To forgive

[25yearsmlc]

Interesting thread, particularly this time of year, as it is the Jewish New Year and period of Atonement. I was reading up on forgiveness earlier today, and according to Jewish belief (or my understanding of it anyways) is that the transgressor must ASK for forgiveness in order for it to be granted. And, when it is asked for, the injured party is obligated to grant forgiveness.

25years, I bring this up because this version of the concept of forgiveness seems to match the story you posted above. Both parties asked for forgiveness, and it was granted.

And that^^ is ONE version of forgiveness.

I never felt that both parties were required to ask for itj for it to be given. In the "End of the World" story, actually I was never struck by how they "both" asked for forgiveness.
I was struck by how the husband asked for it and did not seem to expect his wife to reciprocate, but she did. She reciprocated in her sorrow for how SHE had hurt HIM...but you bring up an interesting point. I just never saw it that way before.

I did not see a mandatory connection.

But in other posts, you speak of giving forgiveness freely, even when it is not asked for by the transgressor. I do not know enough about Christian beliefs to speak with any authority, but this is a decidedly different model of forgiveness.

I'm not a theologian, but yes, I've given this a lot of thought. I'll say 2 things about the Christian version that I do know, (such as it is).

First, we're told to "forgive 7 x 70 times" which is to say, keep on forgiving b/c we are forgiven by our Father, SO much for our wrongs, that we should not be measuring it. (IF we were to measure how much forgiveness we give out compared to how much we get from God, we'd lose fast). So right there, is an example I could use to go with the idea of freely giving it.

The other part is that Christ died on the cross to show us 2 things: 1) that death is not the end of our existence, since he was resurrected
AND 2) he forgave those who persecuted him. They did not ask for forgiveness -but he asked his Father to forgive them "For they know not what they do".

And the terms you used "freely given" are also terms used often in our theology.

But to be clear, there are some Christian denominations that are more of the belief in "God fearing" dogma than me. As a Catholic, we lean towards the "God of love" from, for instance, the Gospel of Timothy, more than we are of fire and brimstone such as that found in the Old Testament. Does that make sense? ( I mean, am I being clear?)

I'm curious about thoughts on both versions... and also, is "forgiveness" the precise word when the transgressor has not apologized or asked for forgiveness? Or is there another concept which is more accurate?


I think it is the correct word, but I'm open to other terms. The reason I am okay with it is b/c of the example of Christ on the cross saying to forgive those who were killing him, and his persecutors were NOT asking for or believing he could give them forgiveness anyhow. It was beyond their ken. And yet he did it anyway.

I myself was stuck on this for a long time. I felt that h did not deserve my forgiveness, and then even when I "advanced" some in my spiritual journey, my main concern in reality was that if h was not sorry for his actions, he'd repeat them!

And therein lies the real fear-- I think is at the root of most people's resistance.
which is
We feel MORE VULNERABLE WHEN WE FORGIVE...BUT SHOULD WE?

We seem to think we are more at risk of being hurt, by forgiving.

But that isn't true. I can let go of my pain and feelings about past hurts more easily, IF I know I'm NOT MORE likely to get hurt again.

I know that b/c I am not confusing forgiveness with taking an unchanged partner back into a relationship, which requires trust that has not been earned yet.

Perhaps that is the distinction you need. I say You can forgive someone and still not trust them. If that is true, does that help you?




Not sure why I am waxing so philosophically at the moment, or jumping on a thread randomly, but here I am, and I sincerely don't mean to ruffle feathers... just thinking a LOT about forgiveness (both granting it to, and asking for it from others) this time of year. And looking to hear lots of perspectives.