Hey Dave, I am jumping into this conversation a little late. But I wanted to tell you that, in the course of resolving our sex problems, my H and I had the same exact conversation that you had with your wife: with him asking me exactly what that meant. He wanted details and quotas and things that I wasn't prepared to list out! For me, sexuality is something that is present in me all the time, just waiting for the right moment to get out.
I think that for H, though, he had lost such complete touch with his sexuality that he didn't have the first clue about how to go about all of a sudden showing passion towards me. The thought gave him panic attacks, I'm sure.
So I listed some simple things that I felt would have a lot of impact on our relationship--starting points, if you will. And at some point (well over a year into it) he started going above and beyond this, all on his own. Once he had started the ball rolling, he found it easier and easier to BE the man I wanted.
Plus, I think that....upon hearing the words that I was desperately unhappy with our love life, he just sank into insecurity and anxiety (if he wasn't already there previously). I believe that he began to build up, in his mind, what I was after and had himself all but convinced that he was not capable of delivering "that". I hear a lot of LD women (in real life, not so much on this board) who needlessly compare themselves to porn queens. Saying things like: If he expects me to act like a porn star, he needs to think again! This is insecurity speaking here. They are afraid to show themselves sexually for fear that it won't be enough, or that their hyper-sexed husbands will laugh at their offerings.
Which is why your wife asked for a list. A rather complete list, too.
But instead of delivering it to her so that she can basically paint by numbers, I think that it is wiser to give her a VERY SIMPLE set of guidelines to START with. Let her take it from there.
Here is what I told H:
1. I wanted some sexual attention outside the bedroom. Notice when I make an effort to look nice (which I always do). 2. Kiss me outside the bedroom. 3. Give me LONG hugs, with wandering hands, when we have the opportunity. 4. Make love at least twice per week, with no more than 3 days between sessions. (in other words, he wasn't allowed to "save" his duty for the weekend and give it to me twice then.)
That's it. Kisses, hugs, actual sex 2x per week, and tell me I look nice (preferably tell me I look HOT, but hey I know what he means.)
This list is now a thing of the past because he has gone so far over and above it that it is not necessary anymore to reference it whatsoever. He feels much more comfortable with himself and is able to show his sexuality in ways I never thought possible. So there is hope! (now he is still "shy" compared to you HD guys, but I am happy and satisfied with his efforts and that's all that matters).
I will do that...that's a good idea.. W agreed that she wants to focus on having fun with this than doing the heavy academic stuff. I proposed the 52 nights of naughty scratch off cards which she said she much rather do than therapy or reading self-help books. I'm going to order it. I think her head is in the right place. Well see. I thought it might be nice to put a small note on her mirror that says "have you hugged your husband today, but the real meaning will be a little more than a hug...so, I'm thinking of an acronym for "hug" like "hug, ____, grope".
Any suggestions for a words made up from "H.U.G" or "H.U.G.G.E.D"?
I guess maybe I'm not being clear, and/or, my situation is just not quite as bad as some. My W is perfectly "willing" to ML...(if you want to call lying there like a sack of potatoes "ML"), so maybe I'm better off than most. But that's not what I want. I can get that from a prostitute. What I want is for her to want to ML, genuinely and enthusiastically. I want it to be her idea, at least some of the time. She has enough on her plate... a busy day every day with alot of chores that she would rather not have, and at the end of the day, she's pooped...and I understand and appreciate that fact. I wish I could make her life easier, more than anything else. Putting another "chore" on her "to do" list would be contrary to that goal. I don't know...maybe the "h" in my "HD" isn't as "H" as I thought. either that, or my "really don't want to be a burden-D" is higher than my HD.
not sure I understand the link to the swollen nuts, although now that I think of it, if we just cut them off, that would solve our desire discrepancy problems. Then we'd both be LD, and happy. I think it was mentioned in the book, too, that its not any specific level of desire that's a problem, but the discrepancy that is the problem.
My point about Lance Armstrong's nut was that something like a small pain in the nut could kill one of the most seemingly healthy people in the world. Thus, a seemingly great relationship can be ruined by something that "seems like" it should not be important. Anyway, I was simply sharing a metaphor that popped up...some folks write peoetry, I come up with metaphors...some are better than others...this one might have been sucky. I've got another one brewing regarding "Oil and Gas"...I'll share later.
But seriously, that's why we are all here...It's the lack of desire, lustfullness etc. in our LD spouses that drives us completely nuts.
My W would oblige if I ever asked...but I never did because there was one time early in our marriage, that she (thinking that it would be funny) looked off into space, then looked at her watch like she had somewhere else to be.
Absolutely avoid having W think that everything is broken (even though it is)...sell her on a "vision" of what you think the ideal marriage is and include that there is a big physical element to a good marriage. Mine doesn't want to engage in any of this self-help stuff or acknowledge the problem...she just wants to talk herself back into being the way she was in college. We'll see if this works but after a few months of fumbling, we will probably be more open about where to take things.
The one thing I'm absolutely making sure I do is to eliminate every possible excuse she might have for not having desire. Most of the work will be in your hands...doing everything perfectly like helping, listening, cleaning up, etc. There's only a few things you can ask of her.... 1. Have her commit to the "vision" of the perfect marriage. 2. Have her recognize that the problem, while hers, is a problem for the relationship and that it will be impossible to achieve the vision without solving the problem. 3. Have her commit to having all "physical" possibilities examined like hormone deficiencies, etc. 4. Let her have "ownership" of her recovery. If that doesn't work, then keep sharing the vision. If that doesn't work, then....hmmm...this is the one thought that bums me out every day.
This might be oversimplifying, but I'm getting some successes this way.
Quote: I don't know...maybe the "h" in my "HD" isn't as "H" as I thought. either that, or my "really don't want to be a burden-D" is higher than my HD.
Oh, I like that. I think my "really don't want to be a burden-D" fluctuates, like when my wife is sick, which she has been for about 4 weeks. The good news is that she finally saw the doctor and got some meds. The better news is that I think she did this as a result of some words exchanged during our argument on Sunday: W: I haven't wanted to touch or be touched because I've been sick for three weeks. Me: You've been sick for three weeks because you made a choice NOT to see the doctor. W: I'm getting better. Me: It's the weekend. You always feel better on the weekend because you don't have to go to work.
Of course, Monday night she comes home, complaining of a very sore throat. Then she says, "I made an appointment to see the doctor." Hey, she made a good choice!
My wife is "Willing" to ML, and even enjoys it when we do. I will also say that ML to a "Willing" wife is actually WORSE then ML to a prostitute. Hookers would probably perform better since they want repeat busines. Willing wives actually want the business to go away.
