Quote: It depresses me, Tim, that we are so similar - and hairdog, CeMar, Dave36, luvhubby and honeypot - because it's starting to look as if it's something to do with our personality type that turns our partners on initially then turns them off with time.
SD, you've simply got to stop these self-defeating lines of thought. Yes, I said self-defeating.Now who's doing 180's (me)! Can you believe it's really me writing this, after what I posted yesterday? Yes, but did you read what I did when W picked me up from work? After a really crappy afternoon thinking my evening and weekend were doomed, it turned out not bad after all. Things do have a way of passing, especially if you don't let your anger get the best of you. That's why I'm so glad to have this place - I can vent it all on you guys, and then give W my best face - believe me, it helps!
Quote: Let's face it, they are are never going to DESIRE us are they?
You know what? I'm beginning to think that isn't even the goal here. Think about that for a while. You can't "make" someone desire you. However, you can CHANGE your approach and your outlook, and maybe they'll end up desiring you, or maybe not. Go back and look at my original thread from last year. I did that yesterday, and it helped. In that thread, Michele posted a couple of VERY wise things, although I didn't fully appreciate them at the time. One thing she said is that your W may never become HD, she probably won't become a "clone" of you, but that doesn't mean the two of you can't meet in the middle somewhere and be happy together. Maybe we need new goals.
I'm also wondering at this point if your W has truly passed the point of admitting that there IS a problem, and that it involves BOTH of you. Or does she, in her mind, see this as YOUR problem? If that's the case, then I think the two of you still have some work to do before you can even GET to the point of having more sex together. Notice I'm sounding like a C, but I'm not - you know how screwed up I am, so feel free to ignore this if you want to. What I'm thinking is that she may not be READY to accept her part of the problem, and if that's the case, she totally won't GET why she's agreeing to sex every week. In her mind, it's to get you off her back. It sounded easy at first, but then it gets hard, because YOU expect it every week.
Sorry, I'm gonna dump a lot of stuff on you, and I'm not sure I totally remember everything about your sitch, so try to bear with me.
I'm also wondering if it doesn't seem like you're trying to manipulate her, with your negotiating tactic about refusing to do certain jobs around the house that are "her" jobs... I may be WAY off base here, but it sounds again like things are pretty polarized between you, and you need to take care of that FIRST, before expecting greater intimacy or frequency.
You told her SHE was the one with the problem, but in fact you BOTH have at least one problem. Maybe you're just trying to move too fast. Again, I haven't gone back to review your posts... I'm in a bit of a hurry, so please forgive me if I'm getting things confused. I have to get started on this weekend's painting - there's a lot to do.
I'll check in later, but I can't "camp out" here all day today, but let me know if anything I've posted above made any kind of sense...
My Doppelganger, This is scary. Some of the things you are saying are identical to some of the things I've been saying. Like "backing off", not cleaning up etc. Two different books said that progress will come in the form of taking "three steps forward, two steps back". Any of you guys following my journal have seen me go to hell and back. The one thing that is probably good for us the vigilance of posting things here. Even if it's just BS, it at least reminds us that we are working towards something.
I'm in a similar mode right now where I need "back off" a little to decrease the pressure. W knows what my needs are now. I'm going to meet the needs she defined and then see what happens. The interesting thing is the fact that my W seems to only try to do the bare minimum. Is it wrong for me to do the bare minimum of the things she asks of me? Maybe we maintain a "baseline" then occasionally try to throw something unexpected.
Yah, you and I are going through the same phase where you are trying to get in "sync" while establishing the correct "pace".
One thing I noticed yesterday, and I've read this in all kinds of places, is this:
Quote: ACTIONS = FEELINGS
Let me explain. Yesterday morning I was fine. I was actually in a fairly optimistic frame of mind. Things were moving forward. Slowly, but moving. I had re-read Michele's wisdom, and gained insight from it. Since I was marking time, I decided to just sit down and write a bit of a song lyric to a well-known tune, since that is something I like to do sometimes.
Anyone read my song lyric yesterday? The interesting thing is, until I started writing that, I was feeling fine! As I wrote those words, especially the chorus part, a great wave of sadness came over me. It was a physical thing, like watching an actual wave move over the sand. I could feel it take hold of me. A most interesting phenomenon.
My message is this: You can feel in diametrically opposite ways about the very same thing, depending on how you look at it.
Quote: My message is this: You can feel in diametrically opposite ways about the very same thing, depending on how you look at it.
You know, there's a whole branch of psychology based on that premise, it's known as "Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy". One of the better books along these likes is: "Feeling Good : The New Mood Therapy" by David D. Burns (here on Amazon).
If my wife does something that annoys me, and I find out she was really trying to please me, my attitude changes completely. The way we think about things affects our interpretation, which changes our feelings. Of course, we have to be in touch with reality, but a lot of the time we feel bad because of "beliefs" that we don't really believe in - and that's a waste of time and emotional energy.
I used to write a lot of depressive poetry, and it always left me feeling depressed. Go figure.
My example show that clearly enough, but maybe the other statement is also true. You know how they say "Smile and the world laughs with you", to which I add "Frown and the world laughs at you". I do find it's true. If you smile, it's hard to feel sad. You don't even have to feel happy to start with, but if you plaster a smile on your face, especially if it's to show to others, before long it affects your mood.
Another example of this is that if you do tender things for your wife, it affects how you feel about her. Last evening W and I sat together and watched TV, there was a movie on called "After Hours" (Martin Scorsese). It was a very interesting movie. Anyway, we sit together at one end of the couch, and that hasn't changed, but last evening I put my arm around her a bit more closely, and ran my fingers along her arm, just idly, and I started feeling the love I have for her in a way I haven't felt recently. I continued to do things like that... I gently massaged her right shoulder with my other hand, ran the backs of my fingers along her neck, just ever so gently, but not demanding, not sexual, just as if we were newly dating and I wanted her to know how I felt about her, but at the point when you're dating where you don't know each other well enough to make assumptions. Right back to basics.
Anyway, my point is, the very ACT of what I was doing was generating tender and protective and loving feelings in me. In her, too, I think (I hope). When we went to bed, her kisses were warmer and more numerous, and she said ily. I'm sure she meant it, also.
I'm beginning to see how very far there is to go... I don't think I had a very good idea about that before, but instead of depressing me, it makes me feel more hopeful, because it may mean I've crested a bit of a hill or something, and now I can see more of the terrain ahead. That means I've moved forward.
OTOH, I overheard W talking to the EAP service yesterday when talking about setting up counselling, and I heard her saying she feels she needs "a few sessions" to figure things out. I am less and less hopeful that C will make much of a difference, and I'm beginning to think that MOST counsellors do more harm than good (see Michele's "When therapy hurts" forum).
Saturday afternoon. Quote by Tim47: You know what? I'm beginning to think that [desire] isn't even the goal here.
Surely DESIRE is what it's all about and is the true goal? We need our partners to have the desire for us to get home from work, the desire to share interests, the desire to hold our hand, the desire to kiss us passionately, the desire to tell us how much s/he loves us, the desire to go to bed with us. Without that our marriages are based on a foundation of sand continually shifting from under our feet. HDs, look at that list of desires - you have all of them and more yet your LD/NDs have none of them. How are you ever going to build a GREAT MARRIAGE without equality of desire? Earlier today W and I had a massive row where I laid all the blame on her. I had gone back to bed tired and depressed and she came up stairs and gave me grief about being "grumpy for no reason" - (like rejecting me flat last night despite it being pre-arranged and then not agreeing any follow up is NO REASON). I told her that I had been working my butt off to save our marriage and that she had done nothing at all (I knew I should have kept cool but after yet another sleepless night I just couldn’t stop myself). She argued back that she had been trying but when I asked her what exactly had she done she had no answer. I asked her how has she tried to fill my love tank and she went into a rant about psychobabble. I shouted at her that she had done absolutely nothing, would not talk to the counsellor and would not read the books and it was obvious she did not care. I then went storming downstairs and she stayed upstairs. We have not spoken since (about 3 hrs). I thought she might be reading the book but when I sneaked a look she was doing ironing. She is ND (Negative Desire) and I gauge her general levels of desire at –8 and mine at +8. We will both have to work really hard to get anywhere near equality. If we both work hard, make equal compromises and find the happy medium then both our desires will be (let me work this out a second) 0/10. Does that sound like a GREAT MARRIAGE to you? SD
Quote: We need our partners to have the desire for us to get home from work, the desire to share interests, the desire to hold our hand, the desire to kiss us passionately, the desire to tell us how much s/he loves us, the desire to go to bed with us. Without that our marriages are based on a foundation of sand continually shifting from under our feet. HDs, look at that list of desires - you have all of them and more yet your LD/NDs have none of them. How are you ever going to build a GREAT MARRIAGE without equality of desire?
I'm not disagreeing with you, Dave, but I think it's a little more complex than that. Plus, I think there may be one or two assumptions in there that are not helpful.
First of all, I think we need to be sure we're talking about the same thing here. When I said "maybe desire is not the right goal, I was talking about the thing we all feel, the lust, the thinking-about-IT-all-the-time feeling that we HD's all know and love (and HATE at the same time because we're so frustrated!). Now, there are different degrees of that, I'm sure, just as I'm assuming there are different degrees of LD.
I'm also thinking there may be different REASONS for LD. We've all read about those whose desire fluctuates. We can't understand that anymore than we understand LD/ND to begin with. However, I think we can ALSO assume that there are those who are simply WIRED differently... their chemistry and neurology are such that they will NEVER experience the same levels of sexual desire that we do. Does that make it impossible to have a fulfilling marriage with such a person? I'M NOT SURE... but I'm starting to DARE to think (and hope) that the answer to that might be "No."
One thing Michele says is that a desire gap is the norm, not the exception. If we assume that our partners are WIRED differently, and that they may NOT be able (for physical reasons) to feel the same heights of sexual desire for us that we feel for them, then 3 things:
1. That knowledge may cause us to feel differently about our situation than if we assume our partners are "doing it on purpose"
2. We may want to set different goals for our relationship
3. We may want to try different approaches.
The OTHER side of the equation, of course, is our PARTNERS. They, also, need to buy into the process, recognize that there IS a problem, that they SHARE the problem, that it is not just OUR problem, just as WE need to realize it is not just THEIR problem, and that WE have ownership of both the causes (our part of them, anyway), and the solutions. Can we (you and I) achieve a solution on our own? NO! We depend on our partner's cooperation for that. Will they be willing to cooperate if we blame them and tell them it's all their fault? I'll leave you to answer that for yourselves.
Quote: How are you ever going to build a GREAT MARRIAGE without equality of desire?
If "equality of desire" is the exception rather than the norm, then maybe, just maybe a GREAT MARRIAGE doesn't require equality of desire. Maybe it just requires equality of committment to one another, and equality of empathy.
All I'm saying is... go back and read SSM chapters 5-7 AGAIN.
Dave, I hope what I'm writing here doesn't sound sanctimonious. It isn't meant that way, truly. I'm saying it as much to myself as to you, because you all know how I've been wallowing and flip-flopping this past couple of weeks. I'm perfectly aware that I may once again be falling into the trap of false hubris, I might be totally mistaken, I might be once again crying in my beer by next Monday. I don't know. All I know is that when I see a cry for help, my instinct is to try to help. I hope I have done so.
SD Diary, Sunday morning. We had a nice constructive talk last night and have cleared the air. It seems to me that there are three states of mind to all of us HDs. There's the "Getting it" state, the "Not getting it" state and the "Think I might get it next Friday" state. We fluctuate wildly between these states and our postings change in character to match the state we happen to be in at the time. At this moment I'm in the "Think I might get it next Friday" state so that's OK but yesterday I was in the "Not getting it state" which was awful. SD
Glad to hear things are less war-like at your house now.
I've gone back and re-read your first few posts on this thread, and I have a few questions (forgive me, I really can't go through the entire thread at this point...)
First, has W read SSM? I note that she dismisses such stuff as "psychobabble", so I'm kind of doubting it, but if she has, great.
Second, if she HASN'T read it, or even if she has, have you truly satisfied yourself on whether or not she has really accepted that there is a problem? If she is still in denial, no amount of work on your part will make the smallest bit of difference.
Is it possible that "every friday night" is too rigid and restrictive to work over the long haul? I know on the face of it, it sounds like a way to almost guarantee at least once per week frequency, but doesn't it also place undue demands on you? You yourself were worried about "performing on demand" on the requisite night, maybe your W has had the same reaction. Also, what if Friday night finds you two out late or somewhere where sex is not practical? Wait till next week? Try Saturday? Couldn't she then say "It's not Friday", thereby being childish and petty, but you get my drift?
I know you won't want to hear this, but it occurs to me that you can make all the New Year's resolutions you want to, divide up the housework, and schedule till you're blue in the face, but if your W doesn't buy into the fact that there's a problem that threatens her marriage, and that SHE has a responsibility (just as YOU do) to work with you to resolve it, there just isn't going to be much real progress.
I think in this sitch (yours, mine and ours) what we need are several different kinds of goals - short, medium and long-term. We need to take a REALLY critical look at things, and decide into which category each goal belongs. We need to think baby steps all the way. For you, once a week may seem like baby steps, for your W it may be giant leaps. I'm also thinking that both partners need to dialog on the goalsetting at some point. I can have "my" goals, she can have "her" goals, but at some point we must put them together and come up with a list of "our" goals.
Goals are great, but without an action plan on how to achieve a goal, they are just words on paper. You know this from your work life, Dave. We both know how a project must be run in order to succeed. I think we need to think of our R as a very, very long project. I'm thinking at this point a useful exercise would be to proceed as follows:
1. Write a description of what my marriage will be like one year from now. This is to be a VERY detailed description, and include everything I hope my marriage can be one year from now. I need to be sure not to include anything that I don't think could be achieved within the next year, but I also need to include everything that I can't see not achieving by then.
2. Working backward, create a series of monthly goals designed to get to the "one year" goal. How many things would need to change in the first six months? In the first 3 months? In the first month?
3. Break those monthly goals down into weekly goals, and use this exercise as a way of testing the reasonableness of the overall goal-set. Revise if needed.
Then it would be necessary to "manage the project", by taking regular "status reports" - comparing actual progress against the plan, and watching for needed course corrections.
Crap - that all sounds like way too much work, and maybe not even practical. I wll give it a try, though...
