barely holding on - 2

[u-turn]

Agree with this and agree that I can only change myself.
This is very difficult as everyone says.

After a little GAL for me this morning, when I got back and sat down W sat across and started

W. you will never trust me
M. blank stare then, I hope to trust you again
W. I told you that you would never get over this
M. blank stare
W. What do you want with us
m. I don't think we should talk about us until we address ourselves
W. You will never get over this
m. I have told you that I feel that I can move past what has happened but cannot begin to work on us until it is over
W. There is no (OM) he will never leave his family
m. That doesn't change the situation, only the permanence of it
W. I deal with this every day
m. It must be very hard
W. you keep bringing this back to the square one (she walks away)

Well - I don't think that went very well. I remained calm as usual, she said there was no A - (I don't think this is the case, I don't believe what she is saying, but it doesn't matter what I think, I cannot control that.)

I do need to stop trying to talk. I heard it from you and her today.

Re-building trust is going to be very hard, but I guess that is too far ahead to worry about either.

Back to loving at a distance.

By the way - she was very annoyed by the fact that I was not engaging in conversation very much lately - she noticed and did not like it. But she just took it as I no longer want to talk to her. I don't think I was doing it correctly.

Much work and improvement is needed

Thanks Sandi!

[u-turn]

Positive DB things that happened in that exchange?
-I didn't tell her that I didn't believe her about the A being over
-I didn't bring up past evidence (prior snooping - which I have stopped and that has saved me so much grief)
-I didn't try to stretch the conversation as I usually do
-I acknowledged that I have a hard time not discussing our problems
-I listened to her without interrupting. Kept my responses short.

negative?
-blank stares probably are not very productive - not validating
-I did tell her that I wanted to work on us only after the affair was over (don't talk about the A)
-(forgot to mention this - this could be bad, in this exchange I told her that I cared for her and still have love for her but I don't need her. I don't depend on her to give me happiness (I KNOW STFU))

[MrBond]

When she says things like...

"W. you will never trust me"

Stop her and tell her that she is not you and that she has no right to "assume" what you can or cannot do. Tell her that trust is something that is earned and you can trust her as long as she's honest with you. That you two can heal as long as the honesty is there. So that is up to her. Not you.

[u-turn]

I have told her in the past that she does not know what I am capable of (when talking about trust). She seems to rehash this point a lot.

I did tell her that we both need to work on building trust again at some point - I'm sure she has lost trust in me when I have told her that I looked at her phone and such.

I chose not to say anything about what I thought it would take to build my trust in her again. I think it is way to early for that.

Thank you for the tip (I sure can use them). Now that moment is gone and I don't think I should try and talk any more about this today (not re-open the conversation).

[PeterV2]

So is the A over? She said there is no OM. Is there also NC. Is the OM out of her head completely? I doubt it. That takes time.

In order to rebuild trust she will have to be completely transparent with you. That means letting you see her phone and allowing you to explore all the text messages and phone call records in it. And it means telling you where she is at any time. This doesn't mean you're controlling her - she can go where she wants and do what she wants - it's just that there should be nothing to hide, and until you rebuild trust there will have to be a phase where you are checking on her to verify her whereabouts and activities. Once trust is re-earned then the checking will diminish as you'll feel no need to.

Not sure if you want to explain that to her.

As for forgiveness, you can tell her that forgiveness will also be a process. You need to forgive her. She needs to forgive herself. She needs to forgive you for anything that you did in the M that drove her away, and you need to forgive yourself for that too. Do you have that clearly defined?

Also you must realize that the marriage you had is over. You are now at a point (provided the A is over) where you need to build a new marriage.

[u-turn]

Totally agree Peter - I don't think it is time to do all this with her yet. I will remain detached or regain detachment first to see what happens. I do not want to push too hard too fast as this has usually been my problem.

The transparency thing is going to be a sticking point as this is completely against the freedom she is trying to get along with the rest of the MLC symptoms. She will see it as controlling at this point.

I know even if the PA is over the EA is there and will be hard to end. I don't really know if she wants to end it or realizes it is a problem.

I know I have it in me to forgive and move forward. In my soul searching, I have discovered much about myself and my flaws. I know what I can do better, I know what I will not give up, and I also know that I cannot change the past. I hope she has the ability to forgive herself, she does bring up my past faults a lot these, I believe to try and justify her actions. I have read that this will happen.

We are not perfect and I am at peace with that.

Thanks PeterV

[u-turn]

Question to all:
Do you validate even if you know what is being said is a lie?

my guess of the answer:
maybe - depends on the situation.
Sometimes - I hear what you are saying
Sometimes - I hear what you are saying but I see it differently
Never - I don't believe what you are saying
Never - I don't think that is the truth and here's the proof.

Hopefully someone will have a better answer.
Thanks

[sandi2]

The answer she gave about no OM (b/c he will never leave his family) must have hurt you. Not exactly her saying it was her choice! But that may be close to the truth as you will have for the moment. Seeing OM at work will feed her EA.

It always baffles me how the LBH feels a strong need for his WAW (who is having an A) to be able to try to trust HIM! She was the unfaithful S, and the one who has to earn YOUR trust. If you start turning it around, she will continue to feel justified. She was the one hiding the truth from you!

Don't worry about how she felt toward you not saying as much as usual. It was good that it made her feel uncomfortable.

Fwiw, you learned on the board what it means to loving her but not needing her. But She didn't.
(

[u-turn]

Oh it hurt. She has said this before. It doesn't even tell me that it's over, just that they will never be a permanent item.
The EA thing is going to be a huge issue that I can't do anything about - and she will have a nearly impossible time with too.

The trust thing. I'm asked to dig deep and figure out what problems I brought to the marriage. In doing so, now I have the fact that I have not been trustworthy (looked at phone, e-mail etc). That is something that will need to be forgiven (by myself and her) for us to move on. I do not bring this up to her - I try not to beat myself up over my mistakes any more (a problem that I have had in the past) and I am trying to improve.

I know she should be the one that is trying harder - but she's not and that concerns me.

She was actually content about the fact that I said that I didn't need her. I think it released some pressure.

[u-turn]

I think the transparency plan should come from her, but likely it will have to come from me unless she is truly back in (I can't feel that at all right now). I think I have to be patient and wait to re-establish trust. (right?)

Back to teaching today will be very busy again with this. I have a new PMA outlook for this too. I am trying to be positive with everything in my life right now. I wasn't sure that I was going back this year but it will probably be good for me. Lots of interaction with lots of people (it will keep my mind busy and focused).

Thanks all!