Keeping it real

[25yearsmlc]

(Long post, that kind of week) 25, thank you for following this thread. It's nice to get feedback but with you I feel like you're really rooting me on.

You're right about how I handled myself in the M. I've been peeling back that onion. My M was so bad in so many ways. Neither my W nor I had a high self worth and we both counted on the other to make us happy. It didn't work. For her, she has issues being herself. She is a pleaser and was all about being a good mom, getting my approval, or the approval of the world. To me it felt like she had no personality.

But you chose her. Like a mirror? And didn't you say you were a perfectionist? So she could never measure up, but maybe that led you to think she'd never leave you...

I've lost track of how many men have told me they "married down" (my words, not theirs. They'd say they "rescued her" or "found her in the gutter", "saved her from a horrid family" etc) and those ungrateful women left them!

My belief is that no one wants to be told or reminded or somehow informed, that they were the lesser in the marriage and ought to be grateful....and I have seen many of those women LEAVE b/c they tire of that theme in their lives.

(Even if it were true, at some point it has to be dropped b/c they deserve credit for making their own lives better, not always forever giving the person they married the credit. How depressing.)



It seemed like she was a shell. We didn't have great conversation, our 'dates' were dinner and a movie and boring sex. We loved each other and there was passion at times, but not much intimacy.

"was passion at first, but not much intimacy" means what? How disclosing were you with your dreams and fears about life? Disclosure builds intimacy.

I sense a lot of blame here, even though you seem to want to even things out, what I mostly here is you blaming her for how you treated her. What say you?

I grew very restless. I felt like I was in a shell of a marriage. I started doing more and more on my own to entertain myself. Winning pool tournaments, killing it at work.

so you ignored her more? There was even LESS intimacy? I mean, let's TRY and see things from HER point of view, okay? I think you already know how you felt. Empathizing with her will help you a lot more than spinning negatively about her.


In turn she devoted herself to the kids and became very controlling with them, getting her needs met by their dependence, and shutting me out from the family as she needed to be the one that was needed for everything (the 'I don't deserve love so ill settle for being needed and get to be the noble martyr). I

This^^ is one heck of a way to blame her - for you ignoring your family --which you just admitted doing the paragraph before. I'm a lawyer and I know that work gives us accolades and bonuses and pats on the back and medals and certificates of appreciation and compliments and positive feedback, WAY more than caring for kids can (though not so much in the long run)...

So of course you chose the way you could feel most admired the fastest. That was a need of yours. But you cannot blame HER for your choices...really.

began to feel very neglected and resented that she didn't make me as much of a priority as she made the kids. Remember, 3 kids and a miscarriage in 10 years meant she was pregnant/nursing much o the time.


Uh, yeah I get it. So, who do you think was most affected by Her pregnancies and the miscarriage and child birth, you or her?

I mean to read it here, it's as if YOU went thru a lot that she didn't, but of course that's not true.

Zeus, you are missing out on your own role and greatly magnifying hers (blaming really) and Not owning your stuff. That does not help you OR the cause. Frankly I think the more you justify yourself, the less hope there is of meaningful permanent change in YOU.

We never dated as she was pregnant right away

How'd "she" get pregnant? Oh, you were "expecting" early in the R or early in the marriage or what? Surely you see that you played a role in this- but honest to God I read men saying their "wives got pregnant" as if they were somewhere else when it happened...there IS some blame going on here...and I don't think it's fair.


Also, why does it matter? Explain what difference it made. That you don't know how to have fun together?

Okay...that is a shared responsibility and it IS something you can learn, isn't it?


so we never for to take trips or have fun together. And with our disconnect even if we had the time it wouldn't have been that fulfilling for either of us.


negative mind reading and stinking thinking is what I call this^^^...


I never understood what she needed. Maybe she was so passive she never td me, maybe it seemed so alien to me I never understood, maybe she was afraid of me, maybe she didn't know herself.

How, if at all, did you try to get to know her? And you said elsewhere that she was afraid of you and that she had understandable reasons for that. Do you recall this?


But I felt alone in my marriage, and somehow I concluded that if I was going to remain faithful and committed to this person who I felt stuck with, she should do everything she could to make it bearable. In my mind that became sexually among other things.

Well, in retrospect do you see how it made HER feel? And do you truly believe her needs were being met? How can you if you don't know what her needs are? You do know she wanted to feel safe with you but she did not. She wanted to feel valued by you but you made it clear that only sex would give her value in your eyes and that makes most women (if not all) feel pretty trampy and valueless.

So, one could argue that if you were to hire a maid and a prostitute, you'd be "happily married".

I say peeling back the onion because my DB coach says that my sexual demands were an attempt to fulfill other real needs that weren't being met, such as feeling desirable, important, and admired. But I also know that it was the lack of love I had for myself that I was trying to compensate for by having her 'prove' her love to me.

Now, tonight I am trying to pick up my broken pieces. It's hard to love myself when I haven't for years. I dot know if I do or not. I ran from emotions for 22 years and just played pool.


Then here^^ we can see that your lack of intimacy in the marriage was surely not due to HER inability to feel or express emotions - any more than your inability to. Correct?

This^^ seems like a lot of honesty here, but it conflicts with some of your earlier blaming comments. Just reflect on that when you can...

How much of my feeling bad is normal for being human? How much is normal for my situation? And how much is due to my need for self acceptance? For an emotional infant it's a lot to figure out.

You're intelligent enough to avail yourself of the resources around to figure it out. And if you are brave enough, and persistent enough, the growth will come.

So sexually I believe that I can do two things. First, learn to meet my own needs that I can meet such as self love and approval, then make sure I have the tools to have a better R next time around as far as meeting basic and reasonable R needs.

Making sure you are pleasing your partner will go a long way to feeling admired and appreciated, sexually. But that does not mean it should be the sole avenue for it. How can a woman show her h that she loves him if she cannot have sex with him for some amount of time? I'm asking you NOT b/c I don't know how but b/c YOU need to know how she can do that or she'll feel lousy about herself. There has to be more than one way to express love to you. What else are your love languages?

(Have you read The Five Love Languages" by Chapman? It's worth reading and though it may seem shallow at first, it amazes me how infrequently we speak in our lover's language. Like we can KNOW they love words of affirmation but then scratch our heads about giving a compliment to our spouse! It's not rocket science, but it IS healthy and leads to a lot more happiness in our marriages to do this).

I think Not making it all about your needs, will help YOU meet them, actually. Paradoxical, isn't it?



Beyond that I still have to figure this out. That's why I'm going to the 'exploring healthy sexual boundaries' meeting. I feel the need to be loved by a woman and that is how I have always felt loved, so the notion that a woman I'm with doesn't have to be sexual if she doesn't choose to is confusing to me.

Then you need to get some clarity on this^^. What about when you cannot have sex? As I understand it, not all men can use Viagra or the other stuff, forever. So there will come a time when you cannot make love. What will YOU do to feel loved then? What should SHE do?

Even at a biological level, seems to me that YOU need to come up with another way to show and express and receive love.


I mean, it seems so obvious when I type it, like no one should be forced to have sex against their will.

because it's rape. Plain and simple. Do you see that? How does that term make you feel? I'm being sincere.


But I know I have to grow more and I'm discouraged that it comes so hard.

It feels so unfair. Like I have this need only my W can meet and it is so power it pretty much drives all I do.

That must be very terrifying. Have you considered going to Sex Addict's meeting? I mean if "pretty much" all you do is driven by the desire for sex, that isn't healthy. Do you agree or not?

I felt like she never understood how important it was to me. All I did in my R was try to love her and provide for her so I'd meet her approval and hope she would love me the way I needed in return.

Meaning, you did what you did so she'd have sex with you? Honestly -- if you read what else you've written here, that's how it's coming off to me (and maybe to her).

That isn't love, that's manipulation. You ONLY did those things so she'd do in bed what you wanted...

Now I see that's not love, that's like buying dinner for a woman and expecting to go home with her on a grander scale.

Thank you for seeing this^^...


But my mind tells me 'but then how do I get what I want?!?'


Loving her in HER love language would be a start. You don't know her needs, so I think it's safe to say she has not had her needs met for a long LONG time if ever.
Learn them.

And if she truly cannot be who you want in bed AND IF your needs are reasonable, and IF sex is that important to you and you become convinced that there are plenty of women who will feel the way you want them to feel, and that you are not being "unusual" in your wants and requirements,
then perhaps your marriage is not worth saving. But I think you have a whole lot of work to do on YOU, before you can figure that out.

Make no mistake, I don just want sex, I'd love a woman I can explore the world with, partner on life with, read poems together, text throughout the day, do nice things for, etc.

I believe this is the first time you've said that as far as I recall.

It almost does Not jive with your other comments.

But I hope it's true. OTOH, most people dream of this in their marriage and I bet SHE wants the same thing. Who wouldn't?


but since you asked about the issue ill agree I need more help and that I caused some rifts that may be insurmountable.

Most (not all, but most) issues are NOT insurmountable, but I don't know your wife OR what you put her thru in this dimension of your marriage.

I know about the "calendar event" and how it must have made her feel (as in, NOT "in the mood" for sure)....

So again, layer one is health sexual boundaries which I'm working on. Layer two is a better R in which baser needs are met.

"Baser" or "basic" needs? Meaning what?


And level three is getting better on my own so I'm not counting on an R to make me feel better.

Good insight^^

I know GAL is part of that and am taking small step (spending more time with friends, trying this meeting) but will give thought to some more. Trying to picture being content on my own without a woman that loves me and expresses that to me physically is harder. I'm reading, journaling, praying, meditating, starting these meetings, and talking about it with my IC and DB coach as well as my support network.

I want to change and just can't see the road in front of me and am horrified with the pain I've inflicted and the consequences it's caused to me and my entire family. Yes, my W could've written that post. Life has been no picnic for me either. I've had enough and am ready to do whatever I can.

It's okay to admit she had a lot of reasons for being unhappy without you immediately competing by saying "life was no picnic for me either". Lose the scorecard. They do not belong inside a marriage. But know that I had my own scorecard and it was a long one. Took me awhile to throw it away and not go back to read it again (figuratively speaking). But it really does help. I think that is why the words "from this day forward" are so brilliant to have in our marriage vows.

We MUST let go of the past or we'll never be happy together. I honestly believe that a long term marriage that is happy, REQUIRES chunks of forgiveness....( or as Samuel Jackson said "a lot of amnesia".)


So thank you for caring and ill keep you posted on what I learn in these regards.

One big suggestion is for you to Check out the "Essential Experience" workshop in Philadelphia (not anything else with a similar name, just the one there in Philly).

("EE" is the acronym you'll see a lot of AND many DBers have gone to EE and all of them got a lot out of it).

I apologize if I've already posted about it and I don't want to sound like a salesman here. Nor am I getting a commission! But I found it literally life changing, and profoundly deep. Even though I've had some great therapists, weekly meetings can be "fragmented" b/c when you make a breakthrough you have to go back to work or pick up the kids and the next week, start all over and hope you can find your way back to that insight...but a long weekend of a good workshop (not all workshops are good, for sure) CAN be very helpful.

They have a decent website and you can call if you have specific questions.

it's "efficient" to me (and my h) b/c you have the continuity to work on an issue to it's solution, in a very safe environment, and to leave with an action plan AND to have follow up support available.

For us it was like 2-3 years of therapy in one long weekend. Unlike some workshops that have a lot of lectures in them, it has "experiential" exercises that are designed to elicit your real emotions about a topic. So you cannot "edit or rehearse" your answers, which I really benefitted from b/c as a L, I often do edit my real answers. This was a powerful self discovery tool.

In fact it changed me so much that my h did it as well a few months later. He's not the "workshop type of guy" - but he went on his own. He told me before hand that he saw changes in me "the moment" [I] came off the plane"....and he wanted in on that.

Good luck Zues...(all this time I thought your screen name was Zeus like the god, but it's not...okay someday you will have to explain it if you can do so discreetly)

Hang in there.

[25yearsmlc]

PS

Sorry for not asking this earlier, but how are your kids doing with all this?

[Zues126]

25, you're right. I haven't been as accountable as I thought. Making excuses, blaming, spinning, it's a great if what I want is sympathy. But if I want to be a good husband with a shot to make this or any R work it does nothing for me. So, specifically, my part of the demise of the M is as I can best see now:

-viewed my W as inferior and felt that I 'married down' as a favor, then allowed that to color my attitude and behavior to her over the years
-neglected her needs by not making it more of a priority to understand them, dismissing their importance, and worst of all deliberately denying them in an attempt to control and manipulate her behavior.
-pressured her to do things sexually she wasn't comfortable with or when she didn't want to participate.
-neglected my children and forced her to carry that responsibility on her own.
-acted angry in ways that made her feel fearful

Her love languages are acts of service and gifts, although all 5 were valuable to her to a degree. My 180s and what I'm currently doing:

-remaining calm and laid back, less intense (meditating)
-validating her and listenin intently to the needs she is communicating
-being an involved and loving dad, making sure she has time on her own and a partner to raise the children with regardless of status.
-quitting porn and doing additional work (books/therapy work) to try to develop healthier outlooks and boundaries.
-giving gifts/doing acts of service for the CHILDREN.

This is a little rough, didn't get into the specifics in how I've executed all of that. But the point is well taken. Stay in my sandbox, make no excuses and just focus on my problems and my solutions, take growing steps, and find ways with my interactions with her to allow her to see them.

I thought I was doing that but there is no question that when my perspective turns to that of a victim it will stut my growth and impact my behavior. Already today I have felt more compassionate towards her, and was better as to handle responding to her email (about lawyers/D).

Kids are doing well. My S10 told me its difficult for him and that's a big step, he usually hides this from me because he's sensitive to what I think of him given the unstable nature of our relationship up until now. But we're bondin more and more, it's been good. And we're getting him set up with a school councelor so hopefully he can get additional support. D's 3 and 7 don't seem to be too bothered. STBX has been supportive of my parenting and so far we've been very amicable to each other and with he children.

I am very interested in the E E and have read your reviews before. I may be able to make that happen. I told my dad I felt like I needed to get more help and even mentioned this to him. I'll see if I can work it out.

Thanks for the 2x4 25. This was a good opportunity to regroup and refocus. Oh- ps, I'm back at work today and this along with staying in my sandbox has helped me feel much more secure. Amazing how focusing on myself and being appreciative can go along way!

[Zues126]

Big break through. I referenced it on a disappearing post but I'm so excited I have to share.

I think I found a level of detachment here. Here's how it happened: I did what's called the 'GOODBYE/HELLO' exercise. Basically you write a goodbye letter to everything you're losing. You reference that when you're down to validate your pain and help process your loss. But then you write a hello letter to everything you're gaining. The new life you're excited about.

What I'm losing/gaining isn't the major breakthrough, but I'll mention it. I'm losing my W, my kids growing up with both parents together, the chance to be married forever to the mother of my children, a lot of faith in love and commitment, my house, part of my income, and a chapter of my life that meant a lot. What I gain is the chance to get my own place and make it mine, to have undivided time with my children, to raise them how I want when they're with me, to have increased income (compared to being sole provider) and a lot of free time to pursue my passions, the chance to grow and find joy on my own, and the chance to meet a woman that has the character and commitment to be a wonderful partner for years to come.

So here's the point. I was nearly a WAH in 2011, went through a MLC and was very frustrated with the M. I didn't walk, although I wasn't a very good H all the time either. But the point is that my coping mechanism was to grit my teeth and tell myself "you can't leave this marriage, marriage is important and real, other women/free time/passions aren't whats important, the marriage will mean more in the long run", etc. I was so terrified I'd screw up by leaving and regretting my decision I was terrified to even LOOK at the other grass in fear it would lure me away.

Well, I still believe what I always said. I DO believe in M, and this isn't the road I wouldn't chosen. However SHE chose this road. And SHE isn't changing her mind anytime soon. So at this point I have given myself complete permission to get excited about my new life.

This doesn't mean I'm not going to keep DBing (or trying to), but I am honestly doing that for ME. I don't believe we will recover from here, and with the exceptions of some natural pain some times I'm pretty ok with that. No, I'm doing this so I am better on my own, in my next R, and so I can look back and know I handled this according to my core beliefs. That is all.

So I'd encourage anyone that needs help detaching to do the goodbye/hello letters, and to give yourself permission to let go and move on.

[MrBond]

"So I'd encourage anyone that needs help detaching to do the goodbye/hello letters, and to give yourself permission to let go and move on."

That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard on the boards in a long time. What you're doing IS NOT detaching. It's still running away from a problem. Just like when you were in MLC.

Detachment is removing your emotions from your situation so that no matter what you spouse does, it doesn't affect you. It's not a take it or leave it scenario.

It shows you don't understand what DBing is. It's not all a "ploy" or plan to trick your W back. It's a life change. When you say that you are going to "try" to DB, shows that you don't get it.

You've been at this for just under 4 months. It takes longer than that to get things in order. My W took 3 years before the fog shifted even a little.

But if you don't have the patience, then file the paperwork and leave. Simple as that. But don't put it under the guise of detachment because that's not what it's all about.

[Zues126]

I admit that I fail to understand what I'm missing yet rarely do I see your posts miss he mark so my explanation below is not strictly defending my posting ion as I know I'm the noob here, but just to try to figure out the differences between what your talking about and what I am saying. I'll reread your post again later and see if I pick anything else up I missed the first time.

I'm trying to grow in the areas I failed as a husband. I said try because I know I have a long road ahead. I just am not doing this for STBX, I'm doing it for me. If my W feels differently someday I can reevaluate, but I'm no going to tie my happiness with my life to someone I can't control. I am accepting what is happening and walking the road in manner that is consistent with my beliefs.

My DB coach thought it was great and told me she was going to share the hello/goodbye letters wih others she worked with. She told me I was on the right track because it allowed me to forget about the M and allow me and my STBX to forge a respectful partnership to Coparent the kids. She said that's a good goal no matter what and the first step towards reconsciliation anyway, and that the more I had let to the more effectively I'd be able to handle that road. My IC also agreed while I have personal goals I have to keep striving for this made sense.

My understanding of DBing is that it's about changing your behavior and keeping track of what works. I have behavior I need to change, and am continuing to do this in new ways. Part of that behavior I am changing is being emotionally attached to my STBX's every move which in turn leads me to be a doormat or not my best self. Yes, my wife is filing and I will cooperate. I'm not burning bridges, and I even admit his isnt what I want, but if the best thing I can do is work on me and be a good Coparent than that's what I've been doing. And I'm going to enjoy my life because its a good one. Maybe the phrase 'move on' wasnt the best. I meant emotionally. I have the patience to work on myself and not make irreversible decisions for a year from the signed d, well see where things are at the. But I don't have the patience to make that year agonizing emotionally for myself.

[Zues126]

Brutal. I thought the D would be the hard part. My night to visit with kids, STBX comes home drunk and felt like talking. I didn't really want to but she started talking about not doing so well, and at this point when she says that I get concerned about her safety.

She went on about her normal talking points, how she was trapped, dependent on me, needs the divorce done, was afraid she would lose the kids and that if she did she really would kill herself and make sure the job got done, told me that she was lonely because she stopped talking to OM (again), and many more points about how I destroyed her in the M.

I asked her if she was thinking about hurting herself. She said no. I told her to let me know if that ever changed. The. I validated a few things and headed out.

I have my children all weekend so I know they'll be safe with me. I talk to DB coach Monday. What a tough spot. On the one hand if I get too protective of the children And take bold action I might end up with a dead ex-wife or a hostile custody battle. But if I'm too passive I could put their emotional well being at risk. This is more than I bargained for. I just wanted to fight for my M and my own healing, this is insanity. And I have to constantly reevaluate each week to make sure I'm doing this right based on how I feel she's doing.

Anyway, I'll get professional guidance, execute, and know that whatever comes it isn't from me being complacent. I'll do my best and live with the consequences.

[25yearsmlc]

YOU WROTE:


Anyway, I'll get professional guidance, execute, and know that whatever comes it isn't from me being complacent. I'll do my best and live with the consequences.




When you evaluate whether you have done your TRUE BEST, be as honest and as brave as you possibly can be.

Be damn honest and damn brave.

Learn from your mistakes; own them (which necessitates NOT repeating them), and improve as a man.

Be loving and strong. Become a man of honor and dignity, who keeps his word. Teach your children to see the positives in others, including & especially in their family members.
Become a man who shows love and kindness whenever he can, a man who laughs hard and often, who values learning and isn't too humble to say "I don't know".

Once you believe you have become the best Zues you can become, then turn your marriage over to God, and go forward in your life, & walk in peace.

You will have literally done all you can. No one can ask for more.

[MrBond]

"I admit that I fail to understand what I'm missing yet rarely do I see your posts miss he mark"

No I didn't miss the mark. Your second explanation of what you meant is much better than what you "encouraged" others to do in your first post. Language and the way you say things are important in any relationship. Just because you didn't explain your belief a certain way isn't the reader's fault in understanding. It's yours.

Follow 25yearsmlc's advice.

[Zues126]

Thank you 25, Bond. Question tonight is about the line between rescuing and withdrawing.

Let me explain. My DB coach told me that the codependent cycle feels like abuse to the one being 'rescued'. A rescuer swoops in to feel important, then grows impatient of the person they're rescuing, then detached, and finally criticizes and judges. The person that was rescued then feels abandoned and attacked. Not a good set up. So DB coach told me NOT to do any rescuing when my STBX starts acting needy or helpless. But she also told me that ignoring the behavior could be insensitive and rejecting. DB coach told me 'I don't think she's done with you yet' based on how emotional she continues to be in her communication. I'm trying to grow MYSELF by finding a healthier way to reply to these things.

Tonight I got an email in which she made a few comments I'm trying to figure out how to respond to:

-in case you care OM went off to the other girl and said some things I will end communication over. Not that it matters but it is what it
-So I'm the one getting screwed with money and no job and still living in a house as a housewife which I am not anymore. Great...and my lovely check engine light came on.

I feel trapped. As for OM leaving her, if I say I don't care I'm insensitive, if I say I do I'm clingy and she just reassures herself that I'm still her plan B. how I really feel is that I don't care about OM at this point, I'm taking care of myself and hope she does the same for herself. Of course I hope she isn't suffering but I'm trying to steer clear right now and play in my sandbox. Any tips on this one?

As for money, she has done nothing but criticize and complain about finances. Meanwhile I am still depositing 100% of my income in our joint account and staying with a family friend for next to nothing so as to make sure everything is smooth until the D is signed. I know she is stressed about money, but I literally don't have more to give and am already on the doormat side. Which I don't mind as it is short term and worth it to me to know I didn't use finances as a control tactic. Point is I can understand she hates being dependent on me right now but don't know that I can do anything about it.

My understanding is that the middle ground is to validate, then ask for her ideas on how she's thinking we could move forward. This way she is heard, has a voice in the outcome, but I'm not chasing or rescuing. Is this on the right track?

I wish it was as easy as 'be a good person' but I'm learning I was really meeting my own needs for importance when I thought I was being loving. As I get better on my own I'm trying to learn better boundaries and ways to show caring and concern without going into these rescue roles.

Any thoughts? Ps, I AM doing better emotionally day by day, these things aren't rocking my world, but I want to go past being ok on my own to being ok while interacting with others. That's still trickier for me. Thank you all for the time and help.