Jim0987 #8 - A bit clearer on the rebuild

[Ile Guy]

*Filing serves me little purpose at this stage except for 'statement' value

JIm.... It sounds like a statement may need to be made... Why is she going to stop any of this behavior if you're just gonna hang around and wait for her to clear her head???

[Vanilla]

Hi vanilla.

I'm genuinely grateful for the input but I think I'm still just not getting something here. Sorry
Ok then I am not explaining in the best way for your understanding. My issue

*I know my wife is waywad (ongoing sexually active relationship with OM(1)
You may "know" but there is no challenge to this and this behaviour and the things W says you "justify" to yourself to assuage your own guilt at not being perfect. This behaviour of Ws is unacceptable no matter what you said or did.

* my wife is also very clear there is no way back for us.
then why bother? The basics of DB is that it takes one to Tango. so what? Irrelevant. That's your view of reading her mind or accepting at face value what she says. Sandi rule 100% of what they say. This W lies, spews, manipulates like the rest of the WAS who are wayward. W isn't a special snowflake.

*I have protected all my rights to the kids as far as can without significant legal escalation
I agree from what you say

*In disagreements regarding the kids my wife continues to be unreasonable but is likely to significantly escalate and has threatened such (documented with my solicitor)
No reason to disagree. She would do this anyway if it suited her purpose. She is wayward

*The financial settlement is still to be resolved but in truth she is trying to play me and it won't happen.
I agree behind you 1000%

*Filing serves me little purpose at this stage except for 'statement' value
I agree

* my wife is likely being underhanded with a number of aspects but I cannot say exactly what. I do know she is clever and a very skilled manipulator
Yes absolutely and she is wayward and Jim knows this but gives weight to all and any of W complaints, blames and spew.

but I know where my boundaries are
are you enforcing them? And what happens when W spews, do you STFU and detach?

To go further at this stage is to escalate in a way I do not wish to
that is more than enough reason!

or to degenerate relations further
This W is wayward beware!

(no good for the kids).
the kids should not be between you and W

Her words don't hurt me,
Duh! Jim I read your threads. I analysed your conversation with W on the thread above. And above you state that W is out of R forever. Can you not see this contradicts itself? You are saying you know W is wayward, she lies, manipulates is clever and yet you give credence to her words because you feel guilty. Let go that rope Jim. Yet still you state that W categorically is out of R? So you believe what she says?

how I react to them is what hurts me
how do you react to them when she is around? Are you still trying to persuade W back into an R? Jim, I absolutely think you are one of the best dads and H material here on this board but I am concerned that you don't think that because of your guilt. W spews and you guilt yourself on anything even W blaming you for her R with her children. This is one of the most hurtful things I have read and I want to shake you good and angry about it. W takes no responsibility for W, you have taken it all and then you get told when you do that you control, which you then guilt over! W is separate to you.

and so I'm trying to do better to control my reactions
Jim this W is wayward, detach !

and act like im OK regardless.
We all do this in DB act as if

Or am I still missing something?
Yes, you are missing Jim. Concentrating on the whimsy of a wayward W and not the reality of Jim. Jim is an amazing guy, has come a long way but admits to guilt. Won't tell W WTF and detach. Gives credence and power to W and none to Jim.

I would dearly love that the Jim that I think the world of to be held up in his own eyes. To lose the guilt and to march to the beat of his own drum. To recognise his wayward W behaviour as truly wayward and to cease giving any credence to what she says. To loose the guilt and to detach.
Vanilla

[Vanilla]

I should have said, to me all that ^^^^^ seems like she is in complete control I just don't like what she is doing with that.

Absolutely not. You have the upper hand here, 75% I would say.

Unless you really believe this of course and then of course she does.

vanilla

[Wonka]

Jim,

Dude....you've got to remove those blinders for YOUR own sake.

*Filing serves me little purpose at this stage except for 'statement' value

No. It serves a HUGE purpose. Protecting yourself from financial ruin and removing yourself from a person with toxic behaviors.

* my wife is likely being underhanded with a number of aspects but I cannot say exactly what. I do know she is clever and a very skilled manipulator but I know where my boundaries are

You've done a very poor job of enforcing your boundaries because you've backed down EVERY single time W spews and issues threats all sundry. And you basically called me 'daft' for calling her shifty.

To go further at this stage is to escalate in a way I do not wish to or to degenerate relations further (no good for the kids). Her words don't hurt me, how I react to them is what hurts me and so I'm trying to do better to control my reactions and act like im OK regardless.

I think it's time to move past worrying about how W views you. Now is not the time to worry if W likes you or breaks her fingernail. Bury the Mr. Nice Guy six feet under. Put on your business hat and FIGHT for what you're entitled to....especially as a father who deserves unfettered access to his OWN children. Are your kids worth fighting for? Give it all you've got in the most important battle of your life.

You are in the battle of the Roses: York vs. Lancaster.

[Vanilla]

Wonka

We are in the Uk not US. Jim is better getting the financials done first I feel. If he files for D then this will be very difficult as the court will need to sort the Fins. W would have much more say and at the moment advantage Jim on this.

Fins first then D. I think Jim is also firmer on the Fins. But I agree once Fins done then foot down.

If W files first then Jim can counter file.

Vanilla

[jim0987]

Vanilla, wonka, thanks

And wonka please accept my apologies, it wasn't my intent to call you daft

I think I get what you're saying now (I think).

Financially Ive done what I can to protect myself in the long-term. I have avoided the disagreements over the current monthly bills because at the moment its only £150 quid differencr or so and I'm lucky enough that I can afford this (I'm also much better off than pre-BD). It doesn't seem worth it. Anytime my wife starts on this I offer to go through all the statements with her and work it out accurately - she immediately backs down.

Next step financially is to get an informal agreement signed. This will form the consent order as part of the D and is the UK govt recommended way if doing things. For me this has to be a 'clean break' agreement so D may have to be issued to do this. It will likely screw up my wife's timeline but that's not my problem (her reaction might be). The current delay is her doing but she won't accept that so I've basically stated what I've done and what I will do next. The 'clean break' is the only sticking point and in truth I suspect she will back down when it comes to it.

Kids is more complex. Courts don't like to get involved and we have an agreement which suits us both. W keeps threatening to take the kids to MILs 3 hrs away and has previously said that I will never see them again (I've told my solicitor). In her mind, she has said this, she is already being more than reasonable by not moving permanently away. She is operating from the POV that she will win a custody battle which unless I prove she is an unfit mother (which she isn't) is 75% likely under the UK system. Its not in my interest or the kids to pull the trigger on this one, though I continue to discuss appropriate precautions with my solicitor.

She denies the adulterous relationship, which is a lie but I can't prove that. Nothing I can do except call her a liar. She has said she left me because she knew she would cheat on me because I made her 'so miserable' with my 'constant accusations'. Besides she says its none of my business as our marriage is over in anything but legal terms.

I will say again pretty much everything she has said about my behaviour in the relationship is true but only half the story. It is the half I must own. And yes given my half I can't see why she would even countenance the idea of rebuilding a marriage with me (for that matter most people don't get why I still want a relationship with her). She was properly miserable for a few years and it seems she thinks that is 100% my fault. I can't change that memory and I can't argue with it, I can only not be that guy anymore (which I'm working on). I still have a lot of guilt and anger on this but I'm working on it, let's say I'm 'in piecing' with myself. It hurts to hear it and feel it but for the most part I'm able to say 'and this is what I'm doing about that'. Not a clue how we would rebuild if it came to that.

So I suppose I see it as the consequence of her actions that I have to live with is the end of our marriage and the broken hone for our children, I'm not happy about this but there is nothing I can do to change her mind for her except show the best version of me to the extent that our interactions allow (not much chance for fun or affection). To me that means calm, open, not reactionary, not judgemental (really hard for me), and respectful of her decisions. When her spew drifted into patronising me I told her that that's what it felt like and she apologised (in a still patronising way) but then backed down.

I'm giving her exactly what she wants in so far as it doesn't compromise me in relation to the kids or the finances. To that end the rest is all on her whether she sees it or not and if its not making her happy then I know its not me despite what she says. (No guilt for me to wrestle with). I'm not stood in her way at all.

In the meantime she can spew and justify because nothing I say is going to make her realise any different, but being present, calm and not reacting with sarcasm or excuses is a big 180 for me and is something I can do. Maybe there should ve more immediate consequences to her spew but I don't see what they should be or what I gain. Im trying to be more Buddhist monk about it.

So its not quite 'frankly my dear, I don't give a damn'

Its more 'I know what I need out of this and that's what I'm going to get, and with that and my own personal growth I know I'll be fine. The rest is about want and I'm prepared to let my wants go as I don't need them'

Finally (at last you might think)
DB says not to progress the divorce let them do it all. For me this is the least inflammatory and least controlling option so makes sense and doesn't appear to do me any harm. My biggest concern is that I look weak and wet noodle doing this, if she files in the way I expect her to.

Filing (which seems to be the consensus) makes a very clear statement that I do not wish to be married to an adulterous liar (judgement) and appears/feels like shutting the door. She knows what she's losing and is overtly happy with that, so I don't think it makes her feel the loss any more just gives her another 'see look how awful he's being, accusing me of stuff' and risks her escalating.

As always I'm quite lengthy in my explanation and am grateful for you taking the time to read it and help me.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, I'm not detached I still want my marriage and even though I know its over I've not fully accepted that. What I have accepted is that I need to change who I am and overcome 34 years of insecurity that's has played a big part in the loss of this relationship. DB'g and the support here is helping me to do that and living those changes is the only real prospect for making my W reconsider.

Either way I do think she will have moved out and the divorce will be finalised before any reconciliation could occur. right now her focus is moving out to her own place and pursuing her relationship with OM1. In truth I think it might only be many years and several relationships down the line for her to even consider it. I won't be standing for that long, and then if it's meant to be it will be.

[Vanilla]

Vanilla, wonka, thanks

I think I get what you're saying now (I think).

Financially Ive done what I can to protect myself in the long-term. I have avoided the disagreements over the current monthly bills because at the moment its only £150 quid differencr or so and I'm lucky enough that I can afford this (I'm also much better off than pre-BD). It doesn't seem worth it. Anytime my wife starts on this I offer to go through all the statements with her and work it out accurately - she immediately backs down.
of course she will!

Next step financially is to get an informal agreement signed.
yes

This will form the consent order as part of the D and is the UK govt recommended way if doing things.
it's almost mandated

For me this has to be a 'clean break' agreement so D may have to be issued to do this.
no they can be separate. You can have the FS under S as well. You will need a CO for absolute.

It will likely screw up my wife's timeline but that's not my problem (her reaction might be).
Both are her concern

The current delay is her doing but she won't accept that so I've basically stated what I've done and what I will do next.
go at W and the courts pace.

The 'clean break' is the only sticking point and in truth I suspect she will back down when it comes to it.
Especially now she knows that you have identified OM.

Kids is more complex. Courts don't like to get involved and we have an agreement which suits us both. W keeps threatening to take the kids to MILs 3 hrs away and has previously said that I will never see them again (I've told my solicitor). In her mind, she has said this, she is already being more than reasonable by not moving permanently away. She is operating from the POV that she will win a custody battle which unless I prove she is an unfit mother (which she isn't) is 75% likely under the UK system.
the official statistic from 2011 is that one parent only orders are 15% of all orders. Don't know where you got your stats from. Of these almost half had restraint or jail. The EU influence means joint custody is almost automatic, look at the international Rights of the Child convention signed by and full endorsed by the UK court system. In cases of children as young as 3 the courts will also get the view of the child.

Its not in my interest or the kids to pull the trigger on this one, though I continue to discuss appropriate precautions with my solicitor.
Excellent

She denies the adulterous relationship, which is a lie but I can't prove that.
you don't need to. She may be questioned in court if you counter.

Nothing I can do except call her a liar.
not true. You can counter claim if she faults first. Lying in court is contempt. w knows this.

She has said she left me because she knew she would cheat on me because I made her 'so miserable' with my 'constant accusations'. Besides she says its none of my business as our marriage is over in anything but legal terms.
Spew. Besides if she is with OM court can modify any orders including custody and fins. Ws L will have told her this.

I will say again pretty much everything she has said about my behaviour in the relationship is true but only half the story.
here is the crux of your issue. This clearly is not correct. Jim you are not accepting what we tell you. w is not taking responsibility for herself. You are, stop.

It is the half I must own.
no you don't!

And yes given my half I can't see why she would even countenance the idea of rebuilding a marriage with me (for that matter most people don't get why I still want a relationship with her).
you are trying to control what she does or doesn't want!

She was properly miserable for a few years and it seems she thinks that is 100% my fault. I can't change that memory and I can't argue with it, I can only not be that guy anymore (which I'm working on). I still have a lot of guilt and anger on this but I'm working on it, let's say I'm 'in piecing' with myself. It hurts to hear it and feel it but for the most part I'm able to say 'and this is what I'm doing about that'.
good

Not a clue how we would rebuild if it came to that.
you are worrying about tomorrow!

So I suppose I see it as the consequence of her actions that I have to live with is the end of our marriage and the broken hone for our children, I'm not happy about this but there is nothing I can do to change her mind for her except show the best version of me to the extent that our interactions allow (not much chance for fun or affection). To me that means calm, open, not reactionary, not judgemental (really hard for me), and respectful of her decisions.
yes

When her spew drifted into patronising me I told her that that's what it felt like and she apologised (in a still patronising way) but then backed down.
STFU then reinforce boundary on abuse.


I'm giving her exactly what she wants in so far as it doesn't compromise me in relation to the kids or the finances. To that end the rest is all on her whether she sees it or not and if its not making her happy then I know its not me despite what she says. (No guilt for me to wrestle with). I'm not stood in her way at all.
no other way

In the meantime she can spew and justify because nothing I say is going to make her realise any different, but being present, calm and not reacting with sarcasm or excuses is a big 180 for me and is something I can do.
yes

Maybe there should ve more immediate consequences to her spew but I don't see what they should be or what I gain. Im trying to be more Buddhist monk about it.
reinforce boundary. W I feel abused when you talk to me this way and I want productive discussions. We will talk later.

So its not quite 'frankly my dear, I don't give a damn' Its more 'I know what I need out of this and that's what I'm going to get, and with that and my own personal growth I know I'll be fine.
good

The rest is about want and I'm prepared to let my wants go as I don't need them'
why would you let your wants go?

Finally (at last you might think)
DB says not to progress the divorce let them do it all. For me this is the least inflammatory and least controlling option so makes sense and doesn't appear to do me any harm.
I do not agree DB is doing what works. In most case DBers say let the other party do the work but not always. If filing protects you then do it. personally I think that fins and vol child agreement are more important for you. This first then W goes whistle on D. If she fault files, cross file that would really slow things to a slug pace.

My biggest concern is that I look weak and wet noodle doing this, if she files in the way I expect her to.
dont agree. Cross file citing OM. Get court to question her if she denies it. But you can't fault file on A first without proof, but you can counter.


Filing (which seems to be the consensus)
not my opinion but most important is your L and yours

makes a very clear statement that I do not wish to be married to an adulterous liar (judgement) and appears/feels like shutting the door.
your feeling. Vets tell us this is counter intuitive

She knows what she's losing and is overtly happy with that, so I don't think it makes her feel the loss any more just gives her another 'see look how awful he's being, accusing me of stuff' and risks her escalating.
trying to control W again! w concern not yours

As always I'm quite lengthy in my explanation and am grateful for you taking the time to read it and help me.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, I'm not detached I still want my marriage and even though I know its over I've not fully accepted that. What I have accepted is that I need to change who I am and overcome 34 years of insecurity that's has played a big part in the loss of this relationship. DB'g and the support here is helping me to do that and living those changes is the only real prospect for making my W reconsider.
agree x 10

Either way I do think she will have moved out and the divorce will be finalised before any reconciliation could occur. right now her focus is moving out to her own place and pursuing her relationship with OM1. In truth I think it might only be many years and several relationships down the line for her to even consider it. I won't be standing for that long, and then if it's meant to be it will be.
trying to control W again but this time both W and the future. Concentrate on today.

Concentrate on today and Jim. We are repeating ourselves. Start a new year concentrating on Jim today each day.

Vanilla

[jim0987]

Thanks vanilla.

NYE was very easy to focus on myself. Very unwell and in bed by 1900. Still the positive is that by virtue of 3 minutes I haven't been sick in 2015.

I will say again pretty much everything she has said about my behaviour in the relationship is true but only half the story.
here is the crux of your issue. This clearly is not correct. Jim you are not accepting what we tell you. w is not taking responsibility for herself. You are, stop.

It is the half I must own.
no you don't!

I do get that my wife isn't taking responsibility for her parts, I could list a bunch but the main thing is that she shut down on me (and everyone else) and has 'decided' that its my fault.

What I do recognise is that I could have been a much MUCH better husband if I wasn't too absorbed in my own insecurity and feeling hard done by because my wife had shut down. Im accepting that I had a significant part in the failure of my marriage (which left her open to an affair) and I need to change that stuff about me. I would have gladly done so a long time ago had I listened and understood.


Anyways today has the more pressing issue that MIL is up to stay and so I need to make things as unawkward as I can. Which in truth I guess means carrying on like nothing has happened and resisting the urge to tell MIL about OM1. Friendly house mate

[Dawn70]

Your w and my XH sound very similar. XH refuses to take any responsibility. He just wants to keep throwing in my face how good he is being to me. Ugh! Could I have been a better wife? Absolutely! But apparently he doesn't realize that's a two-way street.

Sorry to high jack your post but just wanted to say I sympathize with your sitch. Best wishes for a wonderful new year!

[Vanilla]

"Anyways today has the more pressing issue that MIL is up to stay and so I need to make things as unawkward as I can. Which in truth I guess means carrying on like nothing has happened and resisting the urge to tell MIL about OM1. Friendly house mate"

Jim!

Conversation W "MIL is coming. She is astute and will know or if she doesn't I am not prepared for an untruth to MIL. I respect MIL too much for that. Either you disclose to her the position or I will. Would you prefer us to do so together? Let me know before MIL arrives/ has tea......

Then STFU and walk away

I can't think of anything worse for your R with MIL than non disclosure. If I remember W is leaving kids with MIL when she has a play date.

Same conversation I had with H about his family, I did not lie or deceive mine.

Vanilla