home then? So, gee, do you see how lucky you are that she gave up ALL her income potential to do that? Or do you think SHE is lucky to have had that time? And why wouldn't that standard also apply to you?

You know, that you are lucky (not so much "noble") to have been able to spend time with your d...

Be fair and objective. It'll help you a lot.




I know I'm emotional right now. I need to wait until I'm calm and strong to make a decision.

Correct^^. So do NOT make a decision anytime soon. Give yourself at least 30 days, preferably 90. I think that's the least amount of time to monitor for results and certainly to gain a bit of clarity in oneself.

New behaviors take that much time to become part of us as well.

I just don't know if I could ever trust her again, and I don't believe she is capable of doing the work, even if she is willing. That is just how I feel tonight.

You may be right and you may be wrong. She's never HAD to do the work before. But there must have been some pay off b/c you never felt the need to expect it before either.

How's your own personal work going? I sense so much impatience in you and the "need for a woman" that it makes me think you are not comfortable enough, alone.

Most 2nd marriages end in divorce. I mean, MORE than first marriages.

I think that's because when the first marriage ends, SOME people don't do their own personal work. They just replace their spouses with someone new.

They learn very little about conflict resolution, grief, forgiveness, redemption, commitment when it's really hard, and so when things get rough in their 2nd marriages, and

rough times are in every marriage, it ends...again.

Learn the lessons you need to learn, the first time around. God forbid you go thru this again.

And I say all this^^ so you know that your sister's friend is OFF LIMITS TO YOU,

for at least this year. The fantasy may help you heal but the actuality is doomed b/c neither of you is ready.

To me, the belief that you both want a relationship, now, shows that you both are too raw for one.

Be alone with yourself. Dig deep. Figure out why the porn thing was so appealing to you (I know you say you have 'owned" it and all. I don't want to belabor the point. But I'm not sure you really truly get it.)

My observation has been that when only 1 spouse "enjoys" porn, it's bad for the marriage. Period.

When a spouse hides the fact that they use porn, it's bad for the marriage. Period.

And telling us that "it's the most watched" thing on the internet really misses the point.

Divorce rates are high enough already. Rather than seeing porn as what 'Everyone is doing", see it as the threat to marriage and true intimacy, that it is.

There's a TED Talk about giving up porn, by a very attractive man who spoke on it. I highly recommend you watch it.

He mentions how there is no "seduction" in porn. No romance. No foreplay. Just penetration. And often, a lot of what seems painful to the woman, though they seem to pretend that it isn't.

We've tried to see it more positively, but both h and I feel as if we are often watching rape.
(H usually turns it off first.)

We greatly prefer movies with passionate sexual r's in them, where the people care about each other, and then go for it.

As I said, if only one person is doing it, it's not really a marital thing.

So, Keep healing and doing your 180s and personal work...which, btw, consists of....what?

[25yearsmlc]

I agree. I was just angry and thought about her. To be honest, I visted "another" Internet forum where I hadn't posted in a while. I forgot why I stopped posting there.

Maybe because unlike Divorce Busting, where forgiveness is preached & practiced and vindictiveness is not, MANY other "marriage" sites are punitive, anger filled places.
I don't know what their "Success" rate is, but I bet ours is higher. And even when marriage don't reconcile here, there are other forms of "success" - as I suspect you now know.

If the time comes and your w and you seem to be having a rapprochement, AND OR if you want to learn more about co-parenting a D thru divorce,

THEN please investigate Retrovaille. It's a retreat for marriages in crisis. Not a "marriage encounter" but a retreat. Most of those who attend are contemplating divorce or already engaged in the process.

It's pretty deep and there, they have 82% of marriages still intact 3 years after attending.

Considering how bad the marriages are when they attend, that is saying a lot. I highly recommend it. But now is not the time for YOU to suggest that.

Card, Pick ONE approach to your marital crisis. Choose this site OR another, not "and" another.

Don't mix up strategies b/c then you do neither approach justice. And imo, those who wish to "expose" affairs are always at least partly being punitive.

At first, they'll SAY they are working on themselves and really "digging deep" and finding out they played a role in the marital demise...and many times they really.

But when they discover an affair,

good bye self reflection/growth, and HELLO SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS! Suddenly none of it was their fault. It's ALL about the affair and OP.

They make threats to tell others, AND All under the guise of "teaching a lesson" to our spouse or "showing them the consequences of their bad behavior", which is NOT a spouses job.

My DB coach got me to realize that LIFE teaches lessons and shows consequences. It's Not our job and the desire to do so, rarely, if ever, comes from a place of love in us.

Telling the H or W of an OP is wrong. It's not your duty or job. I'm not saying "go help hide it" but for God's sake, don't appoint yourself the messenger.

Way too punitive and ignorant b/c you do not know what their m is like.

Maybe/often, the LBS in that other m knows of/suspects the A and is working mightily to forgive - but you throw it in her face, and now she can't...so how on earth does that help ANYONE, including you?

And it usually pushes the WAS's into each other's arms more...


I shared the news and they got me all riled up about OM's W. I initially said that my heart went out to her, but I was in no place to try to go that route, especially since I know nothing about OM. I don't want to learn anything about him. But I kept arguing with them and I eventually got mad enough to text WAW about it. That convo went downhill. Simultaneous to that, the other people were pretty much insulting my manhood and fatherhood for not planting bugs in WAW's car to find out who OM is. I'm never going back there

They're not success stories. They are self righteous people in a lot of pain. And let's face it - For many of us, anger is easier to fully experience, than hurt feelings or a broken heart. I don't know why that is, but I sense it a lot. Especially in men, but it goes both ways.

It's unhealthy. Period.

Here's a true story. Where I grew up, we had married neighbors with 5 kids. The dad was a retired COL in the Army. He'd been a POW for years in Vietnam.

He'd also had an affair some years before...how on earth did I, a teenager, KNOW that? Oh, b/c his wife made sure to 'leak' out that he wasn't really a hero or anything, but that SHE had "forgiven" him his SIN...

every time I'd ask about POW things, she'd change the subject. I really believed for a long time that she wanted to protect him from a bad memory.

But when he was "alone" with me once, he began sharing and I realized, "OMG, she's NOT protecting him, she doesn't want him to look noble or heroic or admirable in any way..."

She was punishing him. She never let him forget the A. She'd throw it in his face every time they had a conflict. She'd hold it over his head like the Sword of Damacles. AND she'd make snide undermining remarks, often.

She made the worst possible choice, which was to stay married AND stay miserable.

I'd bet She never once asked herself if she had played any role in their problems. Maybe she did not play a role before, but she sure hurt him AND HERSELF and HER CHILDREN by not forgiving AND OR not divorcing and moving on.

Like she wanted to stay married SO SHE could keep punishing him.

30+ years later, 4 of her 5 kids are divorced OR never married. The 1 who is married is the only son. It's his 3rd marriage.

She left them a legacy of distrust, judgement, zero forgiveness & an embracing of anger;

INSTEAD of showing

compassion, commitment, brave inward searching, accountability (what was HER role in any of it?) Forgiveness AND REDEMPTION and LOVE...

which means "not keeping a record of wrongs"...(Corinthians)...

She left a legacy of broken marriages and passed that on, instead. How sad. How wrong.

Ironically, when we knew them, we loved HIM, not her. And I think the kids were mostly the same way. Torn b/c they knew he had once wronged her, but seeing them every day showed him as a humbled but good man who had made a mistake, and in her, we saw a bitter anger woman who was NOT attractive as a partner, in any way. That was a lesson in how NOT to behave.

When the COL died a few years back, his children were devastated. I think that puzzled their mom. Of course...(Good God, is she still keeping score?)


Oh, and I did download the headspace app. I tried to start it while walking my dogs...not knowing until a couple of minutes in that that would be impossible. I'll sit down in a quiet place soon.

Great idea.

[Card29]

Thanks for all of your thoughts, 25. I can say that I have come a long, long way in the few days since my meltdown. Of course it will take weeks/months of sustaining or building on this mentality for it to truly be legit, but for now I am in a really good place.

Self-righteousness has not been on my mind in several days, and I have no interest in hold onto it. Same goes with anger, jealousy, judgment, etc. I believe very deeply in forgiveness, and it's being put to the ultimate test. I have already come a long way in forgiving her. I know I will completely someday. Doesn't mean I'm sure I want to R the M with her. I honestly don't know what I want, but I also know I don't have to know right now, that it will come to me eventually.

My "not tit for tat" comment about porn was in response to Calibri, who seemed to imply that my porn use was equal to her A:

She stood beside you in a M with porn, despite feeling devalued and used. She had an affair, and now that the shoe is on the other foot, you could never lay with her again?

It didn't help that I was in one of the worst moods of my life, so my response may have been pretty snarky.


I mentioned my pay cut not to pay myself on the back for being a caring parent. I was emphasizing how immense of a priority a few extra hours a week with D2 is to me. And that accentuates how deeply losing half of her childhood cut me. It took me a solid 4-5 months to process just that one fact, to see that I can survive even with custody of D2 only every-other-week. And when I found out about the A, I learned that she very much intended to marry OM and make him D2's stepdad. It just cut really, really deep, and at the time I wrote that even deeper than the sex and intimacy with OM.

Actually, WAW was a barebones mom before BD. She did have a maternity leave, but she has always put her priority on her school and career. She is skyrocketing in her company. She is pretty much next in line to be president of a $150 million company, only 30 years old. She's getting her executive MBA, which was possible, in part, because I was home with D2 every single night, whether she was at school (meeting OM) or at home doing HW. We were actually talking about me being a SAHD for the next few years, something I was really excited about. We did not have the parenting/working relationship of your typical H/W.

I don't have a "need" for a woman. I am being very comfortable single. Sister's friend might be a possibility in the future, but now I just see that I was having rebound feelings. I had not even contemplated a new woman over the previous 6-7 months.

I have discussed porn into the ground by now. I now know that it is terrible for M. I never pretended it was good for M, but before I didn't know how destructive it was. I know now. I haven't looked at it in 5 months now, so my focus will continue to be how to turn the "streak" into a permanent way of life.

I don't have my phone on me today, on which I have my 180 list, but it includes:

- Eliminating impulsive behavior
- Listen intently, start with empathy for the other position
- Eliminate angry outbursts
- No More Mr. Nice Guy

regarding the "other" site, I still do love the books they promote for building marriages. When I read HNHN, my life changed...I immediately saw so much of what was wrong in my M that I never knew about, and I knew we could fix all of it. So if I ever get to the reconciliation stage, or start a new serious R, HNHN and other will be one of the blocks of the foundation. But as far as marital crisis, and especially A/S/D, it is a disaster, at least for me. I tried the snooping route for several weeks over the summer and I almost ended up in the hospital out of sleeplessness, vomiting and lack of appetite due to me deep, fearful attachment. After she admitted the A, I was happy that I was not going to know anything about OM, for my own sanity. All of the push to get me to investigate and snoop again brought back so many of those old feelings. Maybe that system can work for some people, but not me.

My MIL is very similar to your former neighbor, although they got a D. FIL had an A about 20 years ago (still married to OW, actually), and MIL has held onto the anger like it is a birthright. I have a cousin that is the same way. It is their favorite conversation to bring up, how unfairly they were treated. I have known from the very beginning of this mess that I did NOT want to be them. They are somewhat miserable people now. They will try to convince you that it was because of the betrayal, but it is obviously from a couple of decades of anger in their heart, burning themselves from the inside out. Already, most of my day is anger free, even when thinking about WAW.

And yes, Headspace has been a blessing. "Soft focus", allowing sounds to come to me, scanning my body for feelings...none of that comes very natural to me. But a few days in I can feel it coming easier. I will definitely stick with it.

Thanks again for stopping by, I always love your input!

[Card29]

I'd like to share a technical tip for this website, in case anyone else has the same problem I did. Sometimes I like to check DB.com at work, but my desk is easily visible by dozens of people, at any given time. I was very uncomfortable with a website that says "DIVORCE BUSTING", "SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE", etc. in massive letters. You could read it from 100 feet away if you have good eyes. I don't know about you, but I don't want all 200 people I work with knowing that I'm going through a marital crisis.

I found a workaround. Most of those phrases (especially the 'DIVORCE BUSTING" at the top of the page) are images. If you use Mozilla Firefox, you can block images from specific websites. This eliminates all of those phrases from a computer screen that is not always private. Here is how:

- In Firefox, go to divorcebusting.com
- Right click somewhere in an empty area of the page
- Click "View Page Info"
- Click "Media" tab
- Click check box next to "Block images from www.divorcebusting.com"
- Close window
- Refresh screen to ensure it worked

One negative consequence, though, is that it hides all of the buttons next to the text edit window, if you are in Full Screen Reply (hyperlinks, emoticons, bold, italics, etc.).

[Mozza]

Thanks! Done. I had the same problem, with a couple of people behind me with a view of my screen. This being said, after more than two months on this website, I think they know...