Busting this Divorce - Standing Firm

[HPoirot]

Thank you Starsky and Wonka for your comments on exposure and lying.

If I felt sure exposure would help save my marriage, I would do it right now. I only have a few emails from October. The one that is bad for OM is where he tried to impress my W by sending her a link to a confidential CIO conference he participated in for his company. I also have 2 where they planned dinners that show W's lying. I snooped to get those emails. If I do get any evidence to show W's recent lying, or if she is in fact having a PA, should I use it like you suggest Wonka to set a boundary on the lying? Even if it gives away snooping? I know that I am in a difficult place there because, when she's angry, she says she does not want to work on our M. I want to give her reasons to choose working on the M.

I do admit I would likely push my W from hour home if I exposed all this to W's Christian family... especially to her very-religious mom. I do want to save this M. I don't know if she lied about last night and she doesn't help things by volunteering information and seemingly being secretive at the same time. She did just text me she will travel to visit her family in February. Maybe a good time for her mom to step in.

Honestly... I'm tired of all this back and forth with her. Figuring out how to respond to her... when and which texts to answer... when to answer her phone calls. I don't call or text her at all. She seems to temperature check me with a light text like "Me and boy are having a great time!" She did that just now. I answer with "Happy to hear it" 20 minutes later. (maybe I shouldn't.) Then she'll immediately texts multiple questions like "what are you doing?" "when will you be home?" or "I'm going on a trip home! Do you want me to take the boy?"

At times like this, I'm starting to not want anything to do with her. It's like she wants me to be the bad guy who is responsible for ending our M. So she keeps pushing and poking me to so she can say things like... "well I offered MC but you didn't accept," or "well I tell you where I'm going but you are still suspicious," or "I call and send texts but you're not talking to me." It is maddening how she's expecting reasonableness from me while she acts in ways that she knows are deeply hurtful to this family.

Doesn't matter... I'm still to pull way back while acting friendly and as if I'm moving on. Unless I cause her to leave... we have until June to live together. I just have to get better at being better me on days like this.

On the other hand... I'm starting to get overwhelmed with options. I just want to feel good about the track I'm on. I know that I wont get that feeling from her and I shouldn't look for it. Better to see that I'm doing what I know I should be doing and judging my results on my execution.

I'll have to make another list of what I'm doing so I can feel clear again.

[Starsky309]

HP,

You do not need to (nor SHOULD you, ever!) reveal the source of your intel in order to lay a "no deceit" boundary. All you need to do is put your hand up in the "stop" position and cut her off, saying "Please STOP IT. We BOTH know you're lying to me right now, and it's incredibly disrespectful. I know all about you and ______, so please stop lying to me about him."

And remove yourself from the conversation.

If she presses you for what you know, or what you THINK you know, just say "pretty much all of it," and do NOT reveal the source of your intel.

There is power in them not knowing what it is that you know or don't know, as she will have to assume you know the worst parts. Especially if your actions are of a man who discovered the worst parts.

Starsky

[Wonka]

HP,

I am siding totally with Starsky on the not revealing your intel. Just state matter of factly that you know that the contact is still ongoing and that you'll not tolerate the constant lying, half-truths, or lying by omission. Starsky has given you a good script to put the kibosh on W's lies.

You ask:

I want to give her reasons to choose working on the M.

By becoming the kind of man that only a fool would leave. Seriously. Go back to your previous thread. We all worked together to come up with a game plan which is very good for you to stick with. Keep working on yourself, GALing, and doing some serious, permanent 180s that you can live with for the rest of your life regardless of what W does or does not do.
After all, this is YOUR own life to live. No one else can live it for you.

Maybe a good time for her mom to step in.

We advise against bringing in family and friends because it just muddies the waters and complicates things for you and W.
Leave them out of it.

Honestly... I'm tired of all this back and forth with her. Figuring out how to respond to her... when and which texts to answer... when to answer her phone calls. I don't call or text her at all. She seems to temperature check me with a light text like "Me and boy are having a great time!" She did that just now. I answer with "Happy to hear it" 20 minutes later. (maybe I shouldn't.) Then she'll immediately texts multiple questions like "what are you doing?" "when will you be home?" or "I'm going on a trip home! Do you want me to take the boy?"

Are you saying that you prefer the alternative which is acrimonious relations with W?? Is that what you REALLY want? Count your blessings, HP. As I said in the validation tip sheet, you can mirror WAS with KISS responses. Detach from them like you would text a good friend from college days.

At times like this, I'm starting to not want anything to do with her. It's like she wants me to be the bad guy who is responsible for ending our M. So she keeps pushing and poking me to so she can say things like... "well I offered MC but you didn't accept," or "well I tell you where I'm going but you are still suspicious," or "I call and send texts but you're not talking to me." It is maddening how she's expecting reasonableness from me while she acts in ways that she knows are deeply hurtful to this family.

Mindreading at its finest...yours truly!

I'll have to make another list of what I'm doing so I can feel clear again.

You don't need to make another list. The original one back in your previous thread is a very GOOD one. Stick with what' has been working so far. You are all over the place emotionally and you need to find your center. The holidays does a number for many, many posters...especially newbies.

Don't let the June "deadline" bother you so much because a lot can happen between now until then or even beyond that. This is precisely why we don't like to put a hard number on a deadline because DBing isn't always a linear process.

FYI, Ms. Wonka initaited a text wishing me a Happy Thanksgiving and gave me some tidbits on food and weather. We exchanged a few then it has now all ended for now (probably until Christmas). Guess what? I am perfectly okay with it and not reading too much into it. Why? Because I am detached and not too concerned about the outcome. I simply enjoyed the exchange and did not expect a dang thing. I've kept my expectations at zero. As a result, I am not bothered by her actions or lack of actions.

I am living my own life. I don't look at the review mirror constantly. If I did, I'd crash into the tree for sure!

[HPoirot]

Well... I was in the bedroom working and W laid down on the bed next to me and started talking...

W did tell me about her evening at the show. I can accept what she said.

Then she said she was starting her IC again tomorrow. This started her talking about R. I again let her go on and I shouldn't have!

She said she considers us separated now and that's still what she wants. She said she thought a lot about me yesterday... that her being out and about on her own was like being separated. She was sad about it. She then asked me if I had thought of how actually being separated would be. I warmly said no b/c that's not what I want. She said, "I'm sorry HP." I should have said yes to show I was moving on. In all... I didn't talk much... but when she asked I was too honest about me standing for our marriage. I even said that once. I made a GIANT mistake there. Damn she just kept talking and asking me things and I kept trying to stop her saying... let's just focus on the move and go from there. I tried and did not just stop her! I did not just leave and I should have!

She asked me if I though we could live together in the condo were moving to. I messed up warmly saying "yes... I'm not the one with the problem living together" or something along those lines criticizing her. Damn.

Then later she said, "well we're not going to MC." I said something like, "W I do want to go to MC with you. In your last email you suggested that now we could." I reminded her she said she would cease contact with OM which means we could go to MC. She said she still thinks about him and does not want to stop contact. She said she wants to go to MC to figure out how to separate. She asked me if I would agree to the same. I said no. I asked her if she would make the appointment and she said yes. I told her do it in a couple weeks as she said she would start her IC again tomorrow.

At the end... she said I was smiling like I didn't take what she said seriously. I said everything she said is serious. She said I have no idea... serious like a heart attack.

So I was good and warm and said too much and let her talk again too damn much. I let it show again that I'm not really moving on. Damn. Damn. Damn.

I should have just agreed and validated everything she said. I know better! Now I feel like I've really blown a great chance to show me moving on. She kept asking me to accept her view and I when it mattered I did not.

How bad is this?

[sandi2]

She said she wants to go to MC to figure out how to separate. She asked me if I would agree to the same. I said no. I asked her if she would make the appointment and she said yes. I told her do it in a couple weeks as she said she would start her IC again tomorrow.

I got a little lost here. Are you, or are you not, agreeing to go to MC if she makes the app't?

I wanted to comment on your statement about time for her mother to step in. Yes, her mom could guilt her into staying in the home. But she can do nothing to change her heart. I don't think your W would stop contacting OM just b/c her mom guilts her. She may lie and say so, but if she won't do it for her H, she won't do it for her mother. And even if she did, is that how you want her? Hating you for putting her (in her frame of mind) in the dreadful position of having to stay where she doesn't want to be.

FWIW, I agree that you should never reveal your source of intell.

[HPoirot]

I agree if there was no contact with OM. So far all I have is her word just now. We would go in with different goals though... Ws to figure how to separate and me to R.

[sandi2]

I think our posts hit at same time when I went back to edit.

[sandi2]

I agree if there was no contact with OM. So far all I have is her word just now. We would go in with different goals though... Ws to figure how to separate and me to R.

The different goals is why the MC doesn't work to save the M. She has to be at the point of wanting to do the right thing and work at saving the M. MC or family therapy is needed to guid theM in piecing

Was that her goal when she was wanting to use that other M program?

[HPoirot]

No she wasn't at the point to want to save our M with the couple's weekend either.

[25yearsmlc]

HP,
--- holidays do a number on almost every single newbie and the WAS which is why you find the vets circling around the DB forums to offer extra support.
I wanted to circle back to you as you posted a comment:

I've seen exposure work to end affairs many times over the past several months. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. My personal research (following many threads on many different forums) suggested that exposure was more likely to achieve reconciliation. Was I wrong? Well there's no way to know now, is there? Just as there's no way to know if exposure would have worked when it wasn't tried.

All success stories whose Ms have been restored you read about here were/are achieved with zero exposure (or nearly zero). They have never considered exposure and worked extremely hard on themselves that re-attracted their wayward spouses. I like DB so much because it is the best EVER self-improvement program for it forces one to look inward and examine one's beliefs, values, patterns and attitudes.

THIS^^^ is in alignment with the Div Busting approach, and exposure is NOT.

This is a place that advocates self work, and has a specific belief against exposure for good reason.
FTR, I have Heard that exposure has worked for a few people. Starsky says it did for him, and he says it has for others whom he knows.

I have seen it backfire a solid 20 times, at least. And I mean, big time backfire, btw. Never have I personally seen it work. In fact, I have only seen it do damage and in my heart of hearts, I've rarely If ever believed it came from a good place in the LBS heart...and not from a desire to punish or humiliate or shame the "wayward" spouse.
I've also never seen a shamed spouse return home, and stay,. Shame can only last so long before it morphs into something else.

One example of how exposure is viewed by others, is this: I'm an admin of my High School class FB page. (That's what you get for being class president Three decades earlier...)
Someone asked me to "delete a weird" message on the board. So I went to see what they were referring to, and it was a post from the wife of a classmate.

The wife blasted a female classmate for "stealing" her h "at the last reunion" and warned the rest of us to "protect our h's" so it would not happen to us at the upcoming reunion.

MY reaction was one of pity for her, the wife, and concern for the two classmates and their reputations. (I had no idea if the claim was true).

The guy who called the post to my attention in the first place, described the wife as "a real nut job" and a few others said things like "wow, hell hath no fury like a woman scorned". Not a single one of them blamed the h OR the OW/classmate. They recoiled from the wife! They viewed her as damaged goods and a few said things like "No wonder he left her".

I felt that our class's FB page was not the place for the wife to make such an accusation. Anyhow, it was deleted. But I'd bet anything that the reaction the wife wanted, was SO NOT what she got... Which also made me pity the wife.

Just had to say this ^^ b/c again, exposure is NOT a tenet of DBing yet it keeps being brought up again--Sure, discuss it, but the promotion of it, that does bother me. I don't see the goal of it as working, either.

Remember that the underlying philosophy here, is the concept that we must work on ourselves and not focus on the OP or our spouse, and the troubling reality that an affair does not "cause" a troubled marriage; it is a symptom of one.