Confusion is getting better, I think...

[25yearsmlc]

Hi Okabe,

I'm posting and quoting b/c I find it easier to address specifics that way. But I"m not sure how it prints out or how hard it is for you to read, so do let me know, ok?
And my words are in blue.

I'll start first by saying she DOES sound depressed to me. Whether she's always been this way is another point but you'd have to tell me why you married her if she's always been this way AND IF it bothers you.

I can't tell, frankly. However, a woman who says she is "lonely" is a woman who sounds depressed; certainly not happy. Also I'm picking up a lot of "I'm Stuck" from her. Seems like it's by choice but I can't tell what role you played in that, if any.

The "I want to do 'x' BUT I can't..." is usually a road to resentment. Beware of it in yourself and in her & those around you. It's a trait you don't want to pass on.

Finally got on a computer.
"Yes, well that is Often confused with OR properly labeled as "controlling". Don't scoff, it may be seen that way, like you pretty much take over & blame her for it.

It's coming across that way to ME and the other part is that it's clear you "do it all" with the expectation you'll be admired and thanked for it, and if not, you resent it.

I think"low conflict" marriage was simply a repressed one. What do you think?" ---

You may have a point. I never thought of myself that way, but it's possible.
This is what I meant by my statement. I do the cooking (always have. I like it and work in a grocery store), shopping, cleaning, laundry, pay bills, yardwork, help with the kids etc.
It was divided, but [b]skewed to me doing more things. Everyone saw this and commented at one time or another on it. I didn't mind. I defended her saying she did things as well (which she did).[/b]

How do you think it made HER feel, to hear those^^^ comments? If she heard you defending her and if you did it well, it still would have gotten to her. IMO, It'd be a hard thing to hear a h complimented for helping around the house he shares with me...and FWIW,
I think almost no one would have said a word to HER, if the roles were reversed.

Seems like when a man does a fairly normal thing (like vacuuming or picking up after a dog mess OR just calling a house cleaner), it's seen as some act of service AND OR a bit of a failure on her end...

And when a home is not well kept, it's usually seen as a reflection of her. Far more on her than on her h, for sure.

Regardless, she sounds depressed and part of it is either reflected by AND OR Caused by, the activities she's doing/not doing.


After her shoulder injury there became less she could do, so I picked up what she couldn't do in support.


Well, "in support" of, or b/c it's just what needs to be done? I don't mean to quibble with semantics here, but that phrasing was a bit...IDK, "self serving" perhaps?

Just See if it might indicate an attitude in you, perhaps underscoring your apparent view that you are the "Giver" in the R (so who is the "taker" if not her?). In her eyes it might not be seen that way at all.

For instance, I do all the maintenance of our cars & if I can't do it myself I take the car(s) in to our mechanics and see to it.

My h knows a lot more than I do about cars, but they frustrate/bore him at times. I get a feeling of security and maybe even "empowerment" from knowing the cars are well maintained, & that we are Not going to have an unpleasant "surprise!" break down. It really means a lot to me. Too many bad memories of breakdowns in college I guess.

Anyhow, I don't see this as something I'm doing "FOR" him or "in support" of, b/c it HAS to be done by someone. So, Why not me? To be clear, I do Not resent this at all. I don't "count" it either.

Make sense?



Now she is taking classes (2 classes 2x a week and 1 online class). So I told her I would support her by helping more. I do the laundry (which she used to do pre-shoulder injury), vacuuming, taking the compost out, cleaning up after the dog when he messes in house (and she has gotten home before me and said she didn't see it. Maybe she didn't).

Except for the last part, ( which you clearly resented), it sounds like you are picking up the slack b/c she's either too busy or she can't do it physically anyhow.
Do you believe ^^this?

May I assume your beef with all this, is that when the kids are at school, she has a lot more "free" time than you, yes?

At some level, do you feel she's being lazy at home? I'm not judging you for that but I am asking if it's how you feel, deep down? Or a part of you?

B/C I sense it but I also get the feeling you won't admit it, yet you want it known. Do you know what I'm asking you?

Also, what is her recovery plan for her shoulder? is she in physical therapy to regain the full use of it? If not, then she's probably sentencing herself to being an invalid of sorts - long before her time for that. That can be very depressing (as can experiencing pain.)
I had a major surgery on my leg about a year ago. I can attest that it's very easy to give up and give in, and just not DO much with that appendage ---b/c it hurts! Plus you are afraid of re-injurying it.

But if you don't do the physical therapy, you'll never get your range of motion back. I really mean that. It's a big deal.


Right now she does her school work, helps with the boys (which she does a great job),takes care of her fish, and online games.

The online games are a little bit foreign to me & I'm not sure I understand it.

I do play a video game with my h now & then. We have played our adult son when he was in NYC. That was pretty cool, b/c we could hear him on our TV and it felt like we really were playing with our kids OR we heard our youngest playing online with her brother and that was pretty cool.

So, is your w on a computer playing and thus not interacting with anyone else in the room, or does she go off somewhere to play or are all of you sort of there, either participating or watching?

Can you explain it a bit more so I can visualize what you mean?


Here are some examples of what she doesn't take care of (they are strange to me): Often won't order a pizza for dinner (asks me to do it from work since she doesn't want to give out her card #).

Hmm, her reason sounds legit. So, not weird. What else about that?

Doesn't call the doctor to make appointments or ask questions in regards to the boys half the time (says it is because of my work schedule, but I have worked the same schedule for years).


I am not clear here^^. Does she work during the day? If not, are you saying she won't make a phone call for the boys, and if so, why not?

I don't get what does your work schedule (or you having the same schedule) has to do with it. Can you elaborate?


I have picked up and mailed out her Dad and Step-mom'sX-mas gift for years.

Scorecards are never helpful or healthy or constructive in a marriage. IMO, they are always destructive forces that erode loving emotions and foster resentment.

So I'd say to stop the measuring^^^ (you are keeping score) and ditch the scorecard, and don't pick it up again. I've had a scorecard myself so I know what it can do and what we tell ourselves it's doing. But man, you have to let it go. Newsflash, THE spouse has their own scorecard and on theirs, we are way behind...


I don't tell her what to do, or what to believe, or how to think. She is much too strong for that. She is stubborn. If you push her one way, she goes the the opposite or digs in (these are her words). She can be "hyper-rational" and always have a clear reason why to not do something.

Never heard the term "Hyper-rational", but having a clear reason for doing or not doing something sounds like a good thing.

I guess what you are making the case for here^^, is how you are NOT controlling, correct?


She complained about not having adult friends and conversation besides myself through the years. I encouraged her to get a part-time job or find a club to join (she said it wasn't practical because of childcare issues). She wanted to go to school for years. I encouraged her. She said no. No money to do it, and wouldn't take out a loan and didn't think her Dad would help (come to find he would have).


So she feels STUCK in a big way. Does she blame you for it?

Why are you bringing up all this history?

If you go to MC and do this, it'll get you nowhere fast. That's why a lot of mc's are unhelpful. We rehash the past and then get mad all over again.

Div Busting is solution based, which simply means we want to know how to help matters NOW, not so much about how we got here.

The history or "how we got here" ONLY helps if you are going to stop the pattern you see. Which you could also do by simply working on it, now.

The risk you take when you go over your marital history is that 1) one or both of you will get mad again and NOT be interested in repairing things;
AND OR 2) there will be a ton of BLAME to go around, which makes both feel defensive and solutions harder to see

AND OR 3) you discover the history is NOT seen the same way and that bothers you a lot, so much so that one or both of you wants the other to see it their way and begins to discuss/argue about the past.

Just remember the main thing - that you agree on your future...not so much the past.




If I had an issue with something in our M. I'd bring it up. She doesn't. I would have to pry things out of her when I could tell there was something wrong ( I eventually told her long ago that I couldn't keep guessing and that she'd have to let me know when something was bothering her because otherwise I couldn't address it).
As far as depression goes:
I'm not sure. It seems like she has always been like this. Her: "I don't know" or "I don't care" when people ask her things about what she wants seem to be just how she is rather than being something related to depression.


Why did you marry her? (Yes I'm seriously asking you). Also, what does she feel passion for or about? What is really important to HER? How do you know that?

However, in the last 5 years she lost her Mother and her best friend. She lost her social outlet doing martial arts with me last fall after her injury. Her only social outlet is her online gaming friends (she plays 3-5 hours a night minimum). So is she depressed in light of that? Maybe. She has said she is lonely. I know that is in reference to me, but it could be exacerbated that she has very little social life. I don't know.


2 significant deaths/losses, losing a social outlet, acting stuck, AND outright telling you that she's lonely - are all pretty classic factors in depression. Plus she has a physical injury that is morphing into a painful disability...

What strikes me now, is how you resist admitting it. But yes, it's my opinion that she IS depressed. That doesn't fix anything, but it sure seems clear to me that it's a factor here.

I don't write all this to blame her or abdicate responsibility for my own problems. Just to give an additional picture of our R. I think at times that maybe I have taken on too much and has made some unhealthy co-dependency in our R. And that I need to stop taking care of her so much. Perhaps she resents it? I don't know.

Perhaps doing the things you list, (and you do LIST them) undermines her self esteem or seems like a tactic of yours to guilt or shame her, (not saying it is)
and maybe she senses that and resents it OR maybe it makes her feel lousy about herself or her life...

All I can say at this point, is that your wife needs help. Is she getting some counseling AND is she doing anything to help her shoulder? Supporting her in those efforts might be the best thing you can do for her AND for the m.

What do you think?