I guess I owe you an apology, and if you want to 'rip me a new one,' have at it. You will probably feel better letting loose and getting it off your chest.
But before you do, consider this.
1) What would possibly motivate me to humiliate you on a formum where we are all in the 'same boat,' albeit, on different parts of the boat, and are here to support and encourage one another? Why would I purposely try to hurt you?
2) Can you tell me WHY you felt humiliated? What led you to believe that your assumption about me and my motives were correct -- that I took your post personally, and felt I HAD to humiliate you. What was it about the parody that struck a cord?
3 If you are going to 'give it to me,' that's fine, I probably deserve it. But know before you do, that you had better be able to 'take' as good as you 'give.' And if you aren't willing to hear some things you might not want to hear, then let's let the issue die with my apology to you, and a promise never to make fun of you again (Although I wasn't trying to make fun of you, I was trying to make a point using humor, and it seems it has backfired in my face.)
Quote: It's in her nightstand drawer. It's been there 2 nights now...unread. Oh man I wish she would read it.
You gave her the list, now back off and don't hound her. She'll read it (if she hasn't already!) - understand this... just because it appears that she hasn't read it does not mean she hasn't!
Give her some time and enjoy the baby steps she makes. Lovingly encourage her and appreciate her efforts.
Dave36, I don't think you should look apon Corri's joke as offensive to you. We all have incredible pent up frustration and occasionally that shows itself in an outburst of ironic comedy. You worked hard on your letter and it actually says what every one of us HDs wants to say but it is also a long and devastating personal critisism of your W and it would have been a mistake to give it to her. I do think that you should shred your letter. An LD could never take in that much stuff all in one go. I think our approach should be by encouraging the little things they do do in the hope that the praise will drive them to do more. Remember - we have all read the book and our love and expectations are running high. They are in denial and they have not had the narcotic "fix" that the book has given us. Finally - continue to open up to us. We are the only people in the world who know exactly what you are going through and are willing to help. It may be that Corri has done you a favour by stopping you from delivering your letter.
No, I'm not ripping into anyone...I've chilled out. I'll try to explain better why I went off the deep end and how that translated to positive results, but first I'll address some comments...
Quote: 1) What would possibly motivate me to humiliate you on a formum where we are all in the 'same boat,' albeit, on different parts of the boat, and are here to support and encourage one another? Why would I purposely try to hurt you?
2) Can you tell me WHY you felt humiliated? What led you to believe that your assumption about me and my motives were correct -- that I took your post personally, and felt I HAD to humiliate you. What was it about the parody that struck a cord?
I never assumed you were trying to humiliate me on purpose. You've traditionally provided the most constructive insights of anyone. Reading the comment and first 2 sentences made me see the silliness of my letter but seeing that it kept going, and going, and going...mixing my heartfelt words and desire for affection with something as meaningless as shopping became entertainment to others rather than constructive criticism to me. The criticism was right on the money...the delivery hurt.
Quote:
3 If you are going to 'give it to me,' that's fine, I probably deserve it. But know before you do, that you had better be able to 'take' as good as you 'give.' And if you aren't willing to hear some things you might not want to hear, then let's let the issue die with my apology to you, and a promise never to make fun of you again (Although I wasn't trying to make fun of you, I was trying to make a point using humor, and it seems it has backfired in my face.)
I'm not going "give it to you"...especially not my credit card. The truth is that I came to this list in a "panicky", desperate state of mind. I couldn't see the big picture because I was so focused on this problem with my LDW. Having the ouburst (and this happens to me only once every few years) "snapped" me out of this state of mind where the following positive things then happened...
1. I was able to see that W IS acknowledging her problem and that it is unfair and COUNTERPRODUCTIVE to push her any faster.
2. She's her own person...her style of dealing with things is much more organic than mine...I research, analyze and strategize the bajeezus out of a topic...she doesn't and I have to accept that. Now, I will also say that her style has failed her too and we're not out of the woods yet. But I might post something about how I'm handling this later.
3. The goal is to increase her desire for me...how attractive is it to have a husband who is whining about the state of the relationship, reading self-help books, and visiting support websites? NOT SAYING THESE DON"T HAVE VALUE...just that I need to absolutely make sure that my persona with her is one of strength, confidence and commitment. I'll save my weak moments for this place so I can focus on the positive with her. Fortunately, I have kept all of this hidden so far except giving her SSM...she doesn't know I visit this site...which is fine. People are attracted to winners...period. Also, people are attracted to mystery...laying ALL out there leaves you with no mystery at all.
4. I have to praise W...she won't engage in conversation that isn't productive. Therefore, I've used this forum to rant which shields her from seeing the wounded version of me. Here, I can ramble like a complete idiot. ., develop key "points" and talk calmly with her in a positive way.
5. Just realized that I have moments of clarity just after "exploding". Why do I explode? Because I "take crap" and keep smiling because I never want to show disappointment or anger in front of W...it builds up over a couple of years and then some poor, unsuspecting person pushes the "ignite button" and I completely unleash...sorry it was you this time Corri. BUT this definately indicates something that I need to work on like being more assertive to W. Someone had mentioned the issue of respect...that I wasn't "respected" by my wife...I get why...I'm too happy-go-lucky and I always try to make others feel good so I avoid getting "real"...I probably seem like a clown.
6. Because I was now calm and all my frustration with my M had been released. I was able to use another Corri tip when talking to my W and finally "got it". It has to do with talking about change. Instead of "you should do this...you should do that...blah blah", you simply say things like "I really want us to be like (fill in the blank)....and some of the good things I think they do are (fill in the blank). At my office, we call this "visioning".
So, the night of my explosion, I was very calm. In bed, she told me that she was upset with something I said earlier...wow...a first! This indicated to me that she is "re-engaged" with me...she never used to tell me when I did something hurtful...a great sign (btw, she, like me, tries to make everyone happy and doesn't assert herself either). This gave me an opportunity to tell her how pleased I was to hear that despite how crappy I felt for what I had said. She said she recognizes all the great things I'm doing to reconnect to, and build the relationship and that she too would address her LD issue to become a better W. We did the "visioning" thing and I joked that I always thought that the couple in Hart to Hart were good "ideals" (note that that was my favorite show when I was 12).
This also gave me an opportunity to gently let her know that my "new-and-improved-husband" behavior is fueled by her desire...this was a nice way to let her know that I can't keep the "spirit" alive without her help...she got it and has committed herself. I've simply got to give her a chance and some room figure things out for herself. She doesn't have a history of setting goals and achieving them (which is why I think we're not out of the weeds yet) but I'm going to try to be gently persistent and have regualar talks like this.
The last time we had a good discussion like this, she asked what my expectations were so she could get a sense of the bahaviors I desire. She asked for a list because it was more productive than me simply saying "desire me more"...she wanted to know what that really meant. My list definately read like a technical manual...more like an instruction book for owning a rare animal species with wierd dietary and medical needs...a book entitled "How to Get Pandas To Reproduce". So I took the CeMar guide which is actually really good at characterizing the types of behaviors that us HD men want. This was the first section of my list to be read as a "primer" before I spoke in my own words. I replaced my 5 page list with the following 2 entries... 1. What the primer says.. 2. Ask me, and I will tell you.
Dave, You and I are from the same mold! I think your attitude is spot on. A bit of anger now and then clears your mind. Even better if it is directed at complete strangers and not at your lovely NDW. Isn't it amazing how very similar all us HDs are. I really believe that most of us will succeed!
Here is a book that I think is the perfect users guide to the HD man. This book is written to help women understand MEN. Women think they understand men, but they usually have no real clue as to the TRUE importance of sex to a mans EMOTIONAL well being. That is, until they read this book. I could not find anything in this book that did NOT fit my personality.
Read it first before giving to the wife. It may be to intense to give a very LD women until they make some strides forward. It may scare them too much!
I have read both books, and I intend on reading the latter book again to help me understand women better. Funny how the book for understaning women is about 4x the sixe of the book to understand men!!! Us guys have to learn about EVERYTHING, while the women only need to learn that it really is all about sex to men (at least the HD type)!!
Oh, I am so happy for you!! And if blowing up at me helps you make strides with your wife, then blow up at me anytime you feel like it.
Have you asked your W if she would read SSM with you? I think the thing that SSM did for me was allow me to truly understand how my H was feeling. I was able to empathize, and feel what it was like to be in his shoes. Just from that, I became motivated to discover HOW to work with my LD state.
Keep in mind, and I know this is hard to do, that empathy and compassion is a two-way street. Try to understand what it would be like FOR YOU to have your desire just... evaporate. Try to understand what that would FEEL like, how that would make YOU feel as a spouse, and how it would make you feel if your spouse responded to said state with anger, criticism, and disdain. (I'm not saying you do that, but I'm sure you have at times, just out of frustration). What do you think that would do for your self-esteem and your motivation level?
Most LDs have NO CLUE why they do not experience desire the way their HD partners do, and because desire is portrayed in the media like the way most HD people feel, LDs are left feeling as though something is majorly WRONG with them. They feel like continual failures, or extremely defensive when it comes to talking about their sexuality.
The simple matter of fact is, people experience desire in all different kinds of ways, and one way isn't necessarily more 'right' than any other way. (For the most part -- I'm not talking about medical problems, etc.) The trick for HDs and LDs is to find what works for THEM -- and that involves yanking yourself out of the 'Center of the Universe' seat, and putting yourself in your spouse's shoes. Working together instead of against each other; supporting one another when you trip, rather than criticize the person for stumbling.
You'd think this would be an easy thing to do. But it seems to me that the longer we are with someone exclusively, the more we take the other for granted and just assume that the other person WILL take care of our needs, and do it cheerily. And somehow, we just become amazed and shocked when the other person seems to drop the ball. I think always taking one another for granted is where people lose grip of their respect. Just IMHO.
Keep talking with your wife. Keep heavy conversations short but clear. And if you get the chance, if you haven't read it already, I'd read "The Four Agreements," by Don Miguel Ruiz. It may be a little new agey for some, but man, if you can practice every day his four agreements, whether you agree with his 'bigger picture' or not, I think you'd see an astounding difference in your life. It's tough, too. It all sounds so simple, but practicing it everyday is something all together different.
Anyway, I'm glad you are in a better place, and again, I am sorry for any hurt I caused.
I have been giving thought to the sort of letter I might be able to send W. She would not be able to cope with a long list of wants - I know that because if I try and talk about my wants it always ends in an argument and a very turbulent sleepless night. Let me run this idea past you. I want her to read the book but she won't so I buy some top quality writing paper and hand write a love letter including the whole of page 9 (the page where it lays bare what it is like to be HD). With the letter I include a booking confirmation for a night at a luxury old English manor house hotel in the country. I'll make it clear that this is not for a dirty weekend but for us to discuss and plan the rest of our lives together. I will buy the "Understanding the LD Woman " book for me to read as well so the learning does not appear to be one sided. What do you think guys? SuperDave
Here's an update.... Today, I was dropping my BIL off at the airport and I told W this... "Hey, how about if I take over our daughter and you take a bath, get relaxed so that we can have a relaxing evening together?" The reply was a key indicator that I should just chill out. Here's why..while she was in mommy mode with our daughter in the backseat whining etc., she slipped me a note that said "Would the plan be any different if my 'aunt' was visiting?" (time of month...aunt flo...get it?). What it represents is that she was able to see herself as a woman simultaneous to being a mom. Also, she had acknowldged and took my request seriously.
We had a fairly deep talk tonight. We both recognized that we were in the "catch-22" for the past 9 years and both agreed to start from a clean slate. I was able to "vision" with her as to what an ideal marriage is...she is committed to doing her part. In the past she has never been good at translating goals into actions so we briefly discussed some starting points and I was able to use SSM (which she is half way through) to discuss that the first step should be to eliminate any possibly physical issue and she committed to getting it done.
We discussed her motivation and her approach in a positive way...I never criticised her for her lack of speed but I indicated that an indication of her "pursuit" builds hope equally as much as "progress". That she should let me know that she's actively pursuing a solution.
We discussed how she's completely wiped out at the end of the day and simply wants to watch a little TV and not be touched, hugged etc. because the kid have sort of burned her out. She has told me this for years, I completely empathize with her and have never expected her to magically "turn on" at that part of the day. But I'm very proud that I didn't just drop the topic and let her off the hook...I proposed a solution (maybe this is a boundry and I felt "respected" after saying this..."If you currently give 99% of your time to kids, a (compulsively) spotless home, volunteer work, the neighborhood association, the PTA, and the household business, etc. and you share the same vision of where our relationship should be, and knowing that it will require maybe an hour a day of (not just physical) "us" time...then when do you want to fit it in (because at 9pm, I'm just getting table scraps)....where can I take over some of your workload? (BTW, I work at home...we've got a 24 hr window)
We established that we neglected Aniverseries and Vdays in the past and that we should have some days that "honored" as "us" days.
She read the Guide to HD Men...this turned out to be a better way to go because it was someone elses words. It did not overwhelm her but she has an issue with sleeping naked but will do it occasionally. Her issue with this has to do with a fear that the firemen will see her naked when she's rescued from the burning house. .
I explained my reasoning for pulling it back because it would be like telling someone who is in rehab, re-learning to walk, that they will need to run a marathon in a month. I repeated that I want her to "own" her recovery. She controls the timeline, I control the scope (to some degree). She was very relieved by this because she does feel like she's doing everything she can.
I think I'm really fortunate because I've never made an issue about the LD thing and have spared her the insanity that I'm sharing here. Thank god for this place because I'm definately sanity checking some screwy ideas...she knew it was an issue but just didn't take it seriously. Now she understands that it's a priority to achieve the "vision" of where we should be.
So glad to hear that you are making good progress with your W. I think that you have been too hard on yourself and too absorbed in finding a quick solution to your SSM problem that you had let yourself be so affected by Corri's lighthearted manner in getting the message across with some humour.
When I first read your list, I was very impressed and thought Wow! Such a lovely letter, now if only my H would give me such a list I would be sooooo happy. (But then I am the HD wife) and my H is not an expressive man (not in words anyway but he does try his best to show me in actions that he does love me though not physically). Did you take your letter back? I hope you didn't. It appears that your W is really open into discussing this issue with you and I think only you (not anyone of us here) would understand her well enough to guage what sort of reaction you would get from her. To me, the letter was very heartfelt and you really gave it a lot of thought and IMHO you were too quick to withdraw it after reading others comments. Anyway I am glad too that after your initial reaction you did not take Corri's post too personally. Corri, as usual is very insightful and helpful to many of us here and she really gives each of our problems a lot of thought. Her post brought tears of laughter to my eyes but no I do not think you are in any way a laughing stock. Not at all. So hang in there man. Stay on here and vent. Like you, I use this place to vent so that my H won't get the brunt of it. I think thats good strategy.
The truth is that I came to this list in a "panicky", desperate state of mind. I couldn't see the big picture because I was so focused on this problem with my LDW. Having the ouburst (and this happens to me only once every few years) "snapped" me out of this state of mind where the following positive things then happened...
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