Stimulus-Response: The Experiment Continues

[GoatGal]

Thanks guys!

I'm not sure how I came across so I need to clarify:

I am not trying to fix him.

I am not willing to take him back "as is".

I do not need him to be happy with myself and my life.

I am happy now, even in the midst of this.

I am not willing to settle for a "less than" M.

It would have to be better or nothing at all.
-----------------------------------------

The things I said above were part of our history, in order to explain why I think a more open and friendly, supportive approach with him would be best.
He is tentative, fearful, and passive.

Like our friend the squirrel, just me being there is not enough incentive for him to come closer.
I'm a SCARY PERSON. I've been ANGRY and HURTFUL.
I've told him that I hate him, that he repulses me.. among other choice things.

I've got to have a peanut in my open palm, and he has to know it's there FOR HIM (limited time only).
--------------------------------

And---

ABSOLUTELY HE WOULD HAVE TO DO THE WORK!!!
And it would have to be HIS IDEA to do it.
Not a chance of anything else.

So don't worry your DBing heads about that.


I am not excusing his behavior, just explaining it.
I would not excuse it in the future, either.
--------------------------------------------

All I'm saying is that giving him the impression I am DONE with him is counter-productive.
It's one of his core issues--being abandoned by people who are supposed to care for you.
So you leave them BEFORE THEY CAN HURT YOU.

That's what all this looks like to me now, since some of the scales have fallen from my eyes.
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To be clear:

I have no intentions of stopping my DBing strategy and everything that goes with it,
WITH THE EXCEPTION of opening the lines of communication a little bit more from my end and increasing our positive interactions by allowing him to do more for me and working together on projects.

All these are things he likes, bonding things for us, they are also ALL things which I have stopped allowing.

He is not actively cheating on me, nor doing anything that is a deal breaker.
(Sure, he's acting like a teenager in fantasy land, but for the most part, he's been pretty respectful except for a few snippy texts/exchanges and the silent treatment.)

Seems to me I should be focusing on the GOOD that he's doing, and continuing to build on THAT rather than punishing him for not being all fixed and ready to re-commit to me.
I think he needs some reason to believe that getting help would be "worth it".

Including as some of my 180's:

1. Allowing him to do things for me, which helps him to feel good around me.
By allowing him to do what he's good at and help me too, aren't I validating his worth as a husband and a man?

I think that's where I might have gone wrong prior to BD. And he has said he didn't feel appreciated.

Just "being around me" is not enough when being around me means he feels guilty and less-than....
And no, I'm not trying to "fix" him here either, just giving him more opportunities to have positive interactions.
And positive for him--and me---is allowing him to do things which make him feel good too. That's all.

It's a 180 for me to be in contact.
Prior to BD I didn't like talking on the phone or communicating electronically.
He DID. He used to call me all the time and I rarely answered... (Yep.)
I'm not talking about calling him and texting him frequently.
Just that SOME TIMES I might initiate something, as opposed to dead silence when he doesn't initiate.
That's all.


3. And also, letting him know that I am not looking for another R with another man AT THIS TIME.
I think would help calm things down right now.
I have the distinct impression that he thinks I'm "dating" and I'm NOT.
Not that I won't after D, but that right now I'm not.
I honestly think he doesn't believe he can compete for a whole bunch of reasons.
I don't think he needs to get the idea that he has competition right now.
He doesn't! So it would just be the truth.


Guys--I have to go with my gut here.
I'm not talking about changing my DBing much at all, just tailoring it to my own sitch in small ways.

Looking back at my log book from a few months ago, we were much better off. I was doing the things I described above.
Once I stopped, things have gone downhill fairly consistently, IMHO.

I have stepped back, and am giving him tremendous space.
I am NOT pursuing or giving him a pass.

All I'm talking about is dropping a few crumbs of hope for him to find while he's lost out there in the MLC woods.

Surely that can't be a bad thing, to remind him that there is something good baking back in the cottage. (Even if really HIM who needs to hop into that oven and finish baking himself!)

---GGG

[GoatGal]

Yeah, so...

No. I am not considering asking him to come home, if I gave that impression!
(I was re-reading my earlier posts.)

I am not talking about giving him the impression that I'm here no matter what (or who) he does.

I still have my boundaries, to which I am holding fast.
I am still scarce, don't ask questions, don't communicate often unless necessary, don't ask for anything 90% of the time, I'm busy, GALing, PMAing, STFUing... all that is the same.


On the positive side, he has been here when he said he would be, is generally treating me with respect and consideration, is paying the bills, being pretty transparent about the basic stuff, is nice to me and does nice little things for me.

As with any lab animal, it seems I should be providing POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT for the things he is getting "right".

Otherwise, why would he repeat the behavior?

He's got to know that his efforts are being noticed too.

Likewise with the negative reinforcement/punishment.
Which amounts to ignoring bad behavior that is "unknown" or not a deal-breaker, and having consequences for behavior which crosses my boundaries.

If he is not crossing my boundaries, I see no need to use punishment.

He shows concern for my welfare in small ways consistently. I feel I should reward this with a peanut.

Up until recently, he always let me know his whereabouts.
He stopped doing that when I stopped doing that.
The behavior is becoming extinguished as we speak...

Now it's like tit-for-tat.

"Well, if YOU want to be mysterious and start "dating" and not contact me for days, then I'll do it to you TOO!"

I don't think this would be his mode, except that he is taking his cues from me, as I said.

I don't think that's moving us closer together, just farther apart.

It's all just dog training.
Reward what you want to see more of, ignore bad behavior unless it becomes dangerous or crosses your boundaries.

That's the plan.

I wouldn't "reward" him for just showing up and sucking air....



---GGG

[Wonka]

The one thing you can try to do differently is to extend an invitation to H to do things together on a very rare occasions and document in your lab chart. How about asking H to ride bikes together after finishing up chores on a weekend?

Then monitor and assess.

[GoatGal]

Wonka,

That's on my radar.

But right now I think it's too much "togetherness". He's even said he prefers riding alone right now.

All I'm talking about is asking for help/guidance with a project and working together on it. That way it has a "purpose" and it's not about hanging out together.
Also, I'm a good self-starter, and the fact is that I pick things up quickly if I'm interested, and do fine on my own.
(Computers and Math are not on my list of "interests" so.....:) )

Which has sort of made him redundant.
OW made him feel like he was on top of the world.
I think me being who I am makes him feel inferior, when he's not. That's in his mind, but I see it.

Somebody said we should be more like the OW.
Well, I don't know about that, but a BIG 180 for ME would be to step back and let him take the lead, to direct things, to teach ME.
I've always been the one teaching HIM new things because I'm more curious and get involved in more activities.

For example: He really liked when we worked on my car together. That was the first time since BD that we laughed and "hung out". It was also the LAST TIME since I stepped up the detaching.

He showed me how to change the oil, handed me tools, allowed me to do it for myself, but gave me constant support, and since he knows all that stuff, he was teaching me. Laughed at me while I crawled around in the dirt, laughed at himself.
I haven't seen him laugh around me since that day.
And he looked at me a LOT, made more eye contact---this is HIS COMFORT ZONE.
The fact that I was in cutoffs and a tank top didn't hurt either.
It was the BEST day we've had in over a year.

That was back before Memorial Day and things have gone done hill since then.

Which is why I feel we need to do more things like this.
Not all the time, but on occasion, and see how it goes.

Also--when he fixed my bike, I hadn't asked him to do that.
He did it because he wanted to, he's good at it. It's how he's always shown his love.

I thanked him and validated him over this, but then I went right back to being dark and pulling way back.

So what was I telling him by retreating from him?
That I liked that he fixed my bike, but I really didn't want to see or talk to him?

That's how I would have taken it. That I was being "used" but not valued.

He's told me that's how he's felt in the past. Only valued as a paycheck, and there is some truth to that.
I'd given up on him spending time with me and doing things together because he'd made it clear he was "too busy.."...

So the last thing I want him to feel now is that's all he's good for. Just a paycheck and a handyman.

Well, I can buy those things.
It's the stuff I can't buy that I value in him and want from him.

---GGG

[Wonka]

GGG,

Good thinking on your part about too much togetherness. However, H seems open to doing projects. Hmmmm...you have several unfinished projects around the house...no? Maybe can tackle one small project and ask H to show you "how" this and that is done.

1) You work together
2) H gets to show off some of his skills
3) H feels like the "big shot" here

What do you think?

[GoatGal]

Wonka,
That's EXACTLY what I'm talking about.
Thank you!!!



I can just mention some small things that might take an hour or so, when "he has the time".
With absolutely NO pressure on when/how, no "talking about stuff" other than the work at hand.
It really helps him feel closer to me.

He has said over the years that he wished I'd worked on things with him more.
Ummmm... hello??? Goat Gal?????
Men bond by doing things together.
(I'm like one of the guys in every way except one!)
We used to work on cars together, bikes together, construction/destruction/remodeling...

THAT IS ONE THING THAT SETS ME APART FROM THE MAJORITY OF WOMEN HE WILL MEET.
IT IS MY "ACE IN THE HOLE"!!!
I am a great co-worker, know my way around a power tool, goat hoof, guitar amplifier and sound board, and a building code manual.

I can get down and get it done, and still clean up great, making it to the ball on time with enough spray tan to cover those boo-boos.
I'm not afraid of getting dirty.
I'm not afraid of much at all.
I'm like a dude---BUT BETTER!

But in recent years, this "doing things together" fell by the wayside, and it was our #1 way of connecting. He has said so.
He says he wasn't happy with ME, but I saw him stop doing all the things he used to enjoy.
No more tinkering with the cars, bikes....
The remodel took on a heinous life of its own and we found ourselves slaving away separately on different projects, tired and irritable, bleeding money...

It wasn't FUN anymore. It was survival.

I hated it too. I just didn't try and run away.

OK. Maybe I did to some degree, but it was into my own head.
That's honest.
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To his credit, he does EVERYTHING I ask of him in terms of helping out.

Sometimes I don't even have to ask; he sees my to-do list and just DOES IT.
I think that says something...

I have been looking for him to express things the way I WOULD LIKE.
Well, he'd have to have a personality transplant for that to happen right now.
(I mean--a SECOND personality transplant!)

For example: The other day he was working on the water filters and I said:
"Wow. You read my mind. How did you know I was going to ask you about that?"

And he answered, "I saw that little note by the fridge and thought I'd just get it done."

Seems to me I should be appreciating this and opening up instead of backing off more.

I believe he feels like crap for what he did, that he feels awful internally.
This is his only avenue right now to re-connect with me.
I am sure of that.
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TRANSPARENCY:

When he is not going to be here, he's always given me a legit, verifiable work reason.
Unless I've been vague about my doings, in which case I get the same "Won't be there" stuff.
Makes sense. If I don't tell him, why should he have to tell me?

He stopped telling ME when I stopped telling HIM about what I was up to, and let him stew in his own juice.
This looked like I had something I wanted to "hide" and I actually didn't.
I have always been an open book and I don't want to change that.
I HAVE nothing to hide.
(((((Except YOU GUYS!!!)))))

So, I don't have a problem with letting him know where I am and who I'm with.
He is the only one who would know if something happened to me.
I'm not in contact with anyone else regularly for them to notice before the dogs ate my squishy parts...

And I'm not doing anything I'm ashamed of or embarrassed about, or need to hide from him.
I always hated sneakiness from him, so why should I all of a sudden become secretive?
It's not me, and it's not the type of R I want.

I don't feel I have to prove that I can have a life.
He knows full well that I have one and always will, with him or without him.
Isn't it enough that I'm clearly enjoying myself and my friends, getting on with my life, not clinging to him, not trying to "help" him or "hold" him?

Seems to me I should stay true to who I am and my core values.
Those include being up front and honest, accountable and transparent.
It's me SETTING THE EXAMPLE FOR THE BEHAVIOR I WANT FROM HIM.
Without ASKING or DEMANDING anything from him, just leading by example and reinforcing him when he does the same.

Lately I feel like I've been deliberately trying to be vague and mysterious, when I don't need to be.
I've always done a lot on my own, without him. This isn't even a GAL/180 for me.

I think keeping pertinent info from him is something I don't like when he does it to me...ergo... I'm not doing that anymore.

I don't feel I need to give all the details or a blow-by-blow, but common courtesy dictates that I should inform him of the basics because we do have shared responsibilities.
It's what I want from him, so I must be able to offer it in return.
------------------------------

So if I'm going to be the lighthouse, well, the light has to be on and showing the safe passage home, doesn't it?
If I cover my light with a dark shroud of detachment, how is he going to know it's still shining?

I know I spend a lot of time on here trashing H, and that's a lot better than trashing him to his face or to someone else in real life.

But he has done lots of GOOD THINGS that have gone unrecognized while I have been busy "detaching" and GALing and whatnot.

I stopped paying attention to what was happening with him, and now I need to make some small course corrections.

If I give him my whereabouts and check in, he does the same.
If I reassure him, he does the same.
If I'm sweet and nice and available, he is the same.
If I initiate simple open-ended, no expectation convos, he does the same.


And just the opposite is true.
Now, granted, his "same" comes with a HUGE grain of MLC salt, but it's there, nonetheless.
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But if he doesn't step over my boundary line, is respectful and as honest (as I can determine without snooping) why shouldn't I be holding out that peanut?

A peanut is not a "Get Out of Jail Free" pass.

It's just a reminder that HOME IS WHERE PEANUTS COME FROM.

---------------------------------

Test #1:

I initiated contact via text this morning with a pic of the tree guys working, saying:
"Guess who woke us up this morning? :)"

He texts back quickly: 'Cool!"

This is followed by another text in which he actually jokes: "Anybody DIE yet??"

Me: "Hahah. Funny you should ask. Maybe give me a call when you get a free minute!"

He called IMMEDIATELY and we chatted about the tree mess... he was actually CHUCKLING. It was a very upbeat convo in which he shared a few things about being stuck on a boring conference call, etc.

This is already a huge difference.
We haven't had a chatty phone call or a chuckle in weeks.
(Of course, when I said it was better that the tree guys quit working on the rotten trees before one of them got killed, he said "Well, I don't know if I agree with THAT!" (WTF???)

I said, "Really? You'd rather one of them got killed than a branch fell on the house?" (/i]
(Sorry, it just came out of my mouth.)
He said something like: "[i]Well, I don't know. I guess not really."

And that's the weird part.

My old H would have NEVER said something like that. EVER.
That's the freaky part.
How he's still so cold and uncaring on some level. SO ANGRY.

Nasty to people, says mean things about people, even his landlady/friend/roommate/employee who has housed him for free on and off for almost a year. He cuts her down regularly.

I'm getting off on a tangent again... what else is new?

---GGG

Who really has got some work to do and is procrastinating---BIG TIME!!!!

[Matt165]

GG,
You know your sitch better than anyone. Only you can decide what is right to do and what may do harm. Just remember that he has hid much of his "other" life from you (the dating site, viagra, etc.)and by omitting what he is up to it is still a lie, a lie of omission. Also remember that OW is now no longer in the picture and his change may have something to do with that and he is also actively looking for replacement OW that wants an outdoorsy, well read, sex loving guy a lot younger than he says he is.

As for the attitude change towards other people... my W has started to mirror the way her father acts when around him. My D's have noticed it and say when she is around him and his wife she becomes creepy just like he is! He is a put down other people type person. He has even told her that when something happens the first thing you need to do is establish who is to blame! I thought it was a joke but he was dead serious! I guess for a guy who has caused so much crap to others all his life he has gotten good at the blame game! Total 180 for my W. She would defend a person who cut her off in traffic saying maybe they were lost or something. Now, it's time to blame someone else 24/7 (and it's usually me!). She was even trash talking about her female boss with her work friend the last time she was over with her! She would have NEVER done that in the past. Who knows, maybe they feel so bad about who they have become they feel the need to cut others down, think that it will make them look better?

[GoatGal]

No worries Matt!

I couldn't "forget" his Viagra, dating profiles, and omissions of the truth if I tried!
My eyes are WIDE open, and believe me, I don't trust him to make good decisions at this time whatsoever.
-----------------------------------
I also know that the OW thing has been over for almost a year.
I have "eyes" on him at work, as well as monitoring all expenses... and phone up until the beginning of June.
He was badmouthing her too at the end, saying it was "stupid" that she had no manners, was sort of an embarrassment to him.
(In other words--He wouldn't take her out in public where people knew him. She wasn't exactly a hot piece, if you know what I mean. Dumpy, frumpy, needy and clingy. It was destined to fail anyway. You can put lipstick on a pig, you know?)
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I had access to all phone records and never a call or text to or from her all that time. I had reports that it was "DONE" and I believe it.
I also know he did NOT have a second phone and this was someone he'd been calling 10-20 times a day, texting thousands of texts per month.

She was back with her "abusive" husband by Christmas of 2013.
(Yeah, her hubby must have been a real terror, taking care of their little ones while she was out running around! He should get a friggin medal. Like me.)
------------------------------------
I may still be a chump, but if H got the Viagra for a new OW he's got, then why is he trolling on the "Over 50" site? He'd be busy doing other things.

If he actually HAD a new OW, H also would be finding lots of reasons NOT to be here, but in fact is here during most of his "free time" and looks forward to staying here on the weekends.

Up until a few months ago, he openly allowed a GPS tracking system on his phone and even tried to re-install it when it goobered up.
(I finally gave up on resetting it because I realize I felt better not obsessing over everywhere he was at every moment.)

But if there had been something going on with her, or anyone else, I would have seen SOME indication, and I never did. No spending, hotels, weird gas purchases, lunches, NADA.

He leaves work promptly and gets here, then back to the friend's house.
(And no--nothing going on there. Confirmed lesbian, among other things.)
If I call the house (rarely) he's always there. He has also called me from her land-line from time to time to talk.

From the looks of his spending, he's buying lots of liquor and drinking alone at her house! That is sad, and unhealthy. But there's nothing I can do about it.
---------------------------------
Incidentally, the dating site came about during a week when the friend he's staying with was on vacation.
He was incredibly lonely, said he hated it, hated being alone.
Which is probably why he's never moved to get his own place!
He can afford it, it would be more convenient, he could bring new OW there...so why hasn't he?

Hmmmmmm.........

Anyhow--back to the dating site.
He probably saw one of those commercials with the happy couples and it sparked his curiosity.
It has for me too when I'm alone and feeling sorry for myself.
I'm guessing he logged on... and then it took on a life of its own.

Heck, I ALMOST SIGNED UP when I saw how many people had reviewed my profile. I was curious about what they were saying to me, who they were.
Being on there is FANTASY PLUS!

So even I can get sucked in, pretending to be someone I'm not. And I don't "prefer" anonymous internet connections.
(Except with you guys. <3 )

It's so easy to get involved with the dating site.
Of course my profile is totally fake, but people are "flirting" with me right and left. And I don't even have a picture on there!
I could be the Elephant Man for all they know.
If I were really looking for someone, I could really get over-involved.

Which of course doesn't mean that I'd ever meet anyone compatible or that he would either.

Maybe that's another reason why he's mad. He's not getting all the wonderful things he thought would be coming his way.
OW skewed his thinking that there were a million more like her out there, lining up for him, if only his old bat of a wife would just stop breathing...
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I personally think it's a way to feed his ego, and to "plan" for "when" I'm gone so he won't be alone.
Of course, I've told him that I will only leave if he divorces me, so I guess that's still his plan...
Or he never heard me. Or he's confused.
Or all of the above...

Anyhow, right now he's hardly available for a "serious relationship" and won't be for some time.
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I think the Viagra was the same thing.
Wishful thinking...planning for this great dating life which is NOT going to materialize. Or maybe he thought to use it with me at some point.
Who the heck knows?

It's funny because he always SWORE he did not have ED, that it was just ME, that he wasn't attracted to ME.
That everything worked just great with porn and OW...until it stopped working for that too.

For all I know, the Viagra is because he's rebooting from a porn addiction and is freaked out at the flatline they experience at the beginning.

I don't really know what/who it's for, it falls under the heading of "believe only half of what you see" and it's useless to spend any more time speculating on it.

It could just be more crazy thinking on his part.
---------------------------------------

So I'm going to let him have his fantasies and see how that plays out.

I'd be really surprised if anything came of it.

You don't know my H, but he is a shadow of his former self.
He looks like hell, can hardly carry on a conversation.
He's too thin, developed a big pot belly, and he has Hep-C.

HE'S GOT NO GAME!!!!

He only got lucky with OW because she was a subordinate employee and saw him as Mr. Powerful with the wonderful wife.
Because she had been abused by her father's brother who was about my H's age when she was young. She was thirty years younger than H.
(Can you say: "Taking advantage of a messed up individual"???)

He can come off pretty powerful at work, but that's the ONLY place.
He doesn't engage with anyone except subordinate co-workers because they make him feel important.

He doesn't go anywhere or socialize except with co-workers.
That's a fact and it says a lot.


If he tries to act like Mr. Big Man on Campus on a "date", he'll just come off like an arrogant blow-hard.
I've seen him do it with me and others, and it's not pretty.
No one likes him anymore, me included.

He's also completely disinterested in anyone but HIMSELF at this point.
Not exactly a turn-on, either.
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Yes, I know there are skanks and gold-diggers all over who would hook up for him for whatever twisted reason.

But he lives at a friend's house, has very little money, a wife, a mortgage, a bunch of animals, and a lot of work to do here.
He doesn't have the time nor the energy for a "relationship" that's not hooking up in the broom closet at work!
That was the majority of their "time together". Romantic, right?

A real relationship would take work and intimacy.
And I think we all know by now that those are two areas in which he is lacking.

So none of those "potential fantasy women" are competition for me.

(And now that I've had the "tutorial", I'm pretty sure I'd catch him spending or being someplace where he gives himself away.)


I really think he's up to exactly NOTHING except wishful thinking at this point.

Just avoiding facing the issues and hanging on in Replay as long as he can.
Hopefully this phase will soon pass too.


---GGG

[Ggrass]

If you pursue him, what's to make him change?

What's his motivation to stop looking for ow?
Just pondering out loud, more this anything. If he thinks he can flap around in the single life forever where are the boundaries?

[ForeverYoung]

I hear you GGG. My W always tells me where she is going and when she will return. I'll not bomb that with some "being mysterious" game.

(though I won't argue that the mysterious card doesn't have value in some situations... just not ours)

Keep working on the connection. This is possible without pursuing.