Stimulus-Response: The Experiment Continues

[GoatGal]

Nitty,


It just goes to show you the depth of their screwed up thinking.

My H always vented about other people who cheated on their spouses, particularly males who cheated on his female co-workers/friends.
He ALWAYS also said that no matter what:

"You end your relationship before you start a new one. That's just how it's done."
"Never SH*T where you eat!" (Don't ever mess around at work.)
"If you ever cheated on me, I would divorce you and never look back."

He had nothing but awful things to say about the cheaters, how those women were gems, that they were dogs, had no loyalty, didn't know how good they had it, etc., etc., etc....

Of course, our Hs are SPECIAL! The rules do not apply to these special people!

They are operating under unique circumstances which make it all OK.
-----------------------------------------------

Gubu will not speak to any of his male friends, and hasn't since this happened.

I guess because they are up his butt trying to tell him that he is insane, that Goat Gal is the best thing that ever happened to him and he's the luckiest guy in the world.
They see me for who I am, and think he has lost his marbles.

I've run into a few of them since this started, and since the divorce notice was published in the paper.

They called me, asking what was up? What was GUBU thinking?
I said: "Why don't you ask HIM?"
And they have continually said: "He will not return our calls."

They check up on me from time to time (nice) and continue to say the same.
GUBU will not talk to them.
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These guys are all his age, all divorced at least once, some more than once.
They know what they're talking about.

They see he's making a mess of things--but again:
In GUBU's mind---HE is "SPECIAL".

I ran into one guy at the veterinarian's office a few weeks ago.
He asked how it was going, ended up with me in tears (didn't help that I was there with yet another old dog who I ended up putting to sleep a week later. Alone. Again.)

He hugged me and said:
'MY GOD! You are so thin... are you sure you're OK? Does he KNOW you are like this?"
"I'm about ready to go punch GUBU in the mouth and knock some sense into him. I don't know how he can do this to you. You don't deserve it, not one bit."


I just asked him please not to say anything to GUBU, that he wouldn't hear it anyway, he'd think I was talking ill of him, and besides, he thinks my pain and weight loss are just "drama" to make him feel "guilty".
(At least that's what he's said in the past.)
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I think perhaps now he's starting to see it differently, but that would be an expectation, and you know what we DBers say about THOSE.

GUBU only talks to people who support his decision.
They can support it because they only know his side and THEY DON'T KNOW ME.
And they are not in a position to offer advice: i.e.: HIS EMPLOYEES.
There is not ONE PERSON who knows ME at all who thinks he is doing anything close to rational!


---GGG

[GoatGal]

EXPERIMENT UPDATE:

To date, my adapted strategy has been working.
I see movement to the "goaty" side of the Petrie dish!
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Last night we exchanged a long series of texts which he initiated.
He talked about being "sad", amid stuff about the animals, projects, etc.

I just validated, stayed upbeat and supportive.
I tried to end first, but I saw he sent me a text in the middle of the night that I missed.

"Peace Out".

OK, so ignoring the fact that this is weird stuff for GUBU to be saying, I'm looking at the fact that it was in the dead of night, and he was reaching out TO ME.

Unfortunately, I keep my phone on silent at night because I have so much trouble sleeping...
--------------------------------

But first thing this morning I responded, saying that I just got the text... and just some chitchat about more estimates for the trees, etc.

Just keeping the lines open.
------------------------

Tonight he's been here doing the animals, and even though sometimes it's draining, I made the effort to be out briefly where he could see me.

I immediately get this perky "Hello!"... then we're talking about the trees, etc.
Just neighborly stuff.

(I, by the way, am looking like super cute GoalGal in cutoffs and tank again...
Nah... I always work around the farm like this!!!! I swear I feel like a Playboy centerfold from 1966. With clothes on.
Anyhow, I KNOW he notices. )

Then he goes to his truck and brings me a cold beer (this is his "peace offering" and has always been a good sign.)

After declining to open it with his teeth, he found an opener for me and we drank our beers while watching the chickens.

I made sure to beat a quick exit, but this time, PER THE FABULOUS MS. WONKA, I said in a way that wasn't shutting him down:
"I've got to get back in and see to our aging blind pups... they're probably ponging off the walls while I'm out here. Thanks for the brew, talk to ya later!
Oh, and I'll let you know when I hear about the other tree estimates."



Very upbeat!

YAY ME!

I think my strategy is now better tailored to my sitch.
It also helped reading that Starsky said that "talking to him about work" is NOT PURSUING.
"Fishing" for info or using work questions as an excuse to be in touch is not the same thing.

I feel better knowing that being in touch, being friendly--is NOT PURSUIT.

----GGG
Keeping it real.

[Nitty]

OMG, GoatGal. Switch "GUBU" for Mr. Gritty. I could've written every word you wrote. They are twins.

They have the same friends, too. (Well, um, HAD the same friends.) Mr. Gritty won't return his family's calls, either. He surrounds himself with a younger crowd now, one that likes to party.

You and I are the same age, too.

About the reworked strategy: I was reading on Raine's thread about how at one crucial point in her journey she took a leap of faith and did something that was definitely not DB. And it worked.

She said we know our spouses better than anyone else, and must follow our intuition.

And is it possible... for over 50s, the rules might be a little different?

I don't know. But no matter. I say go, girl, follow that intuition. If it's working, it's working. MWD even says to "monitor results" and that's what you're doing. So YAY.

[GoatGal]

Yeah well...
I got the text that he won't be here Friday.
No reason.
He always wants to be here on the weekends, this is the first one where he hasn't been all over me about staying here.

Hmmmm.

Do you see me bouncing around????

That's me:

JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS!

(He has a "date" is foremost on that list. Arrrggg..)

I feel like I get dumped on when he just announces he won't be coming to do chores and I have to pick up the slack.

I feel it's disrespectful.

Not sure how to handle this without creating negativity, pressure, or seeming controlling.
It's not a huge deal, but this bothers me because I feel stuck.

Now, if I knew it was work/therapy, I would bend over backwards to help.
But I'm not the built-in petsitter for his social life without me!!

I'll have to think about it.

-----GGG

[GoatGal]

Here's the email I DID NOT SEND:


"GUBU,

Of course you know that I will happily cover for work/medical issues on short notice, and I have cut you a lot of slack without complaint for those reasons and others.

Now I feel like you are taking me for granted and I will not allow that.

It is disrespectful to me and takes advantage of my current "demoted" status.
It assumes that since I am trapped here, I am not in a position to refuse.

You have every right to have a social life but I will not allow it to take precedence over my own.

I am alone almost constantly, have very little human contact, and I need to be around people to be healthy.
That is non-negotiable.

I don't think it's much to ask to check to be sure I'm available before you make plans, especially on the weekends.

I respect you enough to ask you if you are available.
I expect the same in return.

---GGG"

[BrightFuture]

I was only thinking about the difference between ending a relationship for the "right" reasons:
* impossible long-term compatibility: personality/values/temperament
* different goals for the future: children, religion, money, family, location, employment, lifestyle
* real deal-breakers, abuse, neglect, serial infidelity, addiction, violence

I could list location, employment, lifestyle as the reasons for my H to bail out on me.

As opposed to:
"I'm not IN LOVE with you any more/we've grown apart/I have OW/OM."

Well this is too, except he didn’t have OW.

As for your H, I have had others end relationships with me, and I have seen that cold, door closing behavior. The eyes get dead: "it's over", it's clear that it's final and that's that.

For some men, that's how they have to do it.
Serve it to you ICE COLD.
Because they need to harden their hearts to hurt you.
It's not ABOUT hurting you or getting even, or cake-eating, or making YOU pay. It's just time to cut losses and move on.

And you just described my H again.

Now, I’m sure there is an internal conflict. After all we were together for 17 years.
And I get the same from my friends and family too, that there is nothing that would make H change his mind (he convinced our friends about that) and I just should move on like he did.
I hope you are right about him going nuts internally. He is one of these calculating types, and if he quits something, he does it cold turkey way. I think he miscalculated this one a bit though.

Sorry for rumbling.

I think it is good that you didn’t send the e-mail. I know how what is going on through your mind, I’ve been there. I call it spinning. Who knows why he doesn’t want to come this weekend. It might not what you are thinking. He might need some time for himself. You know how much we talk on this board about them pulling away after some “closeness”. Two steps forward, one step back. This is what might be happening here.

[GoatGal]

"CUE 2 x 4s! I'm off the deep end this morning, spinning in a dive worthy of the Olympics, but actively NOT acting on it!"

Bright,

Rumbling is fine.

I woke up that way.

Telling myself a million reasons why GUBU might not be stepping off further down the tunnel by actually trying to start "dating" to find a "serious relationship' while he is actively NOT DEALING with all his issues, and then there's ME, of course.
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I can't wrap my head around how he can be thinking this way.
Dating sites? Viagra? WTF?
He's 63, lying about his age... his situation. It makes me sick.

Even if he wanted to be rid of me--and having a real relationship was at the core of the "problem" in the beginning---what the heck is up with trying to find a replacement for me while I'm still here?
How on earth does he think it will be any different?

He's still HIM. He still has the same problems, and as far as I can tell, has done absolutely nothing to address them.
Wherever you go--there you are! Nothing is going to change.
There IS no magic person.
And yes, I know I need to let him find that out on his own, hopefully before he makes someone sick, or brings home another nasty STD.

I can't take any more of this today.
Today I am ready to call my Lawyer and ask:
"Where do I sign to get off this sick roller-coaster?"

He continues to search OUTSIDE for solutions to problems which can only be addressed INSIDE. This frustrates me to no end!!!!!

The problem isn't ME. It hurts that he seems to think that he will solve things by being with the "right" person. Like I'm a piece of garbage; the "WRONG" person for all these years.

How can he feel that way about me? I have done NOTHING WRONG.
No deal-breakers, nothing rational.
This rejection of ME, the ME I gave completely, honestly.
Well, it cuts to the core.
Most days I can handle it pretty well, today--not so much.

Maybe there's some of that going around right now.
---------------------------------------------------

I get that deep therapy is scary, but I don't respect the cowardly approach where you just pretend that nothing is wrong and stick your head in the sand.
I see him as weak and fearful for not handling it like a man.

I don't respect him, and actively dislike him at the moment.
Yet his behavior can still hurt me, even if it's only in my imagination!

DETACH===DETACH+++DETACH****


Facing your demons is what being a man is about; doing the RIGHT thing even when you don't feel like it.

That's being an ADULT.

It's what I TRY TO DO EVERY DAY.
I don't always succeed, but it's what I aim for.
------------------------------

And I can't get past the fact that this means he plans to actively HARM other women, which is unavoidable.
He is lying to them... among other things.

He knows he can transmit the Hep C, that he has hurt the last two women he's been involved with emotionally, ruined two marriages... both of us are a shadow of our former selves.
Yet he goes on his merry way, looking for the next VICTIM with whom to play out his fantasy script.

I think he just doesn't care about ANYBODY but himself.

This is so unlike the man I knew.

It really, really worries me.

He's pretending that someone "new" who doesn't know him will "fix" what's wrong.
And it won't.

But he won't learn that until he's hurt other people, and me, even more than he already has.


I wish there was a way I could STOP THIS FROM HAPPENING, to force him to get treatment... notify people to avoid him like the plague.

There is going to be some needy, lonely fool who he will take advantage of just like he did the last one.

I realize that concerns me as much as him continuing to act like I'm just a throwaway.

It's like our M is a disposable diaper.
He filled it with poop, and when it really started to stink, he just threw it out of the car...

Just get clean one and start over, right?


(Sorry for the gross visual, but I see people do that all the time.

"Littering???"
"No..."
"Just can't have it stinking up my vehicle while I look for a trash can.")


Anyhow.

I'm not disposable, but I guess I'll find out if I'm recyclable.

----GGG


...Pissed off since I opened my eyes this morning and trying to talk myself down from hating his stupid, Amoeba guts.
The lying, cowardly, scrawny, pot-bellied, wrinkly, pathetic piece of old man that he is.
No, he's no catch right now.
But In his mind, he THINKS he is.
He is great at putting on the mask of confidence.

I just hope they can see through it and ask the right questions to weed him out...

Who would want him? Someone dumb enough to not protect herself by finding out who he REALLY is.
Someone who will fulfill his fantasies as the last one did, because she wanted him to "love her" and so basically did whatever he wanted and didn't ask for much of anything in return.
So--not like a "serious" relationship.
But he thought this was a "serious R" with the former OW!!! He was ready to throw me under the bus for it, even though later when he came to his senses he said it was "stupid".

But who would want him now?
I don't. Not like this.
But the "right" person will take anyone who gives her the attention she craves. And he will lead them to believe he has bags of money, which he doesn't.
Our bills and debt for the house are so high there is not much left over.
After divorce, he'll be lucky to keep the house...


The sad fact is, I think this is all based in the fact that he is lonely, that he is unable to get his own place, push the D through, or do anything until he knows he has SOMEONE so he won't be alone.

That's what he's waiting on. When he finds that, he will push me away even more...
I'm not the someone he wants, I'm wise to him, and he's damaged me and our M.. so anyone else will do.
After all, it's not about them, it's about what he wants and what he needs.

YES. I AM RANTING. I NEED TO GET THIS OUT TODAY.
I AM FED UP AND I'D LIKE TO PROCESS HIM INTO DOGGY CHOW RIGHT NOW.

[job]

GG,
It's good to rant and get the anger and frustration out of your system...but you have to understand that even if he's 63, he's still trying to find himself, i.e., ordering Viagra and on dating sites. Yes, many of them do this because they are afraid of getting old and want to prove to themselves that they've still got it. They really do have some inner issues that none of us can understand or fix. It takes time for them to work thru those issues and no, you will not always see them working on themselves because much of the problem is within. There are no bruises, cuts or scrapes to indicate the healing process. We just have to learn to sit back and allow the man above to heal them from within. Healing is taking place all of the time.

They do see us and the relationship as the "problem". Why? Because we are part of the past that he thinks was the issue. Until he finishes up his cheeseless tunnel work, he won't begin to understand that you and the relationship were not the problem. Yes, he's blind as a bat and is hitting walls all over the place running and trying new things. Hopefully he'll eventually hit that one wall that will knock him back into a sensible individual, but it's going to take a long time to find that wall.

Trust me, I know and remember how I felt many years ago when my xh was out there acting out. Bottom line, your man has to go back to the age where he was emotionally stunted so that he can grow up. Apparently he didn't navigate his quarterly crisis situations very well and now he's facing the big MLC.

Find plenty of physical things you can take your frustration out on today. You need to get it out there and then let it go. You'll feel so much better when you've released all of that anger.

[Wonka]

GGG,

I got the text that he won't be here Friday.
No reason.

That got you spinning? Boy, he has that MUCH effect on you. How is it any different than you telling him that you won't be available on, say, a Saturday.

Based on what you report before, H has mostly sat home watching TV and drinking beer. It is the likely scenario. I'm thinking he is needing a break from you as he is doing the distancing-pursuing dance. MLCers, when they feel too close to the LBS, retreat.

It's as simple as that.

Remember to jot that in your lab notes.

[GoatGal]

Mr.Bond/Starksy: You're the Boundaries Guys!
I WANT to try and shape his behavior without words to enforce my boundaries.

I want to get my point across that I will not be dumped on with extra chores without him asking if I'm free to do so.
It's disrespectful and takes advantage of my stay-at-home status.
I feel it's a form of bullying:
He pays the bills, so in HIS mind, I'm his employee.

I have to be careful here not to play it wrong.
In other words, I am NOT Willing to do his chores so he can go out on dates!

But I can't let him know that I have the intel I do about the dating site/viagra.
Or he will shut that down...


I don't know how to accomplish this without saying so:
And words don't work very well.

I really just want to go completely dark when he does this, just stating he "won't be there" with no explanation or asking if I'm available.

Just not speak to him or respond, hoping he'll "get" that I'm p*ssed.

But that seems childish and also sends the message that he KNOWs he was able to push my buttons.
(Part of what this is all about. Him exerting power over me in the few ways he can. I HATE IT! I ABSOLUTELY HATE IT!!!)

I could use some specific advice here...

---GGG