I wish I had more to report on the DB stuff. I'm still waiting for the USPS to get the books to me (I'm VERY eager to start reading them). But I barely see or talk to my wife (once a day, on average, and I spend that time with my son)and when I do, all I get is cold, angry nothingness from her. I have read a LOT of threads on here, and that seems to be a common theme for a WAS (Sandi2's replies in this thread have indicated that this is the status quo as well). This may be the thing I am having the hardest time with.
In my mind I wonder how can you have been with some one for so long and treat them like a stranger or adversary? How do YOU make the decision to move out and then act like the other person is some sort of 'bad guy'? How do you ruin a family financially and behave like it's the fault of the person left behind and get angry when they don't have the money to financially support your decision to leave? How do you even remotely have it in mind that the breaking up of a marriage will have no negative fall out on all parties involved and, when it does, you blame the other person for it? How is it so hard to simply say 'hi' or 'bye'? Why do I still want to reconcile? I don;t have an answer for this last one either, I just know - with every fiber in my being - that I do.
It hurts, of course, but it makes me angry and frustrated as well. More so because I can't point to a 'thing' and say, "Ah, yes, this is why." As I mentioned in my OP, I didn't have an affair, didn't hit her, had no addictions, didn't hide anything from her and so on. I'm not perfect by any means, but I just can't find that 'thing' that I can point to, that reason to explain why we are where we are. Every thing else that may have been wrong in our marriage was - at least in my eyes - all stuff that could have been worked out or had already been worked out. I just wish I had some answers. It's likely I will never get them.
As I was writing this, wife dropped my son off (she goes to work early, so I drop him off at school before I go to work). After she left, I noticed that his shirt was close but not his 'uniform' school shirt. I called her to let her know and to find out if there would be a problem with that, and immediately she got a nasty tone in her voice and let me know it was fine. This is an example of what I've been talking about. Such a simple matter, such a small thing, becomes an angry moment for her.
I know there is no understanding this, but I wonder what it is that's in her mind that is causing her to be this way? Why would someone choose to be so angry without real cause? It dashes my hope that we can ever get past this, moreso because there is apparently no reason for it.
I know I likely never will, but I wish I had some answers.
This is an example of what I've been talking about. Such a simple matter, such a small thing, becomes an angry moment for her.
I know there is no understanding this, but I wonder what it is that's in her mind that is causing her to be this way? Why would someone choose to be so angry without real cause?
From your first post: I had a habit of pushing my point too hard in arguments,
She is the kind of person who keeps things bottled up and does not communicate well (or at least not in a way I understand), and holds on to resentments.
John, these things all go together. Your W has not felt heard in your M. She's not good at expressing herself to start with, and you apparently didn't listen well. You pushed your own agenda in arguments and admit that you don't understand her. When a woman shoves emotions deep down inside her for too long, they tend to pop out an unexpected moments. Like when you question the shirt she put on your kid. There is a cause, you just aren't looking at the right thing.
The other thing to recognize here is that anger is often a mask for other emotions. Fear, sadness, rejection, lonliness. There very may well be a different emotion behind the anger, and it would take some work to dig it out.
I speak from experience on both these points. I just didn't walk away.
Thank you for the perspective, rppfl. It is sincerely appreciated and very welcome. You're spot on as well, I might add.
Her bottling of communication is one of those chicken and egg things. She was always kind of that way. In the beginning of our relationship I helped her come out of her shell quite a bit. She's always had a lack of confidence and some self esteem problems. She used to try to do extra things for me, going the extra mile, giving in, because she though it would make her more attractive to me. I recall many times where I let her know that her happiness was just as important as mine, and she only had to put that much effort into things is SHE felt comfortable with that. I always like doing stuff for her, but that's my nature, I wasn't sure if it was hers and I didn't want her to feel like she had to.
That being said, I understand full well the damage I did to her openness by being as overbearing as I was at times. And I was. And I regretted it and did my utmost to change that aspect of me that was causing the problem...both for her and our marriage as well as for myself as I realized I didn't like that about me. More so during my cancer thing, I realized that I had been way, way to pushy when I thought I was right about something I believed was important. Believe me when I say that I did a lot of work on that aspect of myself long before she left and was deeply remorseful that I had become that way to her.
Of course, my reparation of my self in this respect went unnoticed by my wife. And she was justified in being skittish concerning this as well and holding on to her perception as opposed to what I had changed.
I am very, very hurt by her leaving. I certainly can point to numerous things I believe she did wrong in our marriage. Only a couple of things really matter in the end. But I can also point at a lot of the things I did to do damage to our marriage...I just don't see them as enough to make her leave without trying to work it out nor be as outwardly angry or cold at me as she is now. Of course, she does.
I know it sound contradictory in some ways. But people change over time. In some ways I changed for the worst. Then I changed for the better in more than a few ways(not perfect, just a whole lot better). I would give much to have had her notice and to open up to me when we still had a chance to do so. Or to believe in me enough to pay attention to who I had become (gotten back to) as opposed to that which she thought I was based on a long ago track record. I hope we may still have that chance. I would give anything to have that opportunity.
I mean the DB stuff - as well as any insights that my fellow devotees may offer - is why I am here, and what I'm more than willing to try as nothing else I have done has worked. I'm a very direct person, so the DB techniques go very much against my personality. But, perhaps, its my very personality that need to be conquered for an opportunity to arise to bring my wife and I closer. My ego doesn't like that thought, but the rest of me is telling my ego to shut up and go home.
I may not understand her anger, but I never said I do not give it credence. She obviously has her reasons, whether I see them or not. But I welcome the opportunity to understand it better through the experience of others. So thank you, rppfl, for your spt on observation. Should you have any more, I welcome what you may have to add.
The anger is to protect herself. If she wasnt angry she would be vulnerable. It is a wall that they erect. It is how they rationalize their actins. Your job is to not fuel that fire. You do this by not texting calling. You give them space. They will make mountains out of nothing. It is script that they all follow.
What do you do? You live your life. Make yourself happy by doing things meeting people. You dont sit around waiting for her. If you do she will notice. Guess what happens? She gets angry.
M 53 D 20 Separated 6/22/11 moved out 10/24 Together 26 yrs Married 16 W Filed for D 7/21/11 Served 9/6/11 D final 8/28/12
“Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be.”
In my mind I wonder how can you have been with some one for so long and treat them like a stranger or adversary? How do YOU make the decision to move out and then act like the other person is some sort of 'bad guy'?
Who are you talking about? The girl you fell in love with and married, or the woman who has emotionally walked away from you and left the M? B/c they might as well be two different people. You have to stop thinking of her as being the girl you M. You'll go crazy before the holidays get here if you don't change how you to deal/think.
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How do you ruin a family financially and behave like it's the fault of the person left behind and get angry when they don't have the money to financially support your decision to leave?
B/c she has bought in to the fantasy. She believes the lie that all WAW's tell themselves.
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How do you even remotely have it in mind that the breaking up of a marriage will have no negative fall out on all parties involved and, when it does, you blame the other person for it?
Pretty much the same answer as above. When her mind is fogged, she can't see herself having those type of consequences. She won't let her brain go there. And if anyone tries to tell her, she'll just write them off her list and withdraw from them. That's how WAW's do. Anyone who doesn't support their new lifestyle, they're through with them. This includes parents, best friends, etc.
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How is it so hard to simply say 'hi' or 'bye'?
I have been accused of being too harsh when I say some of these things, and that I should be more delicate with the LBH. I am not being harsh with the LBH, but I'm being realistic about the WAW. So, I'm going to lay it out here and tell you. There are mainly two reasons that I know why the WAW finds it hard to say hi or bye. 1. The LBH has no idea the depth of her anger and feelings of revulsion toward him. Do you feel the need to be polite to someone you have these feelings toward? Well, she doesn't. 2. She will not do the least thing that might give you any ideas of her changing her mind. Smiling, waving, speaking or saying goodbye/goodnight, etc. all indicate things are okay.....and she is giving you a message loud and clear, "Things are not okay and will never be okay again!"
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Why do I still want to reconcile? I don;t have an answer for this last one either, I just know - with every fiber in my being - that I do.
Well you are the only one to answer that one. However, I have seen many LBH's who think they will just die if he doesn't get his W back, and he just can't let it go. Then.....she decides she wants to reconcile. As soon as she goes back to the M, his feelings change. He starts having problems with forgiveness. He begins having resentment. Whereas, nothing bothered him before.....he just wanted her back! So he gets what he wanted and then he discovers he doesn't want it any longer.
You see John, these guys didn't really work on themselves. They didn't follow the advice. Their goal was winning the WAW. They saw something as a challenge, something they couldn't have. They were willing do anything (so they thought) until they got what they wished for. Then they couldn't handle it b/c they had not applied the whole DBing. It's more than just saving the M from a D. It is about saving yourself, first. Then save the M.
Does that make sense? Sure you are heartbroken and hyper-focused on her right now. Sure the holidays will be rough, but who is going to help you the most? Who is going to become your best friend? Who is going to make you get out and do something, even when you don't want to? Who is going to take care of you? Who will never be able to leave you? I hope it is JohnJC. If so, then you will be able to grow in leaps & bounds during a time you never thought possible. You will become a winner, whether she ever comes back or not.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I may not understand her anger, but I never said I do not give it credence. She obviously has her reasons, whether I see them or not. But I welcome the opportunity to understand it better through the experience of others. So thank you, rppfl, for your spt on observation. Should you have any more, I welcome what you may have to add.
John, you are in very good hands with Sandi and others here. I'm fairly new and trying to figure it all out myself, but I will comment on this, as it's something I've been working on for myself lately.
One of my own personal issues in my M is that I didn't express myself well, stuffed emotions, and then snapped out in anger an inopportune moments. I have come to understand that about myself, and have worked very hard at expressing myself more in the past 7 months since BD. I try to identify my emotions, sit with them instead of whisk them away, and then find the opportunity to express them to H, or someone else, depending on the situation. As far as your W goes, that's something she's going to have to recognize in herself, and fix herself. You can't do either of those things for her.
As far as why I felt unheard in my M, I have to say that some of it had to do with the "fix it" mentality of men. I would express something, H would offer a "fix", and that was the end of it, let's move on. If you do that to your W, stop it, let her talk. My H has other issues that probably don't apply to you, and it's not like he's made any effort to work on hearing me, so I have little else to offer you in what to do from your end. But one wise lady on this board told me that she and her X had settled into something that worked for them and it played out like this. When XH snapped at her, she asked him if he had an issue with her. That gave him the opportunity to say 1)no, and explain what the real issue was, or 2) yes. If it turned out to be yes, she would then ask what he needed from her. That gave him a chance to express himself.
Another thing I've really worked on lately is my listening skills. I read The Lost Art of Listening and thought is was helpful, and something I could apply to any relationship. In your sich, it may be helpful in helping your W feel heard. And if it doesn't, it's something you've done for you, which is all you can control anyway.
Bottom line is, Rick is right. Live your life. Sandy is right, make yourself a winner, whether she ever comes back or not. It's all we can control here.
Thank you so very much Rick Sandi and Rppfl. I sincerely appreciate your feedback, and thank you for lending your support and knowledge
. I think you all hit on something, and your words have given me much to think about. Too much, as it will take some time to fully digest what you all said. Not because what you wrote is incomprehensible, but because - added together - its a bit profound. And thank you for the reading tip, Rppfl, I'll look for it.
I did finally get the first book in the mail today (I'll be starting it as soon as I close my laptop). But if there's one ting I have learned so far is that i have far too many expectations and assumptions (and, maybe, a bit of wishful thinking). I'm looking too hard for logic in the irrational. I need to stop that. I need to work ON me before anything else and stop focusing on what I feel is being done TO me. Detach. It's harder than I'd like to admit.
And, Sandi, i don't think you're being to hard on us LBS' at all. At least not to me. Your candor is welcome and necessary for me. More so the last few paragraphs you wrote. I hadn't really thought about what would happen if my wife and i found ourselves back together. I mean I thought about it, of course, but not to the depth I would need to envision what the reality might be like.
I have no doubt that I would carry at least a portion of my current hurt with me to some extent. It makes me wonder if that would be even worse than us staying apart. But, upon very careful reflection, I'm as sure as a guy can be that I would be able to forgive and move forward. Because the family unit is the most important thing to me. Our reconciliation, should it happen, is far bigger than just my alleviation of pain.
The bigger question to me is, at the end of it all, will she be someone I would want to love? The person she is right now is not, by any means, someone I should even glance at much less someone I would give my heart to. But I need to find out for sure who she is - or who she will be - before I make that determination. I guess, in the end, I am just looking for the opportunity to see if it will be worth it. The big picture (past + present + future) says it will. The present, by itself, equals nothing but misery.
Thank you again, folks. I can't begin to let you know how much I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts and knowledge with me, a complete stranger. Your courtesy warms me.
I went to see my son the other night. I always call my wife ahead of time before I come over. I called twice and decided to just go over in case her phone was dead.
I show up and her car is not there. I call her again and she finally answers. I ask her where she is because I would like to see my son. She says he's at her place with her mom. So I ask where she is to which she replies angrily that its none of my business. I should have just said, 'ok', but stupid me says, "I thought we could have gotten over this anger and be honest with each other by now'.
I go in to see my son and my mother in law gets a call from my wife while I was there. i don't know what was being said on the other end, but it seemed my wife was pretty pissed.
I screwed up, and should have kept my mouth shut. While her reaction still brings up the questions of 'why is she being like this', I'm angry at myself more than anything.
Yes you made a mistake. Learn from it and move on. Are you getting a life yet? Stop waiting around for her to come back. She does not feel married to you anylonger. I am sorry to be blunt. I did the same thing to myself. It is very hard stuff. Sureal stuff.
Imagine your neighbor asking your whereabouts and why u arent home at a certain time? That is how she views things.
Let her go...
M 53 D 20 Separated 6/22/11 moved out 10/24 Together 26 yrs Married 16 W Filed for D 7/21/11 Served 9/6/11 D final 8/28/12
“Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be.”
