Not sure what to do

[sandi2]

(Continuing from my last post)

It's strange how we begin to see things differently after M. B/c before M, I saw my H as being the "strong silent type". After M I realized he was just didn't have anything to say....and was passive. His family, on the other hand, were all very outspoken. He was the only one who never seem to express his feelings or opinion.

I was only 18 when we M and I won't go into all the details, but things were not good. I was not mature enough to deal with all that came crashing down on us. Right off the bat my feelings were hurt b/c of something that was said by his mother to him (behind my back and in front of the other family members)and he didn't come to my rescue. No defense, no protection, no speaking up or standing up to his mother or any other family member who said something down through the years. They were a large family who gathered throughout the week (some of them met daily to discuss everyone's business).

So anyway, that was the beginning of what would be decades of resentment on my part, which led to other problems. I found it very difficult at times to be sexually interested in a man who would allow his family to talk about his W in his presence and him not speak up on her behalf. My hurt by the things they would say turned to anger...and then directed at him.

I grieved for the young man I fell in love with. I honestly cried and yearned for him b/c he simply was gone. But I believe my H grieved for that sweet 18 yr old bride he M. She died!! In her place was something that must have resembled a shrew. I hope that's not how he saw me, but IDK.

You see, I felt so betrayed and alone. Not only b/c he didn't stand up for me, but b/c he never validated my feelings! Heck, he wouldn't look at me when I would try to tell him how upset I was. With each new offense, I would let him know how hurt or angry I was. When he didn't give any response, I felt even worse. No protection, no defense, no response, and no validation.

Then I began to criticize him. I thought I was "explaining" how I felt in our MR, but I know it was heard as criticism....and it was. I wanted my H to value me most of all. And I'm sure He wanted me to respect him. But neither was happening.

We have had a lot of struggles down through the years. The worst came seven years ago when I met OM on line. I was much like you described about your W and her faithfulness to God, Church, family, etc. So I understand how it can happen. It all goes back to those emotional needs we have.

I would plead with anyone to learn how/what to do to change and improve themselves in order to have a better M. Resentment and stubbornness are killers in a M! Waiting for the other S to make the first move will deteriorate your love for each other.

It is not always easy to face our S and admit our wrongs. Lord knows I have too much pride! It took me a long time before I would apologize for my A. I was angry at my H and felt that our unhappy M for all those decades drove me to have an A. (I am not saying I was right....only what I felt.) Truth was, both of us broke down the relationship. He couldn't be emotionally intimate...and it affected me in being physically intimate. But I will always believe it started b/c I never felt that I was valued above everyone else in his life.

[Bob1967]

I really listened to what you said and decided to take the first step to opening the lines of communication.

My wife is going on a business trip and I was supposed to watch the dog while she was gone. But she hasn’t contacted me since I told her I filed for legal separation. After reading your posts I sent her this text at 8:30 this morning:

Me: I am scheduled to look after the dog this week. I have it starting on my calendar tomorrow through Thursday. I will come over and feed him and play with him. If you would like me to do anything else around the house just let me know.

Wife (at 9:30): Thank you for the offer but it will not be necessary. My travel plans changed. I am leaving Wednesday returning Friday. He will be fine. I have someone else looking after him.

Me (immediate response): I really have no problem in looking after him on Wed and Thursday. Just let me know.

She didn’t respond to my text. I am so hurt by her reply. I hoped this would open the lines of communication. But I also really wanted to see the dog and spend time at my home.

I dropped the separation papers off at the house with a note that said I would do all the legal work for her so she wouldn’t have to be bothered with any of this. I said I would do all the documents and email them to her. Once she agreed with the documents she could sign them and I would file everything in court.

I ended the note with, “As always if you need anything done around the house, with the yard or the dog just let me know. I can always help. I will continue to put my money in the checking account until things are completed.”

I still haven’t heard anything from her. This isn't like her at all. She always expresses herself.

One of the things I distinctly remember her saying is, "Bob your weapon of choice is silence. That has never been mine."

How do I communicate with someone who won't talk back?

[sandi2]

How do I communicate with someone who won't talk back?

I should be an expert, since I have lived with a person like that for most of my life. But unfortunately, I'm not. But I can share some things I've learned. You might say I've learned more of what not to do. (Kind of like MWD said about DBing. )

I have learned timing is crucial in everything, and especially communication. I've learned that a soft tone of voice gets me a lot further than an angry one. I've learned that my attitude usually has about 90% to do with the type of reaction (or lack of one)I'll get. I've learned not to approach him as if I'm attacking. I've learned he doesn't think I'm at all attractive when I criticize. I've learned he needs words of affirmation spoken to him, even if it's not his LL. I've learned I pay the price (him shutting down) when I disrespect him in front of others. I've learned my way of communicating is not everyone's way.

The biggest part for me has been learning to have patients. I mean when he starts to make a sentence today and it may be tomorrow before he finishes it....that takes me to a whole new level of endurance!

The hardest thing for me has been to accept the times he doesn't respond....as my clue to wait. He may decide to respond later, or he may never respond. However, I can't afford to react with a bad attitude (if I want the man to actually talk). Oh....that takes grace! I never have too much.

I hope you won't be like I've been most of my M. I use to get so angry when he wouldn't make some attempt to communicate. (I would have accepted a grunt, a sigh, even a glance in my direction.) I thought it was sooooo rude for him to mimic a knot on a log when I would try to talk to him. You can bet I took it very personal. And I would leave his presence with my feelings hurt or angry. Usually very angry...which got me nowhere but further down on his priority list.

Do I need to tell you the topic of conversation in most of these times? It would usually be about some relationship. Either our M, or his family, or me and some coworker or friend, etc.

Considering your circumstances, you may have to give this more time. While you are giving her the space/time, you need not be idle. You can set some tough personal goals to work on. B/c with all our resolve to never fall back into old habits or bad behavior....without enough practice, it will happen again. Even if you were to M a new person, it will happen again if you don't change your style. And if you tend to have a trigger reaction to other people's words/action....it will be a challenge for you. However, it can be done.

So, make this change your personal project. You will have an opportunity to test those new ways. Whenever I vow I will never say or do something again...I always get the test. Those tests (opportunities) help us turn our goals into accomplishments.

I hope the time apart will help both of you heal individually enough to be able to join together and heal as a couple. Seeing and hearing from you too soon might keep her wounds kind of raw, so please be careful and don't pressure.

I want to share something else. Before my H and I were engaged, he left for military boot camp. He was young and it was a really hard time for him. But let me tell you, when he came back home that first visit.....wow! He not only looked like a million bucks....but he had grown into a man. But after he had served his military time and was back home for good....he began slipping into a passive behavior, which made him less attractive. His family may have had a part in it, or I may have had a part (probably both). Others can influence us a great deal. Life can throw some cruel curve balls at us. If we don't stay alert and focused on who/what we want to be,in spite of it all,the results can be sad.

So I hope you will enroll yourself in a personal improvement boot camp. If you get the chance to return home to her, be sure those changes are cemented enough that it can hold up under stressful times.

Don't lose hope.

[Bob1967]

I'm angry because she went back on her promise to let me watch the house and see my dog while she was on this business trip.

That doesn't mean I still can't go over and see the dog while she is gone. It's still my house too. But it would have been nice to have her permission.

I agree that silence is my best option. Silence doesn't bother me. I prefer it. The truth is I would rather not communicate with her until she is ready to talk. I find talking to my wife stressful and non productive. We usually just end up in circles.

I will wait until she is ready to communicate with me. You are right. Eventually she calls. In the meantime I will work on the separation agreement and email it to her.

[MrBond]

I was wondering about that. Why do you have to ask for her permission to see your own dog and go into your own house?

[Cnfused]

I agree that silence is my best option. Silence doesn't bother me. I prefer it. The truth is I would rather not communicate with her until she is ready to talk. I find talking to my wife stressful and non productive. We usually just end up in circles.

Why go in circles? ^^^ Just listen to understand and validate what she is saying. We don't have to agree but we should be able to understand how they are feeling.

[Bob1967]

Mr. Bond, I don’t need her permission to go to the house. I’ve just been polite. Respecting her space. It cuts down on drama.

Before my wife and I had our last fight I made it a point to only go to the house when my wife wasn’t home.

A couple of times she would come home while I was there. But when she would come home she kept the conversation friendly and did not discuss our relationship. This was fine with me. In fact this was perfect. I did not want to discuss our relationship. I still do not want to discuss our relationship.

I think it is a toxic subject.

Before I would come over I always gave my wife a heads up.

Her standard response was, “It’s your house. You can come over anytime you want.”

But after I told her I filed the separation papers she stopped responding to me. So I don’t know when she is there.

I don’t want to be there is she is there. She likes to fight and I refuse to fight with her.

The last time I was at the house she was there. And we got in a fight. This happened because she asked about the status of our relationship.

I said she didn’t understand how much she had hurt me. She got really angry. She said she was sick of living in my “house of pain.” She said I had forgiven her for name calling and I “wasn’t allowed” to keep bringing up stuff I had forgiven her for.

Then she said she thought we were separated for an entirely different reason.

I said I didn’t care what she thought. I was still hurt. She needed to realize how much she hurt me when she yelled. I wasn’t getting over it.

Then she exploded.

What the heck, right?

After listening to her yell at me for hours about how I had “dissolved her life without her permission” (her favorite phrase for the last year) she finally let me leave.

Then she sent me angry emails for days.

That was about a month ago and I haven’t seen her since. We had email exchanges for about two weeks where she blasted me and I apologized. She accused me of “harboring hurts” and “massaging grievances” and having an affair.

Then she sent an 11 page email saying she felt humiliated by the marriage and her attempts to save it. She wasn’t going to bother me anymore. I haven’t heard from her since.

So, the last thing I want to do is go to the house and see her. She is drama waiting to happen.

Based on the text yesterday (telling me someone else is taking care of the dog while she is out of town) she’s itching for a fight. I’m not going to give it to her.

I’ll wait until she gets scared. When she gets scared she calms down.

I can wait to see the dog.

[claire7]

Then she said she thought we were separated for an entirely different reason.

I said I didn’t care what she thought. I was still hurt. She needed to realize how much she hurt me when she yelled. I wasn’t getting over it.

Then she exploded.

What the heck, right?

No, not what the heck. Have you read any of the very detailed, and invaluable responses that you have gotten from vets here? Perhaps if you read there very sage advice, and then re-read your own post, you will have a better understanding of your W's POV. It doesn't sound like you've read or understood their feedback to you. I actually envy a bit the amount of attention you are getting from vets, given that it doesn't seem like any of it has sunk in.

If you want to get a D, do nothing different. If you want to improve your M, YOU will have to DO something that works. Can you imagine how else you could have responded to your W when "she said she thought we were separated for an entirely different reason"? What are some other possible responses you could have had? How might you have responded if you were trying to build a better M?

Sigh.

[MrBond]

"I did not want to discuss our relationship. I still do not want to discuss our relationship.

I think it is a toxic subject."

You're wrong. It's not the subject that is toxic, it's the way you talk to your W about it that is.

"But after I told her I filed the separation papers she stopped responding to me. So I don’t know when she is there.

I don’t want to be there is she is there. She likes to fight and I refuse to fight with her."

She is fighting because she's scared. She doesn't "like" to fight. The way you handled the separation was wrong. You two never actually dealt with trying to communicate in a way the two of you understood.

" said she didn’t understand how much she had hurt me. She got really angry. She said she was sick of living in my “house of pain.” She said I had forgiven her for name calling and I “wasn’t allowed” to keep bringing up stuff I had forgiven her for."

Well you did say that you forgave her, so she's right in that you shouldn't have kept bringing things up. Who wouldn't argue against someone who kept dredging up old arguments?

"Then she said she thought we were separated for an entirely different reason.

I said I didn’t care what she thought."

That is true. Do you think telling her that would actually make things better?

"I was still hurt. She needed to realize how much she hurt me when she yelled. I wasn’t getting over it."

That's you controlling things. She's not an 8 year old girl. You never tried to understand WHY she was yelling in the first place. People yell when they get frustrated when they feel that they're not being heard. But instead, of trying to understand that, you kept it in and made it worse by shutting down which got her more frustrated.

"Then she exploded."

I can see why.

"What the heck, right?"

No she was perfectly in her right to do that.

"After listening to her yell at me for hours about how I had “dissolved her life without her permission” (her favorite phrase for the last year) she finally let me leave."

Isn't she right? You were the one who filed the separation without telling her so she's correct. But instead of trying to understand that, you just made a sarcastic remark about it. All you're doing is perpetuating the cycle of destructive behavior.

"Then she sent me angry emails for days."

Understandable to all of us. You don't seem to understand though.

"That was about a month ago and I haven’t seen her since. We had email exchanges for about two weeks where she blasted me and I apologized. She accused me of “harboring hurts” and “massaging grievances” and having an affair."

With the exception of the A (which I'm assuming you didn't have, she was right about you harboring hurts and massaging grievances. I mean you pretty much just admitted to that above.

"So, the last thing I want to do is go to the house and see her. She is drama waiting to happen."

That's a preconceived misconception you're going to have to get over. SHE isn't the one causing drama. Both of you are.

"Based on the text yesterday (telling me someone else is taking care of the dog while she is out of town) she’s itching for a fight."

Really? you are pretty petty to think that way.

"I’m not going to give it to her."

And so your destructive behavior goes round and round.

"I’ll wait until she gets scared. When she gets scared she calms down."

Wow you feel the most powerful against her when she's scared. Sounds more like a bully than a H.

Go back and read the advice given to you. It only takes one of you to stop the destructive behavior. But each of you is waiting for the other one to take the responsibility of that first step.

Do you want to be "right" or M'd? BTW, I can see this behavior of yours being carried into your other relationships even if you do D because you haven't learned this.

[Cnfused]

MrBond,
Would you be willing to look at my posts and give me advice. I'm following the program and have read the books. I get frustrated when I see the amount of time the vets put into an individual that seems to put little effort into change and wants someone to wave their magic wand and everything is fixed

Thank you for your wisdom!