Wife having emotional affair part 2

[PatientMan]

But here is a good question. What do you do when she tries to get the control back? Let it just roll off your back.

Yes, you always ignore bad behavior and don't reward it with attention. Just keep working on you; ensure your boundaries are reasonable, in place, and enforced.

If she wants space and time, give her space and time. She shouldn't be asking for space and time and then coming to you to vent - that isn't reasonable. If you aren't clear about what she wants, ask her be clear. Then respect what she says, in agreement or not. But don't cave.

And PMA the crap out of her. Being kind and positive is not the opposite of having clear boundaries and only responding to certain types of behavior. This is a learned skill, and it can be mastered.

Here is your new mentality: nothing that she says or does bothers you in the slightest. She does not have the ability to affect you emotionally anymore. You are cool as a cucumber. You are an emotional rock. Do you understand this?

Also, make it a habit to read your rules every day until they become habit.

-PM

[Shakspr]

So glad I found Patient Man's rant. That was superb. Gonna read it again before I head home for the day.

[sandi2]

25years or Sandi how serious is depression or anxiety during this part of her life. With the divorce and seperation of the kids. She just started nursing school and is finally paying all her own bills. When I seen her yesterday I was very concerned. She had shortness of breath and a nervous talk and looked as white as a ghost. I asked if she wanted to go in right then but she refused and said she could go in tomorrow at her appointment. Is this something all WAW go through?

Every WAW is not in an A, however, wouldn't you say that a WAW who is in an affair complicates the stitch more than a WAW who is not having an affair? Are her actions/behavior more extreme, urgent, unpredictable and/or illogical than the WAW who does not have OM? If you said yes, then it is comparable to a WAW who does not suffer from depression and panic attacks to those who do.

When a depressed person suffers with panic attacks, it's like a blind person losing their ability to hear.

Yes, it is serious! It should never be shrugged off or taken lightly by family and friends. And, never act as if you believe she's "faking" when/if she has a panic attack. People experience different symptoms. The labored breathing and nervousness is a symptom. Some people experience chest pain. Some have a strong need to escape from wherever they are at that time, while others seem to be paralyzed. There are many symptoms, and it is a frightening experience. Must be why it's called "panic"-- b/c the feelings scare the one experiencing it.

Everyone that has depression doesn't suffer from panic attacks. However, some people do have both problems. (Disclaimer: I am not a doctor.)

[25yearsmlc]

25years or Sandi how serious is depression or anxiety during this part of her life. With the divorce and seperation of the kids. She just started nursing school and is finally paying all her own bills. When I seen her yesterday I was very concerned. She had shortness of breath and a nervous talk and looked as white as a ghost. I asked if she wanted to go in right then but she refused and said she could go in tomorrow at her appointment. Is this something all WAW go through?

Every WAW is not in an A, however, wouldn't you say that a WAW who is in an affair complicates the stitch more than a WAW who is not having an affair? Are her actions/behavior more extreme, urgent, unpredictable and/or illogical than the WAW who does not have OM? If you said yes, then it is comparable to a WAW who does not suffer from depression and panic attacks to those who do.

When a depressed person suffers with panic attacks, it's like a blind person losing their ability to hear.

Yes, it is serious! It should never be shrugged off or taken lightly by family and friends. And, never act as if you believe she's "faking" when/if she has a panic attack. People experience different symptoms. The labored breathing and nervousness is a symptom. Some people experience chest pain. Some have a strong need to escape from wherever they are at that time, while others seem to be paralyzed. There are many symptoms, and it is a frightening experience. Must be why it's called "panic"-- b/c the feelings scare the one experiencing it.

Everyone that has depression doesn't suffer from panic attacks. However, some people do have both problems. (Disclaimer: I am not a doctor.)

Just to add to Sandi's post above, I'll make a few observations.

The lumping together, even in questions, such as "[b]Do ALL WAW's do/feel/say X?"[/b] ETC, is a question that reveals a big misunderstanding on your part.
There are no hard and fast "rules" here, much as we'd love to pretend that we have the "secret", we don't.

I'd word it this way, "NO WAWs are exactly alike"....and that's why a one-size-fits-all approach is dangerous.

Also, I notice that you are reading a lot and that's generally good. Really, it is.

Except when it means you mix your approaches up and confuse yourself OR you send out confusing signals and nothing consistently different, from you, is seen. You want to know when she'll be convinced that you are a different man and therefore you two can have a different/BETTER marriage...here's the 'math' of it.

"consistent change + sufficient time = change she can trust."

So make a choice about which approach you'll pursue, and give it enough time to assess whether your situation is improving.

Alter your course of action when the DB coach agrees that the monitoring shows a different approach would succeed more, or if the results are not encouraging or at some point perhaps bag the whole DB approach and go for a new one.

Just be fair to whatever approach you choose. That requires TIME.

Div Busting is solution based, which makes it different than many b/c some approaches have decided they are "right" - and don't seem to care much if their advice actually does work. In fact if your efforts with their approach fails, they'll tell you to do it again, or that you did not do it right OR that nothing would save your m.

Here, we want you to do what works, and we have some insights into what's most likely to work, in the books and MWD's teachings. I'd add that THIS BOARD excels at telling us what will NOT work (like nagging, yelling, pleading, etc).

DBing is also not often a "tough love" approach, like some. In this case I feel the most compassionate approach (not = doormat) is even more appropriate than usual. Your wife sounds emotionally fragile.

Furthermore, as Sandi points out, Not all WAWs have As, and even those who are having A's are not all equally or as deeply invested in the A. (And let's face it, some affairs happen for reasons that are more understandable than others, even if you claim that they are "always wrong".)

How a spouse treats or speaks of their affair says a lot too.

Some will hide & deny an A, versus some who will brazenly announce to the world that they are "Really in love NOW" or "finally in love, for the first time" etc. (OUCH!!)

In my opinion there is less hope with the brazen ones b/c they seem so resolute, that they seem less likely to come home than the men/women who hide their affairs --BUT I have no empirical evidence to support that. It's just my opinion.

I've seen both happen, but the ones who hide the affairs, I THINK, usually have done less damage perhaps. I believe part of the reason DB and MWD are so opposed to snooping and exposing is b/c of the collateral damage it can cause.
IMO, the more people who know of an A, the harder it is for the spouse to return home AND the harder it is for the LBS to take them back. A lot of folks will advise against reconciling and I'm not sure why, since it happens with couples who have long histories together (as opposed to marriages in which many family/friends have long wished for a divorce b/c they dislike a spouse) Even with couples that friends and family have long believed in, there are some who urge punitive measures and a divorce "ASAP", or staying married and staying miserable, which I think is the worst possible choice.

Regardless, "Keep the road home paved and smooth" was the advice I got from my DB coach. She advised me to not make coming home harder for my h than they already would be.

Frankly, I didn't expect the kids to have such hard feelings towards him but they do. So HE IS PAYING a price for things he did or did not do, years ago, even now. (FWIW, Never assume the wayward spouse gets off "scot free").

More important at the moment, is that Your wife is showing symptoms of mental/emotional illness. I'm not sure how much accountability to apply here, but I'm also not asking you to be a martyr.

The thing is:

Just b/c it's a psychological problem, does NOT; 1) rule out a physical cause,

and or; 2) does NOT make it less serious than a completely physical ailment.

Her condition MUST be considered when you evaluate your options.


BTW, We've had 2 suicides on these boards, that I know of. I'll never forget that when I give out advice and a spouse shows signs of breakdowns or illness or emotional disturbances.

I recall in one case some DBers were discussing whether the wife "really was ill" or was using it as "an excuse for adultery".

But the reality is that when she confronted the damage she had caused her family and friends, and the shame/remorse she had for hurting them, and the sadness she felt as she realized she had a "life long condition" which she'd have to manage better, forever, it was too much for her to come back from.

She felt unforgivable, & perhaps, unforgiven. So she took her life & left a note.

Your wife cannot be treated as if she's manipulating you. She's not in the same boat as a rational woman who is bored or worn out from an unrewarding marriage, and has met a new OM, wants to "start fresh", rather than working on the "Same old lousy m"....

Your wife sounds clinically depressed and shows signs of an acute anxiety disorder.

I'm familiar with that^^ b/c our youngest was diagnosed with both of these about 6 months ago. She was Extremely depressed and also had panic attacks, which I'd never seen before. Then I witnessed my teenager have one, and honestly It freaked me out, (and I'm not the one having them!) Scary and sad to see.

I would think medication and behavioral modification would be among the therapies tried w/your wife. Our d17 has tried 3 meds, and is now satisfied with the medication she takes, which is monitored by a psychiatrist.

She also is doing relaxation exercises, yoga, and some cognitive behavior therapy with her therapist, which also seems to help. We pulled her out of regular school and put her on Ind Study and some homeschooling...

It took my physician h and I a LOT of thought before we agreed to any meds for her, as her brain is still developing, and we think kids tend to be over medicated generally, these days. etc.

But I'm a convert now. Our d is a lot better than she was 6 months ago, objectively speaking and subjectively she says she is happier. 6 months ago she was VERY depressed and very anxious. Her grades plunged back then, but now have gone back up.
I tell you all this b/c With your wife, if she's clinically depressed, with an anxiety disorder, I cannot see her getting better without professional help.

In fact, I believe your wife would have improved by now without help, if she could have.

But she can't.

So imo, getting her help ought to be THE priority ****To the extent YOU have any effect there***.

More later...

[3kids]

So much to say. PM thank you that is what I have been doing. That with GAL has really helped me detach. If you put a smile on it really does affect you all around.

Sandi and 25years I guess my question was more based on do you see that a lot of WAW go through this kind of depression or anxiety. When reality hits them.

25years I have read your post about 5 times now! I must say you have scared the ---- out of me. For the simple fact about a month ago me and the wife were talking when Robin Williams died. She was talking about suicide and how it had crossed her mind but she could never go through with it. I took it very serious that night but when her mood changed in the next few days I never took a second look at it. So this does concern me a lot.

Today I received a phone call from the wife but could not answer it, five minutes later she call back. I thought something was wrong because it was before her appointment and she didn't leave a message the first time and never calls back that fast. So I answered it to find out she canceled her appointment with the doctor because she just can't afford the bill or the medication(only insurance we have is major med). She told me she had had a long conversation with her old best friend sister. This sister is awesome! But anyways the sister new nothing about what the wife had been going through. So she informed her that to try something for one week and then she if it didn't work they would figure out the doctor bills together. There plans is for the wife to do some yoga and discuss things with close friends and even some meditation and natural herbs. I was a little frustrated at first but when the conversation was going on I realized she reached out to the right person in her sister(positive). I told her how important she is and needs to take care of herself right now. If she needs anything to let me know. She thanked me again for every thing that I've been doing and being there for her. She stated that I am the only one who has understood what she is going through and been there for her. I validated the best I could. Told her to take care and I would see her at the sons football game tonight. And said goodbye.

At the game I kept my PMA going. Played with my other two kids. Noticed a lot of smiles from the wife while doing this. Who knows?

Another question for you two vets is this. Do I reach out to her family about this depression and anxiety? Do I reach out to the wife tomorrow and let her know to call me when these panic attacks come or are very serious? Because this whole thing concerns me a lot. I don't think she will have that big of a problem in the next couple of days because she has the kids for the next five days. But that's assuming! And with this I don't want to assume anything.

Thank you all very very much!

[25yearsmlc]

one question before I go into detail later...

wasn't your wife's call an outreach for the money to pay for a doctor? Is she no longer on your insurance? Isn't she the mother of your children or some of them?

IS there no way you can help your wife with a medical problem, especially since it may be costing you your marriage? What if she had cancer?

I'd think her health would be at the TOP of your list.

I'm sorry if this sounds like a 2 x 4, b/c I am being sincere. Yet I cannot believe you did not pick up on the need in her call.

You really did Not think that what she really needed most was help in paying the medical bills?

What can you do to help? Are there financial obstacles stopping you? IF so, have you ever discussed those with her? Could she handle that?

((( )))

[3kids]

25years yes if I could afford it I would. I am financially taped. And she does no this. I have been saving up money even to file bankruptcy. I cover every thing for the kids in costs and pay well over my limit for child support. I was the one who even managed to get just major medical for the family when we didn't have anything.

But maybe I should put the offer out there that maybe we could figure it out together if need be. Yes you are correct in that I didn't pick up on that. Maybe it was that where do I stop being a husband and let her try and figure out her own life for once. This is all hard for me to understand. On where to stop and where to pick up.

[25yearsmlc]

You wrote way back when, that you had anger issues and would fly off the handle easily. You mentioned in July (7 months after first coming here and then sort of disappearing, saying) you had gotten "bad advice", which I assume meant you followed that bad advice....so that means more damage was done to the relationship but you were pretty darn vague...

But you admitted in July, 7 months after first coming here, that you still have those temper issues....

How Have you worked on your "stuff"?

You also said money was a big problem for you two, that you knew she was working hard at her job AND going to nursing school. What are YOU doing to help wth that chronic stressor?

BTW, I have 3 nurses in my family and each one put themself thru nursing school. But not one of them ALSO worked AND OR had young kids at home, at the same time.

Here is more of what you wrote about yourself, which is not nearly as detailed as what you write about your wife, but here goes, YOU WROTE:


Problems where. I had to much pride to sell house short sale way. We worked opposite shifts. Had to have her work a full time job while going to school full time. Never showed that much affection towards her. Like dates and cuddling. Did not appreciate her as much as I should have. Focused all my attention on kids and job and none on her. Plus talking got to be yelling.
_________________________


H and I put ourselves thru college, med school and law school, and so I know how hard it can be on a marriage. We had kids along the way, too. But I always knew there was an end in sight. H WOULD earn more someday, and I would NOT always have to work full time and care for the kids on such a solo basis. It's important to know there is a reasonable light at the end of the tunnel.

But your w sure got very little out of the situation from what I can tell. Plus, to have your temper on top of her working AND going to school, that must have created a lot of empty love tanks in her.

(Read "The Five Love Languages" by Chapman, if & when you have finished the Div Busting books, b/c it discusses how we each give AND OR receive love in different ways. Though it may seem obvious, what is really clear is that we tend to give love in "our language" and NOT in our spouse's language and we tend to be absurdly stubborn about it.

For instance, You said your wife appreciated compliments so we know ONE of her love languages is "words of affirmation", yet you also admit you don't give many compliments. Thing is, giving compliments is one of the easiest "Fixes" to make and yet you questioned it several times. Like maybe you ought to stop complimenting her. (??) I don't get that.

It costs you nothing to give a compliment, and is NOT "pursuit" if it is an authentic compliment. It's just a Kindness & a reflection of reality. IF she cooked a delicious meal, there is no "pursuit" in telling her she's a good chef or that you enjoyed the dinner; in fact I'd argue it's rude NOT to mention it.

Saying you "wish she'd come home to cook some more" IS pursuit.

If/when she looks wonderful, there's nothing wrong with noting it and it's NOT pursuit to say "you look great" or notice specifically if she has gotten in good shape or lost weight or whatever.

It only becomes pursuit when YOU expect something back in return for the compliment, AND OR when it's flirting, or taking the compliment too far and making it too intimate.

But that sort of goes along with the "wanting something in return for the compliment" -- which will feel like the manipulation it truly would be in that scenario. Do you get what I mean by all ^^this?

I worry that you are glossing over your own work, attaching labels to her behavior like "MLC," which this is NOT, and ignoring the things you really could have control over, like finances, work schedules, your temper, and your inability to be kind and expressive to her - without wanting something in return.

BTW, you may find this study helpful in explaining SOME of the expectations that most people have. it was a study about what each gender wants most in a spouse. The 2 things most spouses want in their mates.

MEN tend to want a wife who is 1) attractive to them, (chemistry), AND

2) peace in the home. (That was seen as meaning not a lot of nagging and fighting).

WOMEN want 1) Security, (financial AND physical). A roof over her head and food on the table, (this need greatly increased with children). So #1 was seen to mean essentially, women want providers and safety.

AND The second item most valued by wives was 2) Fidelity, which is self explanatory.

So in your case, your wife had at least one love language that was not "Spoken" in her home, (= words of affirmation) and so her love tank was close to empty, AND she did not have a provider so much as an "assistant provider",

b/c as you said, she "has to work full time AND go to school" to advance her education and career and provide for the family better.


Leaving aside the issues you have with your wife, what do you think of all ^^^this? Can you understand why most rational women would be less than delighted with this arrangement?

So add to that - her own issues, like an anxiety disorder, & a ton of triggers around her - for that disorder to fulminate into full blown panic attacks, and I think you might view your marital problems a bit differently.

As much as you make of her OM, you yourself dated within what, 2 weeks of her leaving? When you broke it off with OW, I recall you mentioning how you had NOT told your wife that. All I could wonder then was, "why the heck not?" I assume it was a 'strategy" but it looks more like a punishment on your part, like she had not paid enough of a price for leaving...(just think about it).

Questions: Were your wife's nursing plans going to be THE way out of financial problems for your family?

Were You doing anything to increase your income, or was it mostly (or all) on her shoulders?

25years yes if I could afford it I would. I am financially taped. And she does no this. I have been saving up money even to file bankruptcy. I cover every thing for the kids in costs and pay well over my limit for child support. I was the one who even managed to get just major medical for the family when we didn't have anything.


3kids, what I'm about to say is probably sexist and unfair, but I still think it's true. In our society, right or wrong, we tend to see men as the main providers.

Maybe it's biological, as there are some sociologists who think the "CAVEMAN THEORY" supports this^^ finding.

In their view, the study's findings stem from a biological need in humans.

So, way back in prehistoric times, men left the cave for food. Women helped ut directly with the hunting/gathering if there were no kids,

but if there were children, Women stayed back in the cave & tended to the babies and kept the fire going (literally).

When the man came back, he needed to have some meat or at least berries and fruit, or they'd starve.

The cave woman needed to have protected the children and the cave, (no holes to the outside letting wind in, more wood for the fire, etc) or they'd die. When together, they bonded to fight & keep the wild animals from the cave & the baby. "Marriage" (i.e. partnership) and the division of labor, was required to survive.

Today, there are women who stay inside mediocre marriages, or worse, solely BECAUSE their husbands are "good providers".

Bottom line is that it's important to a woman's feelings of security, to have a h who can provide a roof over their heads & food on the table,

AND OR

to be able to do it herself. To me, it sounds as if your wife decided she needed to become a better provider, so she did this by going to more schooling. To me it seems like SHE figured it out just fine, except she was playing Superwoman and setting herself up for major disappointment -- b/c no one can survive that lifestyle with all those demands, INSIDE an unrewarding marriage, for long.

I think your w was in a real bind, for which that she lacked communication tools to discuss. Neither of you were able to express yourselves without it escalating, per your description of "talking became yelling"...

I also think she now has developed (or always had, but suppressed better), some emotional problems that are clouding her judgement and adding pressure to her already stressful life.

Do you see any validity to ^^^those statements?

I say all this^^ Not to make you feel terrible, but to help you see things from HER point of view. I fear that you are not doing that very much -- and the better you can empathize, the better your r with her (& others) will be.

I don't know what OM's temper is like, (but you admit it's a weakness of Yours), but I'm sure he SAID he could offer her financial security, and perhaps spoke in her love language by giving her compliments (words of affirmation) & making her feel like THE priority in the relationship.

So in some small way, can you see why or how OM appealed to her?


But maybe I should put the offer out there that maybe we could figure it out together if need be. Yes you are correct in that I didn't pick up on that.

I would, regardless of any OM. She is the mother of your children. This is medical --- and "in sickness and in health" was a vow you made (I assume).

Maybe it was that where do I stop being a husband and let her try and figure out her own life for once. This is all hard for me to understand. On where to stop and where to pick up.

Wow...okay so a couple things.

First, You are still her h, correct? Why stop that when she has a medical issue?

But what's with the comment "let her try and figure out her own life for once"?

seems to me, SHE was working full time and going to school AND not getting appreciated or complimented or treated very well

so to ME it sounds like she did her part and more.

You said it was Your "pride" that kept your family in a home you could not afford, that you made financial errors getting you all close to bankruptcy. Yet It was HER career that she was working on to improve the family's finances...so couldn't she say the same about you not figuring out life on your own?


Regardless, I don't see this^^ as an appropriate time for you to "let her face the consequences" of her actions. What does her illness have to do with that?

You want her to be pushed in OM's arms, or to have him take care of her to save her life, or what?

I definitely do not see how you advance your cause by saying you are "too poor to help" AND OR "Well this is what happens if you leave me", b/c I don't see the connection.

Nor do I see how it makes marriage to you, more appealing. That IS a goal of yours, right? Please Note that--

WASs do NOT return to a marriage they left,

UNLESS they believe --

that marriage to their spouse can be different/better than before.

How are you demonstrating that? (Not with words but with actions)?


Side Notes: As a nurse, she'd get normal job benefits with a full time job, like medical insurance for the family. I assume your job does not provide this. Are you hunting for a job that would?

I assume being a nurse would increase her pay. Nurses are in big demand now almost everywhere, and it's NOT hard to find a nursing job, although many of them are very demanding. Still, Even brand new graduates can find something that pays decently. Sometimes more than "decently" too. If she finishes, that would be good for her and your family.

RE medical insurance--- have you looked at any new plans made recently available in your state AND OR have you tried to enroll in Medicaid for your family?

If you are close to bankruptcy it is likely an option for you. Medicaid also offers mental health benefits, which your wife needs and I'd think you & your kids could use as well (Why not try?)

Do keep posting.

I think there's hope in your situation but I see things for you to avoid doing, that you are not avoiding enough. And giving her compliments that are sincere, is a good thing to do.

Also I think if you could make a plan for earning more money AND OR to live within your means better, would help you both feel more secure financially, you'd lower the stress in both your lives, teach your children an important life lesson, and even if you do not reconcile, it'll be better for the kids and you, to lessen these stressors.

Also, can you afford the dream house you are now renting? (Just asking). Did you get it after the sep BECAUSE she left?

QUESTIONS....Why didn't you ever offer her the opportunity to return home?

I may have missed that, AND I apologize if I did. From my recall, it looked as if you kicked her out b/c of anger/wounded ego and OM, and when she was falling apart you stood by helplessly and pointed at the "old house" she could temporarily stay in...as if it wasn't something she'd be legally entitled to do anyhow.

If that^^ is all or mostly true, how does that show her that marriage to you could be better or different for HER? Just think about it, please.

Good Luck and keep on keeping on.

[3kids]

Thank you 25years! I am a black and white person. And being blunt helps out a lot. I will read and reread your post and take notes and reply the best I can. Thank you again!

[sandi2]

Sorry, I didn't finish what I started to say in my post about not every WAW is in an A. I believe an A makes things much more difficult b/c of the nature of a wayward woman.

The same is true about depression and panic attacks. Not every WAW has either one, but when a WAW does suffer with either one.... It seems to cause the stitch to be worse than those who do not have it. It has it own brand of issues in addition to the WAW crisis.