To forgive

[25yearsmlc]

2 more 'things"...

First, with very few exceptions, every long term happy marriage I know of, has required chunks of forgiveness somewhere along the way. There is simply no way to stay together happily, and also keep a record of wrongs.

Second, here is a re-cap of a story I heard at a workshop I attended years ago.

(( I've been to several personal growth workshops along the way. By far, this one was the best. A lot of DBers have also gone and they each found it profoundly life changing, as I did. It's called "Essential Experience" ("EE" for short) and it is done in Philadelphia.
Because it's "experiential" and not in a lecture format, you can't "edit" or "rehearse" your responses. That makes for a lot of self discovery. Truly, a deeply worthwhile experience.

Check their website out. I can't say enough about it. (Well, I guess I can say "GO to EE! And now, I'll move on"...)

Anyway, here's the parable.

When The World Was Going to End


One day at noon, the whole world heard a loud voice say “In 7 days, the end of the world will be upon you”. At first, people marveled at the feat of someone being able to talk to the whole world in language of every person. What a great prank! Some folks found the words disturbing however.

The next day at noon, the world heard the words again, “In 6 days the end of the world will be upon you.” This bothered more people b/c they no longer felt it was a prank, but an actual warning. But from whom? What did it mean?

The next day at noon again, the whole world heard the words “In 5 days the end of the world will be upon you.” Now, people were upset. Some began to travel out of the city and into the countryside. Some began to prepare for a disaster or Armageddon. But It seemed no matter where they went, or how remote the area, the message had gotten thru, it had been heard.

Also, there began to be colors & marks on people’s faces; the colors & marks of their sin.

For instance, the green of envy was on many faces, or the word “greed" was like a tattoo across their cheek. The letter “A” for adultery was on their foreheads.

Politicians & many in the clergy began wearing bags or masks over their heads, and celebrities went on “retreats” where no one could see their faces. People were ashamed and hid.

The next day when the voice said, "in 3 days the end of the world will be upon you”, many people were getting angry and others became very upset.

They flocked to their churches and prayed. The rich began giving away their money.

Still the stains remained, and the next day the voice again declared, “in 2 days the end of the world will be upon you”.

Now people truly despaired. It seemed nothing they did could stop the end of the world from coming. Leaders met in conferences to decide on a strategy, (their faces hidden of course).

There were some who began to accept that the end was coming. They got their things in order, or wrote letters to loved ones.

In one home a husband stood next to his wife and they both looked out the window. The husband had the letter “A” on his forehead, and his wife had the signs of jealousy and envy plainly visible on her face and arms.

The husband said to his wife, “I want you to know that those other women never meant a thing to me & I'm so sorry I hurt you. You’re the only woman I ever really loved.
Do you think you could find it in your heart to someday forgive me?

The wife turned to him and said “Yes I do forgive you. And I want you to know I'm sorry for all my resentments & the times I rejected you? Do you think you could ever forgive me?"

The husband said “oh yes wife, I forgive you.” The two embraced as they had not embraced in many years.

As they looked into each others eyes, suddenly, the colors on the wife's face faded away in a flash, and the letter “A” of adultery dropped from the husbands' forehead.

The couple realized what was happening and began to yell out the window about what had just happened, and word began to spread.

Other couples began to forgive each other. Brothers & sisters who had been estranged, began reaching out to each other and embracing. Parents and their children reunited as did many couples, and old feuds faded.

World leaders began to sign treaties they had rejected before.

People were making up & reconciling all across the planet, and the colors and marks began to fade even faster…

People rejoiced as all across the planet, forgiveness had spread.

Along with forgiveness, came the freedom to love & be loved.
And the world was saved.

[Matt165]

GB,
Well, even my w seems at times to know that, even though she is on HER path to happiness, that it also damaged others around her. She saw how her fathers search for his happiness hurt her, her mom, her brother so she should be aware that choices that she makes on that path CAN and do hurt other people. It seems to me that in order to forgive, the actions that hurt need to have stopped, be in the past or you will spend every day in forgiveness "mode". I guess that isn't a "bad" thing.

I will say this...there have been times when I have come to terms with certain things that my W had done. I saw it as her acting out in pain and thought that there was no use holding it against her. Of course, then something new would happen and I would feel "There really is no justification for someone to do that" and that was that.

I do have a question, if forgiveness isn't forgetting or not holding the other person "accountable" for their actions, what is it. is it understanding that this person hurt you and doesn't care but just thinking "That is on them. I won't allow that to hurt me.". That sounds to me less forgiveness than "coming to terms". You can not hold something over their head but still have not forgiven them, right? I know I have forgiven small things in the past like when someone said something "bad" about me or was intentionally cruel. In those cases I would say "maybe they were having a bad day" or "I'm sure that they didn't mean that". But in those cases I was able to see a "reason" and the actions didn't have the profound effects that what our S's have done, are doing.

Is "accepting" or "coming to terms" with someones actions the same as forgiveness?

[Matt165]

Wow, loved the end of the world story!
One thing, again, in forgiveness, it took both the H and W to say, "I am sorry, and I forgive you". I'm still hung up on the forgiveness without the other person either being remorseful (or even seeing the "wrong" in their actions) or excepting the apology and showing forgiveness in return. I know when my w started spewing, I did say "I'm so very sorry for anything I have done over the years to hurt you. I really didn't know or try and hurt you." and was totally rejected by her. All I got was "You should have known" even things that she totally misread on my part. How do you get past that. I know I'm missing something really important here. I'm just not sure what that is....

[claire7]

Interesting thread, particularly this time of year, as it is the Jewish New Year and period of Atonement. I was reading up on forgiveness earlier today, and according to Jewish belief (or my understanding of it anyways) is that the transgressor must ASK for forgiveness in order for it to be granted. And, when it is asked for, the injured party is obligated to grant forgiveness.

25years, I bring this up because this version of the concept of forgiveness seems to match the story you posted above. Both parties asked for forgiveness, and it was granted.

But in other posts, you speak of giving forgiveness freely, even when it is not asked for by the transgressor. I do not know enough about Christian beliefs to speak with any authority, but this is a decidedly different model of forgiveness. I'm curious about thoughts on both versions... and also, is "forgiveness" the precise word when the transgressor has not apologized or asked for forgiveness? Or is there another concept which is more accurate?

Not sure why I am waxing so philosophically at the moment, or jumping on a thread randomly, but here I am, and I sincerely don't mean to ruffle feathers... just thinking a LOT about forgiveness (both granting it to, and asking for it from others) this time of year. And looking to hear lots of perspectives.

[Lifes Twists]

Hi claire,

You are not ruffling any feathers. I started this thread as a discussion open to everyone. It does not represent my personal problem, that is reserved for another thread. The reason I started it is I see people imploring others to forgive a lot yet it may have very different meaning to different people.I don't even know if I have a personal idea yet of what it means to forgive. So I thought lets discuss it and maybe we can all grow from the discussion. You have already shown that different religions can have a different meaning for forgiveness. I look forward to this discussion progressing along.

[25yearsmlc]

Wow, loved the end of the world story!
One thing, again, in forgiveness, it took both the H and W to say, "I am sorry, and I forgive you". I'm still hung up on the forgiveness without the other person either being remorseful

I understand but there^^, you are still thinking it's about THEM, and it's not. It's about doing something for YOU, so you are not consumed by the pain of their behavior.

You let go of it. They and their choices are NOT factors in this equation. When you really get this, it'll make sense.

Also, Don't confuse forgiveness with reconciliation, which requires trust and that takes more time. Forgiving does not mean you now trust them, or that you are ready to trust) and don't confuse forgiveness with trust or condonation. '
They are not the same

(or even seeing the "wrong" in their actions) or excepting the apology and showing forgiveness in return.

No reciprocity is needed to forgive. (Lose the score card). In the "End of the World" story you see forgiveness without a return "expectation" of the same, right? No reciprocity is needed. And no apology is needed - to let go of the pain and anger YOU are carrying around.
Make sense?

know when my w started spewing, I did say "I'm so very sorry for anything I have done over the years to hurt you. I really didn't know or try and hurt you." and was totally rejected by her. All I got was "You should have known" even things that she totally misread on my part. How do you get past that.


Why must you get past that? YOU don't have to get past that. She does and you don't control that.

YOU just have to get past the pain YOU are carrying around from her. IT's not an "even the score" event to forgive and let go of past grievances. It's just freedom for your soul. It's "your way out of hell".

I don't know another way to say it but when I do, I'll post it here. It's just NOT about what they think or say or are doing. They are not even relevant to this...I have forgiven people I have not seen in years. They don't even know I forgave them and that does not matter. It's for ME, not them...

I know I'm missing something really important here. I'm just not sure what that is....

Hopefully in time it'll come to you but do try.

Remember the phrase "holding onto anger to punish someone else-- is like lighting yourself on fire--

to get smoke in their eyes."

WE are the ones hurt by the pain WE carry. WE benefit by letting go of it. They are not even in the equation so their actions are not relevant, their apology or lack thereof is not a factor. THEY don't matter in this...it's all about you and going forward in your life without as much baggage and pain.

Forgiving them means letting go of the past, and the pain it brings about in you. It does not mean you trust them not to do it again, or that you are ok with them; it does not mean you are reconciling.

But to reconcile you need to forgive and to drop it AND you'd also need some behavioral changes on their end to make you feel safe. But that's a different matter. Does that help?

[MrBond]

25yearsmlc is spot on.

Forgiveness is something that you give freely and not dependent on the other person.

[25yearsmlc]

Interesting thread, particularly this time of year, as it is the Jewish New Year and period of Atonement. I was reading up on forgiveness earlier today, and according to Jewish belief (or my understanding of it anyways) is that the transgressor must ASK for forgiveness in order for it to be granted. And, when it is asked for, the injured party is obligated to grant forgiveness.

25years, I bring this up because this version of the concept of forgiveness seems to match the story you posted above. Both parties asked for forgiveness, and it was granted.

And that^^ is ONE version of forgiveness.

I never felt that both parties were required to ask for itj for it to be given. In the "End of the World" story, actually I was never struck by how they "both" asked for forgiveness.
I was struck by how the husband asked for it and did not seem to expect his wife to reciprocate, but she did. She reciprocated in her sorrow for how SHE had hurt HIM...but you bring up an interesting point. I just never saw it that way before.

I did not see a mandatory connection.

But in other posts, you speak of giving forgiveness freely, even when it is not asked for by the transgressor. I do not know enough about Christian beliefs to speak with any authority, but this is a decidedly different model of forgiveness.

I'm not a theologian, but yes, I've given this a lot of thought. I'll say 2 things about the Christian version that I do know, (such as it is).

First, we're told to "forgive 7 x 70 times" which is to say, keep on forgiving b/c we are forgiven by our Father, SO much for our wrongs, that we should not be measuring it. (IF we were to measure how much forgiveness we give out compared to how much we get from God, we'd lose fast). So right there, is an example I could use to go with the idea of freely giving it.

The other part is that Christ died on the cross to show us 2 things: 1) that death is not the end of our existence, since he was resurrected
AND 2) he forgave those who persecuted him. They did not ask for forgiveness -but he asked his Father to forgive them "For they know not what they do".

And the terms you used "freely given" are also terms used often in our theology.

But to be clear, there are some Christian denominations that are more of the belief in "God fearing" dogma than me. As a Catholic, we lean towards the "God of love" from, for instance, the Gospel of Timothy, more than we are of fire and brimstone such as that found in the Old Testament. Does that make sense? ( I mean, am I being clear?)

I'm curious about thoughts on both versions... and also, is "forgiveness" the precise word when the transgressor has not apologized or asked for forgiveness? Or is there another concept which is more accurate?


I think it is the correct word, but I'm open to other terms. The reason I am okay with it is b/c of the example of Christ on the cross saying to forgive those who were killing him, and his persecutors were NOT asking for or believing he could give them forgiveness anyhow. It was beyond their ken. And yet he did it anyway.

I myself was stuck on this for a long time. I felt that h did not deserve my forgiveness, and then even when I "advanced" some in my spiritual journey, my main concern in reality was that if h was not sorry for his actions, he'd repeat them!

And therein lies the real fear-- I think is at the root of most people's resistance.
which is
We feel MORE VULNERABLE WHEN WE FORGIVE...BUT SHOULD WE?

We seem to think we are more at risk of being hurt, by forgiving.

But that isn't true. I can let go of my pain and feelings about past hurts more easily, IF I know I'm NOT MORE likely to get hurt again.

I know that b/c I am not confusing forgiveness with taking an unchanged partner back into a relationship, which requires trust that has not been earned yet.

Perhaps that is the distinction you need. I say You can forgive someone and still not trust them. If that is true, does that help you?




Not sure why I am waxing so philosophically at the moment, or jumping on a thread randomly, but here I am, and I sincerely don't mean to ruffle feathers... just thinking a LOT about forgiveness (both granting it to, and asking for it from others) this time of year. And looking to hear lots of perspectives.

[25yearsmlc]

I think this is a good important topic.

I also think the PURPOSE of the "forgiveness" or whatever one wants to call it, may matter.

IF you are reconciling and trying to let go and get past a betrayal, that's very different than just trying to move forward in your life with the idea you may never see the other person again.

Then, perhaps, forgiveness is also partly a question of getting closure, and being healthy.

The freedom I mention often, is the freedom of putting your "betrayal & pain baggage" down, and Not picking it up again..

With no more worrying. Just trusting the universe (God) and yourself that you will be alright "From this day forward".

And that last line above (from this day forward) comes from a lot of wedding vows. I think a genius wrote them. It reminds me to Let Go of the Past or you won't be able to reconcile. Be in the moment. Be fully present IN the present.

All of that seems to me, to be a part of why forgiveness is so healthy.

Does that make sense?