From what I read, 40-45% of all women lose their desire completely, and roughly 33% of all men lose their desire. Since most of these from both sexes are married to HD spouses, that can just about account for all the divorces in this country. Now you have to realize that relational issues very likely can cause the sexual issues, it's kind of a chicken or egg thing. You can usually tell the health of the marriage by checking the health of the sex life though.
Yea, I know it seems impossible. But literally practice makes perfect. I find that I do not communicate or share feelings with the wife very well. How will I get better and enjoy it more, sheer repetition. I need to get more comfortable with it, then it will be less painful to do the next time. Here is a link that might explain it better from a TRUE relational expert:
Basically, what has to happen is YOU need to create teh best conditions possible for your wife to be sexual. Then SHE must be willing to spend several weeks experimenting and controlling the sexual meetings until SHE finds what works best for her with the LEAST amount of effort. SHE needs to find what is easy for her, and also to get in touch with her body more. FIND WHAT WORKS!
But like you say, how to convince a ND women to have sex EVERYDAY for several weeks. That should have them rolling on the floor in laughter for a long time!
I understand exactly how you feel, really I do. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being direct; but give your wife a little credit for knowing if you are angry beyond your tone of voice. Body tension, facial expressions, etc., go into her being able to read you like a book. And even though you may not think you are being aggressive, the manner in which you say things could be killing any progress you hope to make.
For her part, I really don't think your wife has any clue how close you are to coming undone -- or she is choosing to ignore it. Be direct:
I am terribly unhappy in our relationship and I would like for us to work together in finding a way for us both to be as equally happy as can be. I do not feel I am being heard; if I am missing efforts to find a joint solution I need to know what I am missing so I can find a measure of hope. If finding middle ground is not possible for you, I would like to know. I don't want you to be anything you feel you cannot be; just as I can no longer be what I am not.
If this type of conversation puts your wife on the defense, you must keep your cool.
HER: "What are you saying? Are you saying if I don't have more sex with you, you are going to leave me? Is that what this is all about?"
YOU: "No. This is about us working together to make our marriage as happy for us both as we can be. I am not happy. I would like to be happy. We need to work together to get there. If we can't, then we can't, but I don't intend on being unhappy for the rest of my life."
Keep the conversation on the issue at hand. If she personalizes attacks, bring it back around to the issue at hand.
HER: "Well, you do this and you do that, and if it weren't for you doing this, then I wouldn't do that."
YOU: I hear you. But that is not the issue at hand. We can talk about that at another time. What I need you to know is: I am unhappy in our present relationship. I would like to be happy. We need to work together to get there. If we can't, then we can't, but I don't intend on being unhappy for the rest of my life. Can you work with me to make our marriage as happy for us both as we can be."
HER: "Why are you being like this? Why are you doing this to us. YOU were the one who did x, y, z, and I was the one at home doing q, r, s. Now you want a, b, c... blah, blah, blah. (Or insert any other attack you want)
YOU: "Okay, I must not being clear. Do you understand when I tell you that I am unhappy in our relationship?
HER: "You're treating me like a child. Why do you always treat me like a child?
YOU: "You are avoiding answering my question. It is a simple yes or no answer.
She will either answer you or she will continue to bait you and try to dodge the question. If she cannot give you straight answers to a very simple request, then you have some deicisions you need to make, later, after dinner. My point here is, keep the conversation on the point at hand and eventually she will have to answer you. When you get your answers to these questions, set another time/date to discuss what the potential solutions can be, and drop the subject. She'll need to space to breathe.
now40, I think she knows there is a problem but doesn't attach much importance to it. For example: As far as shopping is concerned I am ND. If she said to me that if I don't do the food shopping with her once a week our marriage is in trouble. I'll listen for a while, maybe go shopping once or twice then things will go back to how they were. BTW if you make one more posting you will be a "Member"! SD
Corri, I think you're example of how the HD spouse should broach the problem is exactly what we need modeled here. Your hypothetical responses from the LD spouse are right on the money. THat's exactly how I would have reacted to my X: How can you complain when I do x, y, z. Are you never satisfied?
In short, I didn't really listen. For a long time, I didn't listen because I thought X's dissatisfaction was just one of the inevitable irritations of marriage. And because I was happy, what motivation did I have to listen or change? In other words, I was selfish.
Then X admitted he was in the midst of an affair and wanted to leave me. THEN you can bet I listened. But again, there was not nearly enough discussion and I didn't *get* that he truly felt unloved. Or rather, he told me that he felt unloved but I really didn't see what I could do to make him feel more loved. Yes, he said he wanted more hugs, kisses, pats during the day, ML more often and with more passion. (Although in my defense I will say we were the twice a week type, but almost always initiated by him.)
What I did not for the life of me understand until after my divorce and when I came here and read CeMar is the PAIN and SADNESS I had caused my X. I remember saying to him once when he told me how unloved he felt (just before he left) : "But I go to sleep every night with my arms wrapped around you!" And this was true. To me, this meant I was showing my love. I TOLD him I loved him, I wanted to wrap my arms around him every night! How could he NOT feel loved??? It mystified me and I began to think maybe he was crazy or just a bottomless pit of need.
So this sort of spelling out is so necessary. But it's not the only thing needed.
The other thing is an appreciation of the deeper meaning of HD and LD. The way I see it, most of the LD wives described here are LN -- Low Need. It's not just a low desire for sexual intimacy, it's a low need for affirmation from others. Or maybe rather it's that they get their affirmation from multiple sources -- their kids, their female friends, their parents, etc. and so a smaller proportion of their need quota has to come from their spouse.
The High Need people -- let's say a man -- typically put a greater proportion of their need for affirmation and affection on one person -- the spouse. And if that spouse is LN, the LN spouse feels stifled and smothered.
It takes a very strong person to stand up to the LN spouse and admit that yes, they will only be happy if that affection and affirmation comes from ONE person, the spouse. It takes making yourself very vulnerable. And most LN spouses don't understand how very scary it is for the HN spouse to be open about this, precisely BECAUSE almost all their need for approval, affirmation and affection comes from the LN spouse. So in opening up about their sadness and dissatisfaction, they are jeopardizing their relationship with the very person who holds almost 100% of their happiness in their hands.
I sometimes wish I could turn the clock back and re-do the last two years of my marriage. So that X and I could really communicate with each other. I feel that both of us missed a lifetime opportunity to grow. It is too late now. I know I can never trust him again enough to even rehash what went wrong, to tell him that I now understand. Our communication now only goes about one or two millimeters beneath the surface.
Our kids missed out on a whole family, we will never get to enjoy our grandchildren together, we will never be able to look back and reminisce over the decades we spent together. What a waste. And why?? Because we were both too afraid to speak from the bottom of our hearts, to really listen to the other person, to admit we had let the other down, to stay committed to the marriage even when times were very very bad. In short, we had just gotten to the part where we each had a chance to grow and change. The divorce put an end to that opportunity. It is something I will always feel sad about.
SO that's why I am always exhorting CeMar to TALK to his W. One day a woman will come along who will turn his head and in a moment of weakness, he will succumb. Will he be happier with #2? Who knows? There's a good chance marriage #2 will have its own share of problems and trials. Add to that the upset with the kids.... It just seems better from where I sit to put all your cards on the table now.
Don't get me wrong, I am HD but not overly HD. I would be perfectly happy with sex 2-3 times a week, with lots of affection daily. I think this makes me about AVERAGE for a man. I know men that have sex even at my age everyday, and if they don't, they REALLY let the wife know about it! I think a lot of men in my situation would have already LEFT their wives, if they only got sex once a month! So I think that I am being VERY reasonable and patient as to what I want in affection and sex.
Quote: I think she knows there is a problem but doesn't attach much importance to it. For example: As far as shopping is concerned I am ND. If she said to me that if I don't do the food shopping with her once a week our marriage is in trouble. I'll listen for a while, maybe go shopping once or twice then things will go back to how they were.
But, if she explained that she wanted you to join her shopping so that you could help pick out your favorite things and possibly try new things together, would that make any difference in your effort to shop with her? If she was able to make it clear to you that she feels very alone and taken for granted to always do the shopping herself and she can't help but feel jealous or saddened when she sees a couple shopping together... would it motivate you more? If shopping with her made her feel connected to you and *complete* would you give it a half a$$ effort? Somehow I doubt it.
Maybe you could find a photo of the two of you when you were younger and happier. Write her a heartfelt note explaining how you felt back then and how you long to feel that way again. Tell her you love her so much and it's *killing* you that she doesn't seem to realize how important her affection is to you. After all these years your love for her has only grown and you find her just as attractive(or more) as she was back then. Just a thought.
Friday 12 noon. Thank you all for your welcome advice and kind words. I really feel as if I am moving forward and can see things I could not before. I sent her a really loving (I think) email yesterday that she said she enjoyed receiving. She has not replied yet but I have decided to send her one every week. When we were courting I always made sure she received a letter every Wednesday so that is what I will do from now on. CeMar recommended I read the Five Languages of Love and I have now read the first half. It is interesting because despite all the times I tell W how much I love her and cuddle her etc. I don't somehow get the impression that she believes me. It could be that my love language is "Affirmation" and hers is something else, say "Quality time". Yesterday evening she asked me how my day had been and instead of saying "OK" I told her what had happened in some detail. When she was telling me about her day I concentrated on listening to her and maintaining eye contact instead of letting my eyes drift away after a few words. I realise that although we talk a lot we don't necessarily always communicate well. Later when we were alone watching TV, she switched it off and we had a really constructive talk about us. I suggested that we try to make Friday nights "our nights" and suggested that to ML once a week could not do us any harm. She agreed to try for a couple of months to see how we get on!!!! Tonight I will take her out to a local pub for a drink and a little more loving talk. I'm really looking forward to it because we have not been out on our own for such a long time. If you are reading this in the afternoon, due to time zones (mine is GMT), the chances are I will be out with her at this moment. Give us your encouraging thoughts and I'm sure we will be able to feel them coming in on the trade winds. If you are reading this in the evening then chances are we will be in bed – wish us luck! An excited SD
Friday 1:00pm. Curious, I browsed the divorce forum for a while. It is heartbreaking to read and makes me determined to never put my family through that. SD
