Not sure what to do

[MrBond]

Cnfused,

Sure I'll take a look at your posts.

For the record, for some people it takes awhile to understand their role in things. Everyone who comes here thinks it's their spouses' fault for leaving them, that they are the ones with the problem, etc.

But if you look at EVERY M counseling book/site, you'll see that they all say the same thing... look internally first. People don't want to do that because of pride and mostly FEAR. They are afraid of what they might see.

If you learn to swallow your pride and look at yourself and your actions honestly, you'll not only have a chance to save your M, but most importantly, become a stronger person in the end.

[Bob1967]

I am working on me.

I have been listening to everything I am being told. I am reading books, watching videos and even volunteering at my church.

I am trying to follow the 37 rules of behavior. I don’t call her, encourage her, buy her gifts, schedule dates, pursue her, talk about the future, etc., etc., etc.

She tried to engage in an argument when I offered to take care of the dog while she was on a business trip.

I deflected and vented on this web site---not to her.

[MrBond]

"I have been listening to everything I am being told. I am reading books, watching videos and even volunteering at my church."

All are good, however those actions don't solve your core problem which landed you here in the first place.

[sandi2]

I can't remember if you are seeing an IC. Have you ever talked to one about how to communicate with others (especially your W)! Read any material on the subject?

Bob, I don't know if you have a serious anger problem or if it's just her that triggers your anger. If you are seeing an IC, I hope you will get advice in how to manage those reactions to her.

If you don't have an IC, I hope you will consider having some sessions for those two issues, especially. Maybe someone here can offer information in where to turn for solutions. I hope 25yrs will come by and make suggestions.

[Bob1967]

I am seeing a therapist. I've been seeing her since June 2013. I also see my priest.

I swear I don't have an anger problem. I don't get angry. I don't lose my tempter. I dislike anger. I dislike loudness.

This is why I disengage when my wife begins yelling. I find her terrifying when she starts screaming.

When I moved back home last August I was so terrified of her I locked the basement door every night.

I realize now I overreacted because she only came to the basement twice the entire year I lived in the house.

But the fear is real to me. If I was a woman no one would have a problem with this.

My wife is terrifying when she gets angry. She yells and I can't get her to calm down.

The first marriage counselor took me to the side and told to read the book "Stop Walking on Eggshells." It was an eye opener. It was like the author knew my wife.

I felt safe with the first marriage counselor until our third session.

At the third session he told my wife he suggested the book, "Stop Walking on Eggshells" to me.

Then he apologized to my wife!!! He told her he had "made a bad call" which "happens sometimes."

She asked what the book was about and he said borderline personalities. Then he proceeds to tell her he "got it wrong" and asked her to forgive him.

I'm not going to rehash our time with the first marriage counselor. But, I don't think he got it wrong. I think my wife has borderline personality disorder.

I think this guy changed his mind because he got the hots for my wife.

She did a lot of things outlined in the book "Stop Walking on Eggshells."

I am trying to change. But I don't know what to do. I honestly believe she is mentally ill. She flies into terrifying rages. This cannot be normal.

Before I left last June I told her she needed mental health counseling. This suggestion enraged her. Looking back I can understand why. I would say she needed mental health counseling during an argument--so it probably sounded like I was name calling.

Later I learned she had been seeing a counselor since December 2012. She hadn't told me. She said she didn't tell me because she felt I was judgmental.

I don’t think the counseling has helped. She is not getting better. She can’t control her tempter.

Every conversation about our relationship in the last 18 months has dissolved into an argument. Every one. And it is her fault. She is the one who starts to yell. She will admit this.

I would literally listen to her verbally assault me for hours until she wore herself out and said something like, “I can see this isn’t getting us anywhere.” And then I go to bed until the next attack.

I kept hoping if I listened to her long enough she would feel validated. But it didn’t work. It just got her angrier. The longer she talked the more “faults” she found with me. And when I agreed her response was, “I don’t want you to agree with me just to agree with me.”

Oh for goodness sakes! How do you resolve anything?

This is why I stay silent. Sure, I hate living in a one bedroom apartment. I want to go home. But I don’t want to go back home to that. I hate living like that.

What I don't understand is why she didn't hate living like that.

I want peace. I try to have peace. I don’t yell at her. I talk to her about her day. I am interested in what she does and what she thinks. I cook the meals. I mow the lawn. I put money in the accounts. I don’t go drinking with my buddies.

I just don’t want to discuss “us” any more. Does that make sense?

[MrBond]

"I'm not going to rehash our time with the first marriage counselor. But, I don't think he got it wrong. I think my wife has borderline personality disorder."

You're not the C. He has had time with both of you. Have you ever asked him WHY he didn't think so?

"I think this guy changed his mind because he got the hots for my wife."

It seems like when you disagree with someone you say something negative. That's just what I see.

"She did a lot of things outlined in the book "Stop Walking on Eggshells."

From how you handle conflict, I could say that you did alot of things in those books as well. But that doesn't make you suffer from a certain disorder.

"I am trying to change. But I don't know what to do. I honestly believe she is mentally ill. She flies into terrifying rages. This cannot be normal."

You know, your whole post was about what was wrong with your W. But you've never really described what you've done to communicate better with her. A conflict comes up, you shut down because you "know" she's going to yell. She yells because you shut down. It seems like it's the both of you.

"Before I left last June I told her she needed mental health counseling. This suggestion enraged her. Looking back I can understand why. I would say she needed mental health counseling during an argument--so it probably sounded like I was name calling."

You pretty much called her "crazy". Of course, that would make anyone upset. Seriously, have you ever thought that it was just because you two couldn't communicate correctly?

"Later I learned she had been seeing a counselor since December 2012. She hadn't told me. She said she didn't tell me because she felt I was judgmental."

And you were.

"I don’t think the counseling has helped. She is not getting better. She can’t control her tempter."

Have you ever gone to her C with her? Does she yell at anyone else? If she doesn't, then it's not a "her" problem... it's a M problem.

"Every conversation about our relationship in the last 18 months has dissolved into an argument. Every one. And it is her fault. She is the one who starts to yell. She will admit this."

This is not about her yelling. Have you ever asked her why she yells? It really does sound like frustration from her part because you don't seem to understand what she's trying to tell you and you shut down.

You're doing it now in your posts to those of us posting to you so I can see where she's coming from to a degree.

Look, the bottom line is that if you want to change the dynamic, then you're going to have to be the one to take the first step. All you do is complain about your W and her anger which you have no control over. You can only control yourself. All of your 180s, GAL, etc. don't help the basic problem you have in your relationship. You don't communicate with your W correctly. And by correctly I mean the way the SHE processes understanding.

Rather than running away or shutting down, after she "rants", just tell her that you're interested in what she has to say and are there to listen. But say it in a manner that's calm and cool and look her dead in the eyes when you say that. THAT would be a 180.

[sandi2]

Okay. Has she ever carried the verbal into physical attacks?

I don't think the answer is to let her continue screaming, hoping to wear her down. You may or may not be the root cause of all her issues, but from your description she takes it out on you. Have you ever seen her yell and scream at others? (I apologize if you've mentioned this already.)

Personally, I would have had to meet alone with that counselor later to get an explanation of his reversed opinion, but that's just me.

[Bob1967]

No my wife doesn’t yell at others. She has a sarcastic and biting tongue when she gets angry. It makes me cringe.

She can be very unemotional. She was being bullied by someone at work for an entire year. We were at a social event and the bully arrived. The bully decided to sit at our table and then proceeded to openly shun my wife and alienate her from the people at the table. My wife graciously left the table. She was gone about 20 minutes. When she returned she asked if we could leave. My wife left without a scene while the bully continued to eye roll and mock her.

Has my wife been physically violent to me?

Once. In the winter of 2012, when my wife was being bullied she came home from work angry. She said she needed to vent and was going to throw some stuff. She said I could leave or I could stay in the room but she was going to throw some stuff. This was the only time I saw her be physically violent before June 2013.

After June 2013 my wife has slapped me across the arm twice. Pushed me once. And threw the remote control of the television set twice.

So yes. She has carried out physical attacks.

Before June 2013 we could have a civil conversation.

After June 2013 it is literally impossible. Even in “normal conversations” eventually she would ask about the status of our relationship and I would give the “wrong” answer. The next I knew she was having a screaming fit or sobbing uncontrollably—telling me I wrecked our lives.

I know I was causing her frustration but I didn’t (and still don’t) know what to do.

On May 29 I sent my wife an email telling her I would always regret leaving. It was wrong. I said things leading up to my leaving were not handled correctly by me and I did something I will regret the rest of my life.

I said I was truly sorry. I said I was sorry about how I had lashed out verbally. I hate it when it happens to me, so doing it to others is inexcusable.

I also apologized for changing the passwords on my computer. I said I was frustrated because I felt it was an invasion of privacy. I said I realized since I am married there is no such thing as privacy. I lost this perspective and it was wrong. I offered her all the passwords and the actual computer. I said she could keep the computer and have the harddrive examined for deleted stuff,

I said I was sorry I never stood up for her. I said I tried to the best of my abilities, but it is a trait I don't really have much of. I don't do a good job standing up for myself so I did a worse job standing up for her. I said she was the victim of my weakness. I said, on the flip side I was the beneficiary of her strength.

I also apologized on my lack of empathy. I said I was frustrated because I did such a terrible job of talking to her. I didn’t understand why I couldn’t get us out of the circle we kept getting into. I said I was crushed and saddened that I had hurt her and - as terrible as it sounds I was being me during the marriage and I thought that was good - but it ended up being very hurtful for her.

Finally, I said I knew I did a terrible job of recognizing my weaknesses.

The email just made her sad. She still asked me to leave.

The “Walking on Eggshells” thing: The counselor said he diagnosed her with borderline personality because she was near hysteria when he met her. This combined with her childhood (she was abandoned at 14) and my description of her mood swings and rages fit the profile.

He said he was wrong because he my wife didn’t use anger for control. He said she usually gave me the option to leave the room before she raged. He felt her hysteria was due to trauma because of the way I left. He said he originally felt her hysteria was “over the top” and “designed to manipulate” his emotions to get him “on her side” during the counseling sessions.

I did meet with my wife’s therapist. It was at my wife’s suggestion.

My wife said it was to “help her learn to communicate better with me.”

It was in March 2013. My wife made the following offer: I could meet with her therapist and speak uninterrupted for the entire hour. My wife would not speak during the session. She would sit outside of my vision so she could not influence anything I said with body language.

I thought this was a great idea so I met with her therapist. It turns out it was a set up.

At the end of the meeting the counselor suggested I had a “failed strategy” because I wanted to have a friendship instead of moving back into the bedroom. I told him friendship was my comfort level.

After meeting with her therapist my wife gave me an ultimatum: Either I fully commit to the marriage and develop a plan to move our marriage forward or move out.

I thought my email on May 29 showed my commitment but she still told me to leave.

I know it sounds like I blame my wife for everything but I am so frustrated I don’t know what to do.

According to my wife I did everything possible to sabotage our marriage the last two months. She said I dared her to go through with her ultimatum.

I swear I didn’t. You can see by the email I sent on May 29, I was trying to save my marriage.

Her response:

“You spent all year frustrated with me because I am completely and forever traumatized from the events of June 2. Yet you have no problem justifying your victim status from events that occurred prior to June 2. I understand how much I have hurt you. My God. I will be forever, painfully reminded of the pain you felt for the rest of my life. Make no mistake. You have beaten your point in me. You could not have beaten this point in me any more clearer than if you had taken your fists and pounded me until I was black and blue, and broke every bone in my body, and left as a bloody pulp on the side of the road. Your hurt and your pain will be a part of my life forever. So don't ever think that I will ever minimize it. I see your pain as big and as great as you see it. You have forced me see it as big and great as it is. It has become the biggest...grandest thing in my life. There was a time the biggest...grandest thing in my life was my marriage. But you wanted your hurt to take center stage in my life and you did everything to make sure that your hurt got the attention it deserved. Well, I want to reassure you that your hurt became bigger and grander than our marriage ever was. Because our marriage only lasted 13 years. But the memory from the consequences that I have suffered from the hurt that I caused you will last the rest of my life and the rest of your life. That makes it the most important thing to come out of our marriage. I wanted my marriage. You wanted your hurt. Your hurt won.”

So when I say I don’t know what to do---I really don’t know what to do.

I thought I changed the dynamic on May 29. And I guess I did because she told me to move out.

I came home every night. I didn’t cheat on my wife. I paid my bills. I didn’t drink. I listened to her when she talked about her problems. I even cooked dinner every night.

But I couldn’t take her yelling. I just couldn’t take it. The more she yells the more I run. Everyone says no one should live like that. Emotional abuse is wrong.

I listen to what you tell me. I really do. I feel like the biggest idiot in the world because I know I am missing something.

What am I missing? What is it everyone knows that I am missing?

[Maybell]

Read over her letter again from her perspective. Put aside everything else you think you know and read that letter as though it was written by someone you don't know to someone you don't know. Read it as a true statement, reading only the words on the page, no subtext, no outside references.

Then come back and say what you read.

I am sorry you're here.

[Bob1967]

I see it from her perspective. She is upset because I can't get over my hurt. It frustrates her. She believes my hurt feelings have destroyed our marriage.

She is right it has. The way I handle my pain is poor. I blame her when I am in pain. I didn’t have emotional pain until I met her.

I feel this problem has an easy solution: She can stop emotionally abusing me.

We want he same thing.

We both want to be married. We are not on opposite sides.

I don't understand why we can't work together on a solution.