Wife Still in MLC but has now left #3

[Shining]

Ugh. First, I'm sorry, and 14 year old teen girls are insane no matter what the parental situation.

This is one area I'm experienced in.... Not an expert, but I've been exactly where you are.

Just like I thought she would, she got angry <<<< perhaps some acting "as if" here?
(something she has learned from her mother)<<<<<< right or wrong, got to stop the blaming.
and said "I got up before 7:00 AM! How early do I need to get up?". I say calmly again "Well, it's 30 miles away and we need time to get there". I got back from her.. "Mom lives 4 min's from school....". <<<< typical pitting against each other. You'll see this for as long as it works for D14 .

Here's the thing, Matt, you are not losing your D14. But with the ever-building anger and resentment, you could.

It was good that you didn't actually say out loud what you were thinking. But sometimes, just thinking it can exude the same energy, even with different words....still:

"D14, it wasn't my choice for your mom to move so far away. She didn't think about me or you and what it would mean when you stayed with me. She moved there because it's where all her friends live, not because she wanted you to be closer to school so you could sleep later". It was the closest thing to me saying something "bad" about her mother and her choices since this all started!

I'm sorry for being bold here, but I have to be straight up with you. ^^^^ That is exactly the stuff that will drive your D14 right toward her mother. You are a better man than that. Dig deep for restraint.

Just don't talk about W AT ALL. ZERO. Don't assign motives. Don't mind-read. And DON'T talk at all about your opinions about W. Wear the white hat. It stinks what is happening, but your reactions can make it either positive or negative for you in the long run.

I went through a TERRIBLE custody battle, thought I was losing my 4 kids to a man I thought had everyone bamboozled by his lies and manipulation. He didn't. And I have them 100% of the time now. But I thought he was "winning" at the time. I had to let go of that, and it was nearly impossible as their solid parent. But I trusted my L. He said be consistent. Be calm. Be solid. He was right.

You will lose many battles. But if you wear the white hat, you WILL win the war. So let go of the battles, right?

What are the knowns? The school is far. The drive is inconvenient. There is a time to leave, or she will be late. Talk to D14 about the problem with both facts, and respect. Isolate the problem, and direct both your energies together, to come up with a solution.

D14 might come out and say she wants to live with her mother, whether out of anger or just to get a rise from you (and that is common, so don't be surprised if she does....may not even be personal. She's 14 and hormonal). That is what they do. Your job is to not react. Stick to facts. Talk about how that would play out. Talk about the whole picture, write it out. Weigh the negatives and positives. Calmly. She can't complex problem-solve like that yet. D14 lives mostly in impulse and emotion. That's normal.

I had to let my kids go with xh many times before the courts were willing to rule even temporary custody. He made grandiose plans. I looked like a failure. He snatched them for Christmas one year and I crumbled. I cried all day. My kids called me in the afternoon, crying because dad was sleeping and their Christmas was ruined, and they missed me. Your W will fail on her own, over time. Don't get caught up in every battle.

Be consistent. Be the strong, dependable, non-reactive one. White hat, Matt. You can do this.

[Matt165]

Thanks LT and Shining,
It is just so hard sometimes when you know you are trying your best and you also know that D14 is being manipulated (W did it in front of me when at my place over the weekend). As far as saying anything bad about her mother, like I said this was absolutely the "worst" thing I have said. When my W left and didn't bother telling her that she not just left but also filed for D, I explained to my D that I did try the best I could to stop this from happening but nothing I did seemed to make a difference. I was so careful to not say anything negative about her mother even though at that time I was in bad shape and really hurting. It was just the way she said that her mom lives so close like she did it FOR D14, it hit a button and I was rushed and tired.

You know as well as I do, sitting down and having a logical discussion with a 14 year old girl is almost impossible. It would be easier if my W wouldn't intervene but I can't do anything about that. I know you are right. I just get worried when I see my d14 being manipulated when I have tried so hard NOT to do just that. Of course I want her to have her mother in her life AND healthy. Right now my W is not healthy. It's been such a long time that I have been the involved parent while W wasn't at all concerned about much more than herself. I am so used to being there for D14, to make sure she gets to do the things she should be doing and when she is so far away it's hard.

When the subject of her mother comes up I am always respectful and try and keep a good attitude. When talking about things that happened in the past and her mother was part of them I always try to put her in a good light. Like when talking about a trip to the coast I would say "Yeah, and remember how mom did ____, that was so funny". The same as if she had never left. I doubt that my W does the same (that is mind reading a bit but it comes from experience).

This whole custody sitch is just such an awful thing to have to go through. It seems at times by just being the "good guy" (like when my W changed our arrangement without even bothering to ask or even tell me) that I'm GIVING my W more power than she should have. I don't want to be a doormat and allow my w to just get her way but at the same time I don't want to cause tension for my D either. It's like when my W threw a fit over a clock in front of both the kids and her friend. The thing that made me just stop and say "It's time for you to go" to my W was when I saw the looks on the faces of my kids. They were so shocked and uncomfortable. Fighting over some "thing" wasn't worth putting them through that. So my W throws a fit, makes everyone feel awful AND gets her way in the end (I let her just take it). Just doesn't seem like the right thing to do, the right message to send to my D14, that if you throw a fit and make everyone upset you'll get your way. But at the same time there is no reason to put her through that and "things" aren't worth her having to see an adult (her own mother) act like a child.

Thanks for the sanity check Shining. My W has taken so much from all of us. She seems to have gotten her way at every turn and it's hard to see something happening and just stay calm and consistent although I do understand that is the right thing to do. Time to just let things be and handle the things that I can.

[Lifes Twists]

Matt,

Why would you say,"Yeah, and remember how mom did ____, that was so funny"? Why bring your wife into any conversation you have with your daughter unless she prompts it? This is a lesson I had to learn and you need to do the same. Only on rare occasion do I ask my kids how their mother is doing. Other than that I try to pry as little as possible. You need to do this for yourself and your daughter. Showing interest will not help the situation. Detach.

On the other topic, there is no talking logically with a 14 year old. That is about as fruitless as hoping for a dramatic change in your wife. Stop pinning hopes on the fruitless and get your self grounded for both you and your daughter.

[Matt165]

I think you have the wrong idea LT.
I'm talking about when we are talking about things that happened in the past, that would be impossible to NOT mention that when these things were happening their mother was there, was part of the whole point of the conversation. In fact acting like it was only me and them would be odd and seem like a deliberate try to erase the fact that they ever had a mother. There is no reason to act like she never existed or that mentioning her will cause problems. They don't need to think that the mere mention of her will cause me pain (it doesn"t). She is their mother and they do things with her that they want to talk about, why make them feel like they can't talk about their lives if their mother was there? I NEVER ask my D's about what my W is or isn't doing and never bring her up unless by them or because it would be impossible not to. As for "prying", no way! I show no interest in what my W is doing at all. The last thing they need is to feel like I'm interrogating them for information. The fact is I really DON'T care what she is doing when she isn't causing me headaches! She could be studying to become a circus performer and I really don't care.

I also tried to make it clear that I know I can't expect to have a logical conversation with a 14 year old. That was the actual point I was trying to make, that trying to do THAT would be impossible. There are ways to go about trying to get her to understand what the situation calls for (like her HAVING to get up earlier when she is with me) that don't involve "logic". That was the point I was trying to make.

I have not and will not act as if the past never happened, that we never were a family whether that is no longer the case now or not. Just because one of the people that were there, that was an important part of their lives at the time no longer is there or will be in the future doesn't mean that it never happened. I think it would be way worse to not remember that whatever is happening now, we did have some good times as a family. Whether their mother wants to pretend that it never happened or to change history suddenly and make it seem like it was always "horrible" or "unhappy" they have every right to remember that there WERE fun times, good times over the years..that included their mother. I not going to just bring it up out of the blue but when we are talking about things that we did as a family I'm not going to pretend that she was never there, that wouldn't be fair to them (or their mother for that matter).

I have been very careful about NOT doing the kind of things that many seem to do...always avoiding any mention of the other s like it's some sort of taboo subject, deliberately saying nasty or hurtful things (like I said, what I said to my D today was the closest thing to "bad" that I have said since all this started, and it was a statement of fact, really). The problem I'm having right now is that I DON'T want to do any of that while at the same time deal with the fact that I know that my W is manipulating my D in ways that I never would (she did it in front of me when I was trying to deal with my d14 about going to her mom's everyday. She should have just stayed out of the conversation). The easy thing to do would be to meet her in kind. Start manipulating her on my end. I won't do that, no matter how tempting but at the same time I don't want to just let it happen either.

I really couldn't act any more "detached" from what my W is doing NOW with my D14 than I have been. I actually am detached from what she is doing in her personal life, like I said I don't care unless she's bringing strange men home when my D is there but I don't think that is a problem at this time. The thing I'm having a hard time detaching from is how she is trying to get more in the D than she should. That she is trying to manipulate my D14. That she isn't holding up her end of the "co-parenting" thing and not sharing info that I should have regarding D's school, etc. That unless she gets her way she throws fits. That she thinks she has a right to just come to my home and take what she wants without giving me notice or even asking if it's a good time for me. These things are the things that I just can't seem to not react to when they happen. I do need to find a way to deal with them better, that's for sure.

[Lifes Twists]

Matt,

I don't try to pretend that my wife does not exist. When we talk about past trips, vacations and such I just try and talk in the we/family mode rather than bringing my wife up specifically. If the kids bring her specifically into the conversation I contribute. I just steer clear of bringing her up myself. What I am saying is let the kids bring her up, they will if they want to in regards to good memories. If they don't then don't force it.

[Matt165]

Ok, I got it. Thanks LT. I can see what you are saying there. No need to bring up things that aren't already on the table! Thanks!

[daring]

Hey Matt- catching up on your thread and it sounds like things are still tough.

One thing I can say from my own experience growing up- my parents separated multiple times and stayed that way throughout my teen years.
My mom would talk about my dad frequently,
She would get upset that I wanted a relationship with him, would share details with me about their relationship that were not appropriate for me to know. Even after I got married I had to hide from her that I visited him and his girlfriend with my newborn son. She found out and treated me horribly.
While I know my dad was frustrated with her, he never spoke poorly of her. Even when I was frustrated and complained about her to him, he would say things like " I know you need to help your mom and take care of her". ( of course that wasn't good to say either but at least it wasn't him trying to make me choose sides).

My point in saying all of this is that despite the fact there were issues with both my parents, the fact that my dad stayed so neutral had a profoundly positive impact on me. To this day I have issues with my mother and how she tried to manipulate me and play the victim and use me in the way she did.
It will pay off immensely as she grows and moves out of adolescence if you can keep the focus on you and D14s relationship and nothing to do with your W.
I know it's hard and I have to catch myself sometimes but I've been that kid and I'm so thankful for how my dad handled it.

Just my 2 cents worth...

[Matt165]

Thanks Daring, it does make a difference!
I know from my W's relationship with her mother that it hurt my W when her mom would say bad things about her father (even though, if you knew all the horrible things he did, he deserved almost anything she could have said!) and it really hurt my W. Fact is, my W is using this fact to justify her actions today. It's a big reason why she is so ready to "forgive" her father and she now blames her mothers actions for making the D "worse". She has told me that D "doesn't hurt the kids, it's all in how the parents behave after", which isn't true but because she saw her mother tear down her father she blames her bad relationship with him on HER MOTHER. That's how much one parent talking down the other can cause lifelong problems. In fact her relationship with her dad is the biggest thing she wants to "replay" now that she is in MLC!

It's not always easy when my W is doing awful things and manipulating my D14 but I know that I just can't do it, even if it means my D may actually listen and allow her mothers actions to affect her decisions right now. When we are hurting, it's easy to let ourselves act out. Act like children and use anything that we can find to "hurt" the other person back. But my D means too much to me to use her like that. Her future relationships will already be affected by what is happening now. As her father I have to make sure that I don't make things worse. In fact it's up to me to do all I can to help her through this with the least amt. of pain and hurt. Keeping that in my mind at all times helps make sure I don't do anything that will make things worse!

[Matt165]

Well, it's that time again! Time to start a new topic thread!
I'll see you all in Wife Still in MLC but has now left #4!

Any of you Vets out there, please if you can help me out with a link to this thread on the next, it would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!

[Lifes Twists]

Matt,

You should be able to go to the first page of this topic and the highlite the www.divor... up in the address bar do a right click and scroll to copy. Then go to new topic and right click paste

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2482273#Post2482273