Live-In WAW--Piecing???

[eddy]

Merrick I agreee with Bridget on this one. Maybe it is time to move out. Give her the space and see what comes of it. You are going nowhere in your present state. Talk to your lawyer and see if some kind of deal like I am doing is a possibility? Im in the house for 2 days she is in for 2 days and the weekends alternate every other. They call it a 2-2-3. It sounds like a pain but I like it. The kids stay, you still get considerable time with them and still get time for you. The other man thing is none of your concern. You can do nothing about that. Its a cheeseless tunnel dude. Who cares if he is in the picture. The seperation will give your w a taste of life on her own. This reality is setting in hard on my W. Be strong and really disconnect and show her your strength. Let her own guilt and conscence work on her I wish I had more time to chat on this subject Merrick. I am off to the north woods for the weekend so I wont be around a computer till Monday. I will try to think on this more over the wweekend while Im drownding worms and skiing. Thinking of you... KOFTGF, God Bless, Eddy

[DBB]

Be strong and really disconnect and show her your strength.

M,

Eddy, as usual, is on. You are fighting her every step of the way. Think about what you would suggest to someone if you read this thread as a 3rd party?

Think about what you tell others and why you will not listen to yourself? You cannot "fix" this; but you can break it apart permanently. We all know how impossible it is to do nothing, but right now you have little choice but to focus on you and the children.

Right now, I have NO conversations with W about R or M. I long for that. But intellectually, I know it would be nonproductive. She may well file and we will never have another R discussion, but right now, as you say, isn't being pleasant to each other and able to have an everyday conversation better than the alternative?

hang in

let go

write

[merrick]

B-

Now you'll know why I said you are lucky that your W left. Imagine your sitch and your W's current attitdude towards M, but every day she wants to know when YOU are going to leave in order for her to move on with her life. She lied about OM and on top of that, she gives you a budget where she keeps all the money!!!!!!

I have not had a R talk in almost three months and also told her to offer me a proposal on how she thinks a divorce will work on paper and I'll look at it in good faith. I added that, until then, nothing is going to happen. So rather than go forward, she keeps asking me when I'm ready to free her and complaining that I am trapping her. The issue is whether or not to call her bluff and move--but that would accelerate the legal process of my timetable--not hers--and (trust me on this), enable her to say I wanted the sep.

I have solicited advice on whether to leave from day one. DB Coach Laurie was of the opinion that I should stay, and I have not really detached until the last month. Eddy's suggestion on a split arrangement is a good one (the one major difference between my sitch and Eddy's is that my W's R with OM is unlikely to go anywhere--I know Eddy has been unable to shed more light on his story, but we do have some differences). I could float Eddy's idea with W, but suspect she'll reject it out of hand. Maybe not. Alternatively, a while back I suggested an in-house agreement whereby we explicitly define responsibilities for $$$, household responsibilities, and care for the children.

All of these are issues that I will explore with Laurie this week. I also suspect the agreement drafted by her attorney will give us a better baseling for further discussion. We'll see. That's enough for me until tonight. Thanks.

Merrick

[ChristineE]

Merrick,

I'm afraid that I must agree with Laurie on the separation issue. I know you are getting conflicting opinions here, but I believe that, if you leave, you lose out on MAMY opportunities to DB. I have read countless threads on this BB where the LBS wishes that they could be in the same house in order to DB. When there is a separation, your chances to show and try new things is minimal. The key here is to detach while being with her...maybe more out-of-body experiences.

Regarding the ILs, you have to DB with them too. Every interaction you have with them has to be as if you are DBing with them too. Don't argue or get defensive...just validate and acknowledge.

Christine

[Underdog]

Merrick,

I don't want to start a brouhaha on your thread... and it will be good to get Laurie's feedback on this.

But I see a few things here. At the risk of being very unpopular with my thoughts, I'll proceed with caution.

Your W has now resorted to unfair tactics to get you to do what she wants. The more I read what she does, the more I think that someone is going to have to let the air out of the balloon so that you have something to work with.

I know that NY is not a no-fault state and leaving without a SA is the kiss of death. So if you were to agree with her by doing that, I would make sure that your ducks are lined up legally.

IMHO, her tirades are getting worse and she's badmouthing you behind your back. I imagine that she's not feeling the slightest bit guilty about dragging your name through the mud in front of your children. Even if it's a really diluted version, it's still not good for you OR the kids.

Maybe if you DO give her what she wants and use this as an opportunity to hit a reset button, you will have something to work on with her.

You have 3 children, which means that you will have lots of opportunities to DB with her. Just because you're separated doesn't mean that you don't interact. In fact, Mr. W. has commented on this very issue--one that Michele addresses a couple times in each of her books: Separating your M does not mean that you won't have as much (if not more) interaction with your S.

Right before we moved out, we had horrible rows. They would always end up with me crying and him yelling at me, saying he didn't care how I felt--it was important for HIM to not live in pain anymore.

There was nothing I could say or do to stop that train wreck. And the day he left, I was convinced that our M was really and truly over.

Look at how far we've been able to recover since then. And we've done it by living apart. It doesn't have to sign the death knell.

Sometimes getting what we want and jamming our will into His process is our wake up call. Is it possible that your W might find that getting what she wants isn't what she thought it would be with some distance and loving detachment from you? She just might discover how she truly feels if she's not so hell bent on getting her way?

I have more than a few friends off the BB who have separated in heat and reunited. I've spoken about my surrogate parents here... N kicked her H out of the house and they were able to reconcile later on down the road. She hurt so badly and got herself into IC to heal her own wounds, and found that her faith was tested... and her H was in C too. And always wanting to reconcile with her.

They just celebrated their 47th anniversary over the holidays.

Whatever path you choose, I think you'll be able to continue to work on things with your family. Never give up, but maybe give in sometimes????

Hugs,

Betsey

[DBB]

Darn that Bets,

She is always so logical. I will tell you this; my M may not be saved, but there is considerable less tension between me and W now that she has left. I do not believe she has given any thought to returning, but she has been out only 3 weeks. And she told she was not coming back. Ironically, I see her more now, than when she was here. Whenever she was here, I left and vice-versa. We were avoiding each other. She said time and time again, she had to get out of the house to survive, she was miserable and did not look forward to coming here. But now, she comes around. The WAS contradiction I call it.
Believe me, as Bets testifies to, you are certain your M is over when the other person leaves and it may well be, but the alternative, as you know, is not good for anybody.
But you will know in your heart what you need to do.

hang in

write

[merrick]

Betsy-

You won't start a brouhaha and this is exactly what I see the BB for--sharing and getting ideas. I cherish everyone's thoughts. I think the sep. question is like a see-saw, with one approach or the other on top at any given time and the potential to shift.

A long Betsy post, however, requires a long reply and hope my fellow DBers can stick with me.

In the doing what works department, staying doesn't appear to have worked, but then again, I have exhausted the possibilities of staying put. The best reason for leaving as I see it is that it radically changes the dynamics of the current sitch and shakes things up for entirely new approach to myself and the R. I will lean heavily on Laurie and my own gut for now.

The three things holding me back are 1) legal, 2) the Kids; and 3) effectiveness.

1) The legal issues can get messy, but she is finally having an agreement drawn up that will reflect how she thinks this would work. I really need that since she is not prone to compromise and it gives me a much a better sense of what I can expect on thelegal front. This had to be her first move.

2) The impact on the kids is hard to gauge, but there is near universal agreement that divorce/sep has an adverse impact and the goal of parents is to mitigate that impact. Conversely, a bad family atmosphere also is bad for the kids--although Judith Wasserstein (sp) felt that in the absence of actual conflict, staying together might be better. I agree that the absence of love and affection between H & W is not helpful, but it seems that the problems are most severe when this is the permanent condition--which is not my aim and argues for more time before leaving. In item three below, you will get a more of a flavor of the impact on my kids.

3) The dynamics in our R is that while I may have been emotionally distant when W needed me most, she really called all the shots because I was indifferent to many of things she cared about. On two of the most important issues we faced--moving back to NY (and my shifting career) and the potential for more kids (vasectomy), she cried, begged, and prodded (similar to now) until she got what she wanted. Not that I had no say, but she made it clear that our lives would be miserable unless we pursued her course and I followed her wishes (because I loved her).
The third most important area has been a ten-year battleground on how to discipine the kids--we never got onthe same page and butted heads--with predictable results. Strife.

For most of W's entire life, she has got what she wanted. Perhaps she is to be given credit with sticking for me so long given her perceptions of the world, but when the going gets tough for her--she generally gears up and wears down the opposition or just quits when the oppositon is resistant. Rarely is there true compromise and when she pursues a course of action--she is determined to have her way. Indeed, once she actually said the D word and told others, I knew I was in the deepest trouble of my life.

Another example of her winner take all attitude is when you question (even politely), an approach taken with the kids. Her usual answer is, "Oh? So I'm a bad mother?" In fact, any perceived criticism is taken as, "So sue/kill/punish me because I'm not perfect." She allows no criticism and casts unreasonableness back upon the critic by accusing the critic of putting her to an impossible standard--perfection.

THUS, I can't help but think leaving will feed the devouring winner-take-all beast. Moreover, she has told me on several occassions that others told her if I leave she'll be miserable, but she intends to prove them wrong. So, to move and hope for her misery to ask me back would be akin to her admitting that she was wrong--which I do not believe she has ever done in my lifetime. She may have said sorry for certain behaviors, but she has never said that she was wrong about an issue--perhaps because she thinks I'd gloat about it due to my competitive nature.

In any event, I can easily see my kids getting lost in this power struggle. While mothering is never easy, she tends to explode and quit when the going gets rough with the kids. My son especially knows he can hold out against her and get his way in the end and when I take the unyielding approach, which can be extreme because my son is extereme, he goes to her all the time. W doesn't see this dynamic but every single one of her relatives does and has said so to me (my new approach to the kids is to try to be more patient and flexible initially rather than rushing to the hard line, especially with my girls). This problem is likely to get worse with a separation and the kids will up the ante on the manipulation game--and create a disiaster, especially if we have split disciplinary regimes.

In this regard, I think the most important thing we might be able to do as a possible precursor to separation is to go to a co-parenting class.

Anyway, the bottom line--and I may be wrong--is I feel the same way towards her that I do my son (which may be why she defends him so much). At some point, someone has to say, "No" and mean it. You don't get your way with others by acting out and throwing a tantrum. Even if it causes great short-term pain--it seems like the only way to make real progress. For me, progress is taking place through my process of conversion. I feel learning about Christ is so much about truly purging my worst selfish impulses and looking at others in an entirely new and caring way. I have such a long, long way to go, but this personal trauma in my M was the way God has reached me to say--you can't act like you have any longer!

Well nothing will happen soon, so I'll try my best in the meantime. The first thing I'll try is not walking away from my W's next tirade. If I'm really listening, I think she may be trying to make a connection by saying if you truly care about me, you won't walk away and will respect my view--even if you don't like it. I just have a hard time distinguishing this call from an attempt to engage me in a fight. As many of us know, it's a very fin line.

Thanks for sticking with this.

Merrick

[Briget]

Merrick,
Fighting for your marriage is a godly thing to do.However it will not be easy. But I'm sure you know that.
Your wife need a gentle hand so to speak.

When Jesus entered the garden of Gethsemane He knew what he was about to do.He didn't want to do it.And He knew that if God could change it he would. But if he couldn't he would do it any way.So if He can do that you can give your wife the love patience she needs. This is such a small thing in comparrison.I know it is the biggest thing you have ever done. And hopefully it will stay the biggest thing you will ever do.I know I had a point there somewhere.

You know what needs to be done.You may not want to do it.So just pray what Jesus did.
If this cup can be removed from me please do but if not I will do as you will.

Love requires you to give and not receive.It never says in the bible to love so you can be loved back.There are examples through out the bible of giving love without recieveing.And not to many where you are loved back.

I always say love is dirty work. I don't mean unclean as in unholy.I mean dirty as in blood sweat and tears.

Your doing your best and that is all that is required.
Later Friend.
Briget

[Underdog]

Briget,

I just want to tell you that I really enjoy reading your posts to others--you've got a way with words like no other person here. I appreciate the value you bring here

Merrick--I just want to say whatever your beliefs and decisions are, I'm behind you 100%. You have so much on your plate, and I admire your resolve to think outside the box.

Bets

[Briget]

Why thank you Besty,
I have been told that before.I always wanted to do something with it.But I ramble on and never get to the point so it is to frustrating for the reader.

Hi Merrick,
How are you doing this morning?I hope you had a peaceful night.You sure could use one.
Later Friend.
Briget