Wonka, Let her go. You've apologized and had several conversations w/her and yes, she's trying to strong arm you into doing something that goes against the grain for you.
You've done all you can do...now let her go. I seriously doubt the friendship will ever be the same because both of you will be uncomfortable and stepping on eggshells when you communicate. Not the best type of friendship if you both can't be open and respect each other's boundaries.
I'm very sorry, but I'm glad you did apologize and have made attempts to keep the communication lines open. Now, it's up to her to figure things out.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
You have offered such wonderful advice to me so I did have a little something to offer up to you. You made a sincere apology and that says a great deal about your character. If Ms. Wonka is *expecting* you to keep apologizing and rehash the past, then that's on her. You were honest and wanted to make amends for some things that occurred during your MLC. However, it doesn't appear she is willing to do the same with her own actions.
Job is right. Key up "Let It Go." I'm super psyched about the NFL too:)
3 kids BD 12/15/13 (IDKIILY. ) Rope dropped Cirque du Soleil style D final 9-9-14 "Some people are born on 3rd base and go through life thinking they hit a triple." Barry Switzer
This must be the day for agreement, because I echo what Job and Georgia said. It seems as though she wants to hold the cards to clearly define your friendship, and chastises you for seeing things differently. That's not the kind of friend I'd want going forward.
I'd probably hand you another cup of coffee and say that you have closure on this R, you've made all attempts at an honest AND sincere apology, it's been accepted, and there is nothing left here for you.
You've grown so much, and it's time to bury the past.
How is life with the hottie girl?
I'm also in your camp of being happy about football. My baseball team svcks horribly (not nearly as much as the owner), and I need something good to look at every weekend. Hockey is another month out too. Plus I do get to watch my D20 and her volleyball team play. You can count on me being plugged in to all her matches when they are streamed. She's in her twilight years, and now a junior, and I want to cherish every moment I have left to watch her play. It's kinda bittersweet.
Wonka, you've got a lot going for you. Surely you have friends who are truly friends that don't have to be the ones to call all the shots? If you were here, I'd definitely be happy to be yours.
Hugs,
Bets
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
I am so sorry to read of your hurt over this. You have been such a source of support and inspiration to us, so we tend to forget that the reason you're here is because of your own troubles.
I am not going to go with the flow and say "Time to let her go..." because that's up to YOU to do when YOU are ready.
Personally, I am tired of people telling me the exact same thing, as though they know what's best for me. What no one seems to understand is that it's not so easily done.
There has to be acceptance, resignation...and that doesn't just "happen". It's hard to make everything line up in a nice, neat way that says: "Okay. I've done it. I've let her go."
If it were that easy, not too many of us would be here. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think a lot of people are responding to the length of time you've been keeping that door open for her in one way or another. You certainly can carry a torch, Woman! That's the stuff that romance novels are made of. It's something most of the population can't even fathom. Consider yourself a loyal, persistent--and stubborn (but in a good way)---- Wonka-Woman.
It's clear from what you've written that having some sort of relationship with the former Ms. Wonka is important to you. You have been hoping to create a mutually satisfying friendship, and perhaps she has been as well.
That's not an impossibility, but it might not look the way either of you planned. (No expectations, right?)
One thing I do see is that you have both been making some effort towards that goal. The fact that she wrote you that email says that she is, on some level, desirous of an ongoing connection with you.
It's hard for you to see that clearly because of the gut-level pain that hit you with OW being named over and over as a person of significance.
That clouded most of the rest of it, I'm afraid, understandably so. But read between the lines and see what else is there.
Just redact those OW-name references with that fat, black Sharpie and read it a few more times... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've been there, with my first love before GUBU.
I admit, there are times I still have a bit of a gut-response over it, and it still hurts. This was almost 30 years ago now.
There is a book I read, The Untethered Soul and it helped me deal with this a lot.
I learned that what I was reacting to was the rejection, more than my former BF and his OW.
That the real issue was growing up as a little smarty-pants with ADD and Asperger's, where rejection was a huge and consistent part of my development and adult life. A lot of pain there, and I had pushed it way down...
Does my situation with GUBU pull all those strings? You betcha.
Perhaps there is something in your life that is making it harder for you to get to a place where seeing or hearing OW's name isn't such a trigger for bad feelings.
Maybe finding out what that something might be would be helpful for you; not in giving up on a friendship with Ms. Wonka, but in being able to handle a friendship with her if OW continues to be a part of the picture. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds like, if you want a R with Ms. Wonka, that OW is going to be a part of that on some level.
You don't have to like it, you don't have to accept it. But it might mean that, unless you find some peace with it, the connection with her won't ever happen.
It will probably always be a source of tension between you, but you can learn to handle it better if you want her in your life.
(Heck, if I can stand there and hear GUBU tell me about OW leaving, and how it is really insignificant, and I can hold it together and not stick an ice-pick in his eyeball, you can suck it up a bit about OW. IF YOU WANT TO.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I get the part about values and ethics, and those are mine, too.
This is where the time factor comes into play.
There has come a point where OW is no longer the OW, she is "THE" woman to Ms. Wonka. (For all we know, OW may consider YOU to be the OW--whoooo-eeee!)
That probably hurts to read, but it's the truth.
So even though she was the AP and all that, it's been long enough that the dynamic has changed and the mindset about that has to change with it if you are to have a R with Ms. Wonka.
She has said "We are a package deal. Take it or leave it."
So which is your choice?
(Here I am. I can't even believe I'm trying to clarify things to YOU. But heck, that's why we're here, right?) -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Values and ethics aside, what's really important to you here?
At this point, are your values being compromised? If so--in what way?
We are always told in DB to ignore the OW/OM as much as possible within certain circumstances and work on being the better option. To keep the friendship going with firm boundaries in place.
What could a friendship look like with OW in the picture--for you? For Ms. Wonka?
Just food for thought... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That said--why aren't you like all my (lesbian) sister's friends???
You know, that "I went on a cruise with my girlfriend, and her ex-girlfriend, and her ex-girlfriend, and her new girlfriend- and we all had a great time!" ????? They share houses together on Cape Cod, for Pete's sake!
I always wondered about that dynamic. Everyone getting together for Christmas dinner and Scorpion Bowls at the Chinese place on New Year's Day. I said that the chances of that happening in straight relationships was slim to none. How do they do it?
My sister explained that since they're in a minority, and there's a smaller pool from which to pull friends and lovers alike, if you like each other and enjoy the company, it makes no sense to cut people out unless they are really destructive or toxic. She said you'd "find yourself pretty lonely if you couldn't be around any of your ex's and their new squeezes."
See where I'm going with this?
How has Ms. Wonka done you wrong once you broke up and how important is it to enforce how she "should" behave with respect to your values and feelings?
I don't mean this to come off harsh, if that's how it sounds.
It's me trying to throw a few ideas out there and see if they resonate. It's easier to see things from the outside looking in, but no one can really know how you feel.
But think about your feelings and how well they are serving your goal of a R with Ms. Wonka. Can they be changed to facilitate that, if it's what you really want?
Or is a friendship with Ms. Wonka conditional in that it must exclude OW? That's your choice, too.
Only you can decide what you want and whether it's worth it. Whether SHE is worth it if it causes pain to you.
If she is, then it will probably be up to you--with your superior people skills and laser-sharp wit, not to mention a candy factory---to facilitate this friendship.
She won't be able to handle it as well as you can, if you choose to do so.
Anyhow, sorry to p*ss you off by skinny-dipping without you!
You shoulda been there! You could have brought some Amaretto... and had I known I would have brought some spears, torches... we could have been warrior women spear-fishing by torchlight in the river.
How cool would that be?
xxxxxoooo
----GGG
Me 54 Him 63 M 23 T 29 0 Kids Funny Farm of Rescues 12/12 OW-- 5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied 9/13 Proof OW: ENDED 2/14 Got D papers on my BD I kicked him out for my sanity 9/14 He wants to "talk"?
On a lighter note, congrats on the new job, and pulling through that day from he!! with your sensibilities intact.
Talk about your trifecta of stressors!
I was feeling overwhelmed just reading about your day. ---------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope you'll be busy enough with the new job to keep your mind busy and on other things for a bit.
Sometimes the best insight comes when we actively STOP thinking about things. At least it does for me.
Hang in there.
You da bomb!
---GGG
Me 54 Him 63 M 23 T 29 0 Kids Funny Farm of Rescues 12/12 OW-- 5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied 9/13 Proof OW: ENDED 2/14 Got D papers on my BD I kicked him out for my sanity 9/14 He wants to "talk"?
Me 54 Him 63 M 23 T 29 0 Kids Funny Farm of Rescues 12/12 OW-- 5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied 9/13 Proof OW: ENDED 2/14 Got D papers on my BD I kicked him out for my sanity 9/14 He wants to "talk"?
Thank you...Job, GB, Bets, and GGG for your responses and thoughts. I appreciate the variety of perspectives you each offered here.
I feel like the ball of a very messy yarn that was pounced on by 10 cats with very, very sharp claws just laying out like a lump in the middle of the area rug with strings going out in every direction.
Oh man...what I would give to arrive at a place of complete, utter indifference toward Ms. Wonka and the freakshow of OW. Oops...did that bleed out of my noggin??!
Speaking of bleeding, you all probably would agree (especially Job and Bets who have been around since time immemorial here) that I've bit my tongue in my interactions/dealings with Ms. Wonka way too many times that blood pretty much literally dripped downward to my chin.
Today, I thought and reflected a bit on Ms. Wonka's email and I struggled with the main questions:
-What type of friendship do I want with her? -What does a mutually supportive and respectful friendship look like to me? -Do I want to invest my time and energy on this friendship, if any?
At this point, I am still sitting on the indignation sofa trying to separate the wheat from the chaff trying to figure out a way to pinpoint and identify the actual emotions while going back to my thoughts that influenced those emotions. As you all know from the greater Spiritual perspective, our thoughts and reactions drive our emotions.
I need more time to sort out them so I can come from a place of calmness and clearheaded before I respond to Ms. Wonka. Like GGG stated here, my emotions and reactions are most certainly clouding my perspective on this latest exchange.
What I most need in the next several days/weeks is to figure out how I can be authentic while remaining true to my core values and principles. How's that helping me? How's that helping Ms. Wonka? How's that helping us?
I don't have clear answers to any of the above questions. Need to do some more digging here.
GGG, I would like to respond to your comment on why I am not like a lot of lesbians who remain best buddies with their exes.
-I am on good terms with several of my former exes -Yes, a lot of lesbians are friends with their exes
I have a theory (or not!). I will add my thoughts at the end.
Generally, women tend to the be the ones who try to smooth things over coming from a place of compromise, compassion, and cooperation in the "best" interests of all involved.
Many lesbians remain friends with their exes because they've worked past their issues and transitioned fairly well into friendship.
Now for my thoughts on why I differ a bit with Ms. Wonka is because of the three main factors:
-We had a very deep, loving bond as a couple who were pretty much heavily invested in the relationship---puppy parents, open & accepting families surrounded us with love, bought a house and been together for 10 years
-I was pretty devastated after witnessing some of the stuff that Ms. Wonka and OW did in conducting their A
-With my exes, I was never really "in love" with them so the transition was easier for me and them. The longest relationship I had with my exes was 2 years at the most. Beside that...I was a commitment-phobic so I never really allowed them close to me.
Just redact those OW-name references with that fat, black Sharpie and read it a few more times..
You've been paying attention to some of my sprinkled comments about whipping out the Sharpie pen, eh? That's a good student!
My Girl Posse...I wanted to circle back and comment to each one of you individually here. Job: I seriously doubt the friendship will ever be the same because both of you will be uncomfortable and stepping on eggshells when you communicate. Not the best type of friendship if you both can't be open and respect each other's boundaries.
Good gosh! No, it will NEVER be the same. It's forever altered. Being open and respecting each other's boundaries will be the key deciding factor for me. That is something that I really need to mull over some more.
GB:If Ms. Wonka is *expecting* you to keep apologizing and rehash the past, then that's on her. You were honest and wanted to make amends for some things that occurred during your MLC. However, it doesn't appear she is willing to do the same with her own actions.
I doubt that Ms. Wonka is expecting me to keep apologizing and/or rehashing the past. I get the sense that she just wants to forget it and leave the past squarely in the past. As for the last bolded statement....that is the one question that I'm struggling at the moment.
Which brings me to an excellent comment that Bug made here a week or so ago about "not hanging on the NEED to get an apology" or "ensuring that our stories line up." Dunno. Hmmmmm...gee, it'd sure be nice to get an apology from Ms. Wonka as well. Not sure if she's able to display this insight or perception of how her actions have hurt me.
Bets:This must be the day for agreement, because I echo what Job and Georgia said. It seems as though she wants to hold the cards to clearly define your friendship, and chastises you for seeing things differently. That's not the kind of friend I'd want going forward.
I think you've captured the essence of this whole matter quite eloquently and succinctly for everyone to see here. What I am contemplating here is giving her one other chance by re-stating my boundary and if she crosses it again with disrespect and insensitivity, then that will be it for me. As you might have read from our convos from back in March, we clearly stated that we may stumble at times and try our best in trying to figure out how/what our friendship is supposed to look like.
I mean...we essentially had no communication for nearly 10 years. Yeah, there'll be some rough bumps here and there. We'll see how it all unfolds, if at all.
BTW...the hottie girl and I are going well. Of course, this stuff from Ms. Wonka is making me a bit annoyed. Go away, willya and leave me in peace.
GGG:I think a lot of people are responding to the length of time you've been keeping that door open for her in one way or another.
Perhaps...or not. That is for others to decide and clarify.
You certainly can carry a torch, Woman! That's the stuff that romance novels are made of. It's something most of the population can't even fathom.
You and Linda (a former poster here)...will be the silly burr on my side over this "romance novel" starry-eyed notions!!! I can tell you without any doubt that Fabio isn't gracing on my book cover. Perish that thought!!
(Heck, if I can stand there and hear GUBU tell me about OW leaving, and how it is really insignificant, and I can hold it together and not stick an ice-pick in his eyeball, you can suck it up a bit about OW. IF YOU WANT TO.)
That's the beauty of having choices...no? I want to do this on MY own terms and not have stuff shoved in my face. I can be pretty headstrong when I feel, sense, see, or hear people trying to get me to do something that I am NOT COMFORTABLE with at all.
As for the rest of your questions, I find it interesting that I contemplated over them today before logging on here tonight. So instead of going over your questions one-by-one, I think I've pretty much covered them in my previous posts. Subject to further evolution.
And I never, not once, felt that you were being harsh at all.
A variety of perspectives and insights is what I had hoped for when I did the long and detailed "debrief". And I got A WHOLE LOT more back...which I sincerely appreciate from you guys.
Wonka, I think you are doing the right thing by sitting on the sofa and thinking about things. Sometimes when we don't have the answers or know what to do, it is best to just sit quietly and allow the answers to come when they are ready.
I am very sorry about how things have been w/the former Mrs. Wonka. I do hope that someday she will come to realize what a real jewel you are and what she's lost.
Take care of yourself.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
