In regards to cat's thoughts about how the MLCer/WAS "feels' and thinks....I'm certain that in many cases that is true. I know I can't imagine ANYONE in crisis or not, not feeling some kind of remorse or hurt or even concern for the person they have spent most of their lives M to. At the same time, in my case and in many others on the board, it seems the darker and more "detached" I/they become, the worse my W seems to get. As I go darker and in my case I couldn't get much darker at all (I haven't initiated a single interaction unless it was about the kids in at least 6-8 weeks. I do respond to her when she texts or calls but that happens almost never) the more withdrawn and less caring she becomes.

I do believe totally that they see what they are doing as trying to "fix" something in their lives that they feel they must fix, I know that is the case with my W. But at the same time they ARE doing horrible things TO the LBS, even if it isn't the "main" reason, a part of them must see that what they are doing hurts the LBS badly, worse than almost anything that has happened to them before in their entire lives. In my W's case she said she needed to "find my joy", to me, if finding joy means hurting so many, their S, their kids, family, etc. how in the world can you expect to find and enjoy any joy you may find? There would have to be guilt as well. When my W was depressed, one of the things that she had to work on in IC was "inappropriate feelings of guilt". She would talk about how she felt guilty about all kind of things but could never say exactly what. Her IC would give her exercises on how to overcome this. How would doing things that guilt may be an appropriate response help? And why would the fact that the LBS is leaving them alone cause them to be even more selfish and uncaring?

I see in shining's case, her H DOES seem to feel badly about what he is doing, even see's how he is hurting her but just is unable to stop or feels that he must move forward to 'fix" his life. Their latest talk shows that he somewhat see's what he is doing is hurtful and feels some remorse. In many other cases (including my own) there is none of that. In fact as the LBS goes darker or detaches the worse they become. There doesn't seem to be ANY understanding that what they have/are doing is at all hurtful. And in my case I know that in the past my W was very aware of how her actions affected other people and she was always careful not to do or say things to hurt others and if she did, was very remorseful. Like Wonka says, the empathy chip seems to be broken, if only when it comes to me.

Sorry to hijack, shining. This is just a subject that has been on my mind. I think if my W sent me a "game request" I'd have a heart attack! It's just hard for me to see her at all thinking/feeling anything close to hurt or guilt over what she is doing and I also see that in many other sitchs. Not to take anything away from cat. She is right in what she says in many cases. But I also think in many others there is none of that.