I have another possibility for what Wolfie is going through: the guilt is killing him. I have had to tell Sam she has to start to forgive herself before we can move forward. Unfortunately she has yet to do so and we are suffering. I just posted on Shiny's thread that Sam and I may need a knock down, drag out fight too.
I am feeling a lot like both Shiny and you, and I am getting angrier.
Shiny shouted the D word in her arguement, may I ask you something? Have you considered it (I am not saying you should!!!! You are doing a great job dbing). The thought has come to my mind and I am unsure what to do with it, especially having two young children. How old are your children?
Anyway, I want to emphasize and empathise that you have a right to feel the way you do and I am proud that you are taking a stronger stand.
Well...letting you know that I am all still alive and kicking.
We've had a fairly serious problem pop up in the past few week. Backtracking: about 4 years ago, I found that Wolfie was having some fairly intimate conversations via e-mail and cell phone with an old (female) friend from back in high school. It was not an EA, to my knowledge, but I threw a big fit about him sharing very detailed information about our R, and that he had been disclosing to her some issues that I should have known about but didn't. We went to counseling briefly at this time due to this discovery. I felt very strongly that the pattern I was seeing with Wolfie would lead to infidelity (geez, it didn't take a fortune-teller to tell me that).
The counselor strongly suggested that Wolfie start to communicate more openly with me and that it was really concerning that he didn't take me seriously when I say that something is a BIG DEAL and maybe even a DEALBREAKER.
One of the things I found out at bomb time was that this correspondance with ff went on continuously, as did others he had started having with other ff's.
OK, fast forward now. We're rebuilding and planning to make our R more technically legal by getting married (as opposed to the common-law like legal R we have now).
For the most part, I see him really trying. I see him wracked with guilt, but this is focused on beating himself up more than on looking at the damage head-on and addressing it. I'm trying to be patient. Some of the things that are really trying my patience are that he has not made an IC or MC appointment since he moved home last Sept. (despite repeatedly saying he was going to) and still has not closed down his PO Box in order to get mail at our house (despite promising to do so last December).
For several weeks, the name of the first ff "pen pal" kept popping up in my mind out of the blue. There is usually a reason for that kind of thing--as I have a highly developed sense of intuition.
So earlier this week, I asked him if he still talked to her. "No, not for a long, long time", he says.
The problem here is....even though he SOUNDED so sincere...I immediately knew he way LYING. I took me right back to the time before the bomb--when I felt every lie as if it were a kick in the stomach--and knew there was much, much more that he was hiding.
I told him that I feel I have a right to know basic things about his relationships with other women. I told him that what I cared about was that he not keep important secrets and that what I needed to know was that he had boundaries in his friendships with other women. I wanted to give him the opportunity to retract the lie and be honest with me.
He didn't.
So I contacted the woman in question. I told her flat out that I had no concerns about their friendship, so long as there was no reason to be keeping secrets.
I told her that I had asked Wolfie if they were still in contact, and he had said NO, but that I knew that wasn't true.
She confirmed that he had lied. She said that she had gotten a call from him early last year when he told her that he had cheated on me when he "told" me and I'd made him leave and he was going to go to MC with me because he wanted to try to make it work.
She said she told him that she was disgusted that he would cheat on me and called him "Peter Pan" and she didn't contact him again for many months after that.
She said that she had called Wolfie two weeks ago (that's what must have set off blips of intuition), and that they had emailed a few times since then.
She seemed to be a person that has a lot of integrity and was very concerned that he had lied to me about the contact.
She felt that maybe he just "doesn't get it" and was never going to really grow up and that maybe I should ask him to move out again because he really needed to face up to his dishonesty and what he was risking. ____________________________________________________
I very gently confronted Wolfie about all of this yesterday. I told him that I don't have a problem with his friendship with women, but I do have a problem with secrets and lies. He said he had lied because he thought I had a problem with her--the email friend.
I told him that gave me zero confidence--that his rationalization for lying was because he thought I might have a "problem" with the truth! WTF kind of excuse is that! I told him that BS told me that I can't trust him and that if he would lie about that--he'd lie about bigger things too.
I am so sad. I am seriously wondering if there is some character flaw he has that makes him so much of a conflict avoider--so dishonest--that trusting him is a fool's proposition.
I have tried not to let this get blown out of proportion. I said these are my expectations: 1. have well-thought out appropriate boundaries with other women. 2. stop lying to me
He says my expectations are "reasonable", and says he understands my concerns. He's acting (somewhat) ashamed about lying and is having difficulty looking me in the eyes.
Please would someone remind me why I am trying to rebuild this R? Am I expecting more than he is capable of? Am I just setting myself up for more pain by trying to trust someone who is not worthy of trust?
I usually read your threads but haven't really posted to you... you seem to have such a good handle on things!
Can I add my 2 cents? The bottom part of your post is exactly what Meredith and I have been discussing, both on and off the board. This is really tough... and while you know that I agree with you--that the onus is on him to speak the truth and allow you to feel whatever you need to feel to process things.
HOWEVER... (you knew this, didn't you?)
Wolfie seems to take your reaction very personally. While this isn't a reflection of you, you can minimize the damage. I'm willing to bet that he's been this way his whole life, so he is going to need YOU to change your reaction so that he quits taking responsibility for how you might or might not feel.
What has worked for both me and Meredith is to actually state that it's okay to speak truthfully, even though it might hurt... and we sometimes have to do this repeatedly in a conversation. We promise them that we will not overreact and munch on them.
We don't promise not to get angry, but we wholly control HOW we are angry with them.
I don't believe for one second that you don't have something good to work with here, Talitsa. Quite the contrary.
Along this miserable road of life, Wolfie has been chastised for being honest. In order to avoid being slugged or eaten, he elects to not be truthful.
Can you set some goals/guidelines for yourself (specific to the triggers that you get) so that he feels safe being honest with you?
Just consider this a speed bump on the road, Talitsa. You CAN teach an old dog new tricks. I think he's being honest with you in regards to your expectations...
Don't give up, girl. You've come so far in this process to quit now.
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
PIB: one of the things I told him in this discussion was that I had never asked him to give me blow-by-blow accounts of his whereabouts at any given time. He had told me that it was a "gift" before, but I have no need for gifts that will be thrown in my face later because he resented the giving of it and then I get told that he feels like he's living in a fishbowl.
I told him that what I need to know is that we have a very clear understanding about boundaries in our other relationships and
That I knew I could trust him not to be secretive and untruthful with me.
I told him THAT is what I need--not a leash!
He *seems* to understand what I am saying and tells me that is reasonable, but
then he starts going on about "why do I even want him anyway, if I think he's so f**ked up"?
so I tell him there is a big difference between who HE IS and his actions. When we lecture the kids for leaving the door open all the time so the dogs get out--that doesn't mean we think they are defective and we don't love them--it means we are asking them to be more responsible about shutting the damn door.
"OH" he says.
I do have to admit though, that this lying thing has me greatly concerned. I said that the problems he *thinks* he is avoiding are small compared to the problems CAUSED by the the lies.
I do hope he gets it. I'm not expecting him to change who he is or his personality--I'm asking him not to repeat behavior that is desctructive to our R.
You would not believe how sweet I was during this whole conversation. I definately tried very hard not to put him on the defensive because he DOES take every thing very personally and then tends to get defensive and attack.
I tried to be very assuring through all of this that I wasn't *kicking butt*, that I loved him and choose him, and that I want the truth, even if it is hard to hear--because that's MUCH better than being lied to when I'm trying so hard to trust again!
I guess I'm just feeling scared right now that I may very well be in love with a boy/man.
Oh, Tal, I believe you were sweet. This is HIS baggage! That's why he needs kid gloves.
Ever meet a skittish cat? One who has absolutely NO reason not to like or trust you? But they back off when you want to stroke them? Just think of Wolfie as a grown up version of that. Someone long before you made him fear this, Talitsa.
Don't take this personally! He's not out to hurt you, woman! He's just a skittish cat who is afraid. That's why I recommended you setting some goals to get him to open up to you.
You'll find a method to keep repeating this mantra to him until he feels comfy enough to start the ball rolling.
I agree with you 100%! I hate hearing anything other than the truth! I especially hate the caveat "but I didn't want to hurt you by being honest". Well, let me decide how to get over my hurt--now I have 2 hurts to work on, you bloody fool!
Whew.. okay, getting off the podium now so I can hand it over to you. I just don't want you to see this as something you are doing or not doing that is causing him to react this way. Just see him as a human with a hangup that is still in his suitcase that he's still carrying until he figures out he can dump it somewhere...
Hugs,
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
