Stimulus-Response: The Experiment Continues

[GoatGal]

PS: I wasn't ever a wife who waited on him, did his laundry, followed him around asking for attention/affection, did nice things for him all the time, trying to keep him happy.
Really, I'm thinking I wasn't that "wifely". But honestly, he seemed to like it that way. Or at least, he never complained.

I thought that being me and being loving in my way, being loyal and true and honest... well, I thought that was enough. I guess it wasn't.

He was the one who would do my laundry... do the dishes when my back flared up. He was the one who would bring me little gifts...

I never did value those things, and I rarely did that sort of stuff for HIM.
(I wanted quality time, which I rarely got. And physical touch, which I rarely got.)

It is a 180 for me to do thoughtful little things for him, to seek out his company more in ways that are comfortable FOR HIM, to ask for his advice and help more.

On the other hand, it is a 180 for me to do EVERYTHING myself, to do "his stuff", the farm animals, household maintenance... those are things he used to take pride in, where his skill set shines.

He is someone who wants to take care of others. I won't allow him to care for me now.
But I don't think it's a GOOD 180.
I'm not allowing him to do the things that he feels he does well, the way he shows his love. I'm putting a big blockade up there.

If he can't show his love that way, how will he?


I'm busy showing him how strong I am and how I don't need him anymore, how I don't lean on him anymore.

You see where I'm going with this?


---GGG

[beatrice]

I have thought quite a lot about whether or not to post this.

A major goal is the restoration of marriage. And a wise poster - 25yearMLC says you can be happy or be right.

I had a long and happy marriage, and for a long time I wanted the chance to restore my marriage. I did a lot of things wrong - a LOT believe me, and looking back I might have done it better, and I might still be married.

But at what price? Turns out my xh had some major issues - bigger than I suspected, and until he was prepared to do some emotinal heavy lifting on these, really, I have come to the sad conclusion that I wouldn't want to be a relationship with him.

We are not a soft landing for another troubled human being. Marriage is about compromise - I totally get that, but it takes two to make it dynamic.

What do you really want? A long history is a lot to jettison I know, but what I now want from life is not what I wanted during my marriage. I used a lot of emotional energy, keeping things afloat.

It sounds like your h has some major sexual issues that he maybe needs professional help with, if you are going to have a happy future together. How much does this matter, if he doesn't get help. I suspect that they will not go away but resurface periodically.

Not to rain on anyone's parade, there have been several cases of reconciliation and then a second MLC because the issues had never been addressed, and did not go away. This is not invariable, by any means, but worth thinking about.

[GoatGal]

Thanks, beatrice.

I appreciate your words and your honesty.

I have thought long and hard about this issue myself since BD last May 2013.
I've thought about it even more now that I'm on my own.

That event had the effect of waking me up from a sleep in which I'd allowed myself to slowly become numb to the situation.
I'm awake now. That's one good thing that's happened.
(And I finally got into those "skinny" jeans! )
----------------------------------------

My current stance is that I made the decision years ago to live with and love this man who was never going to be able to be God's Gift in the bedroom department. I accepted that about him.

I knew he had intimacy/attachment issues, and that's pretty much where they played out.
It wasn't all terrible, there was some good stuff as well, tenderness, consideration, caring...he just had trouble performing when too many emotions were present, so---cut out the emotion and problem solved, right?
That seemed to be his thinking.

Which is not so great for the other partner and it just got intolerable over time, especially since the porn corrupted any sense of even needing an emotional connection.

Cue OW---who he liked to believe was a great romance, but in fact, was someone he used because she was willing to do things "his way" with no real emotional connection.
It was a fantasy.
And he really liked it that way, I'm gathering.

---------------------------------------

He himself is a victim.
He sweeps this under the rug if you ask him about it, stating no--he's just strong, doesn't need anybody.
But it's not true. He's more needy than most but can't admit to this vulnerability.


This may play into why he has been so angry at me; why he has even said that he IS the victim more than once.
(Really projecting, as if I were his mother and had treated him terribly. I didn't understand this at the time, but I'm starting to get it.)
He had a terrible childhood, a difficult adolescence, it's amazing he survived.
But underneath all of this is a really good man. I still believe that. I wouldn't have stayed with him otherwise, and I wouldn't be so torn up now.
-----------------------------------------------

I still see that man from time to time, buried underneath a black cloak of "Yes. You got it. I'm a A88hole. Deal with it."

But he is very afraid.
Afraid of feeling "bad" feelings, of being vulnerable...he needs to soothe and distract himself.
He's always been this way to some extent, but the last few years I guess it got so much worse.
He's had anxiety attacks, doesn't want to get on a plane anymore, freaks out on buses, with too many people.

That has nothing to do with me and I've seen it escalate.
Fears and phobias. Which he would never get treated.
He just---AVOIDED ALL THOSE THINGS.
Instead of dealing with things that made him uncomfortable, he just made sure he didn't encounter them.
That seemed to be the life plan.
And now I'm one of the things that makes him uncomfortable. He won't examine it or try and fix it.
Avoiding it is easier, I guess.

He can't seem to see, or won't see that this is not going to get any better.
Not with living elsewhere or with a new partner.

Maybe the fear of finally dealing with stuff is too great to even consider. I don't know and he won't talk about it.

He has said that he is worried that he "can't be fixed". There is a lot of anxiety there for him.
----------------------------------------------------------------

I think what they say about the root cause of MLC is true:

If they have unresolved conflict from their past, this is the time when it all blows sky high.
And he certainly has done everything he could to avoid dealing with things over the years.
Much easier for him to believe that it's me, and that it would be fixed with someone new so he'd never have to face it.

I also know that he KNOWS this is not true. That he knows it's not me.
He's just continuing down those cheeseless tunnels, hoping that maybe, just maybe, the "Magic" cheese will appear in one of them to make it all better.
-----------------------------------------------------------

To be clear, I'm NOT talking about waiting here with open arms, willing to accept him back as the Prodigal Hubby should he want to come home.

I DO NOT want the marriage we had. He would have to make big changes to be able to connect with me better emotionally.

I would hope that would lead to a better sexual connection, as it did years ago when he was in therapy briefly for similar problems.
It got better, we got married, and he quit going. He never really dealt with everything then.
I wish I'd know back then what I know now....

I am quite resigned to not having a fabulous sex life because it would be nothing new!
If what I was after was great sex, I could have had that instead of the marriage I did have.

Right now what I'd treasure most is a close , trusting, emotional connection with the man I chose to spend my life with.
All the rest is gravy...


----GGG

[GoatGal]

PS: All this ^^^^^^^ is not mind-reading.

This is stuff I've known for YEARS about him and about us.

I resigned myself to it then when he wouldn't get help.

It just never occurred to me that he would cheat on me and then abandon me because of it. Never in a million years.

[beatrice]

GGG - I very much relate to a lot of what you said. Apart from the particular sexual issues, our spouses sound a lot alike. A lot.

My xh achieved intimacy through sex, and it was very very important to him. I believe (probably tmi here) that he was afraid of not being able to perform, because he didn't know where it would leave him as a man. It hadn't happened, but he had a terror of it. And the OW1 OMG We called her the town bike. I realise people do not get that way without a lot of damage themselves, but it was embarrassing to everyone that he took up with her. So with her he was getting all this thrilling stuff . . . .

But the sexual issues are actually a proxy for their problems. Yes, I would have worked on my marriage if my xh had decided to come back. He was a sweet guy and we loved each other.

But life has its own compensations. I am sure you will not sit at home waiting for this poor guy to sort himself out!

[Matt165]

GG,
First, I'd like to say it is your life and your M. You should do whatever YOU feel is best. I tried so very hard to my M work. I gave my W my time, energy, love, affection, etc. I did everything I could to help her understand that she was loved and wanted. None of that made a bit of difference. All I ended up doing was losing me in the process. Think about what he has been doing with the on line stuff, OW, etc. If you have to become someone you're not to get someone who could do the things he's done is it worth it? Do you want to walk on egg shells the rest of your life for someone who could at any moment repeat the crap he has already done? Someone who you may never really trust and who doesn't trust you not because of anything you have done but because of the things he's done and he's knows are wrong but did them anyway?

He MUST know that you want the M to work. If he doesn't he is blind deaf and dumb. You have tried in so many ways to let him know this. If he was a suitor and not your H already, would you allow him to act the way he has? GG, when someone is cheating and you say if he doesn't stop you will end up D and he files it isn't normal. It shows that he wanted to control you.

Being loving, loyal and honest and true makes no difference to these selfish jerks who our S's have turned into. People show you through their own actions what it is they value. He cheated, lied (and still is), is actively seeking out other people to bring into his life, is mean and judgmental...is this who you want in your life?

My W knows I want our M and that I love her and care about her. None of that matters. It wasn't what you did or didn't do that caused him to go off the rails and I don't believe anything we do can change a thing that they are going to do. At some point he will either see you for the great person you are or he won't. In the mean time live the life you would want to live if he wasn't around. Try as best as you can to be happy with who you are. If he ever really wants to repair the damage he has done he will start to do what he needs to to do that.

I'm on your side GG as we all are here. We all are here (at least at the start) because we want our M's to work and I really hope that happens for you. I'm just not sure from what you have posted that GUBU is anywhere near where he is ready to do that yet.

[Ggrass]

I think b is saying he needs to make it h decision, you have hinted offered etc.

It still has to be his, and he has work to do.
Mine sprinted he knows he has work to, but refuses to look at him self, it's 10000000% me.

Without him take any step, it will be very tough, he needs to take one step.

[job]

GG,
You can't fix him. He has to be the one to step up to the plate. Unless he's willing to do the work, no matter what you do, it will never be enough. So, please step back, allow him to figure things out.

[LoisB]

GGG,

I think what you wrote here is really insightful. And, I think most of us on these boards could have written the same thing. Difficulties with intimacy/emotional attachment seem to be a common thread. I know that, in our case, the stronger the emotional attachment, the harder it was for H...I couldn't see it then...but, I can now.

I would suggest keeping this piece of writing available when you have doubts about your value and your role in all of this. You seem to have nailed it down here. Allow yourself to validate yourself in the darkest times.

You seem to have a clear picture of who this man is. Hold onto that.

I knew he had intimacy/attachment issues, and that's pretty much where they played out.
It wasn't all terrible, there was some good stuff as well, tenderness, consideration, caring...he just had trouble performing when too many emotions were present, so---cut out the emotion and problem solved, right?
That seemed to be his thinking.

Which is not so great for the other partner and it just got intolerable over time, especially since the porn corrupted any sense of even needing an emotional connection.

Cue OW---who he liked to believe was a great romance, but in fact, was someone he used because she was willing to do things "his way" with no real emotional connection.
It was a fantasy.
And he really liked it that way, I'm gathering.

---------------------------------------

He himself is a victim.
He sweeps this under the rug if you ask him about it, stating no--he's just strong, doesn't need anybody.
But it's not true. He's more needy than most but can't admit to this vulnerability.


This may play into why he has been so angry at me; why he has even said that he IS the victim more than once.
(Really projecting, as if I were his mother and had treated him terribly. I didn't understand this at the time, but I'm starting to get it.)
He had a terrible childhood, a difficult adolescence, it's amazing he survived.
But underneath all of this is a really good man. I still believe that. I wouldn't have stayed with him otherwise, and I wouldn't be so torn up now.
-----------------------------------------------

I still see that man from time to time, buried underneath a black cloak of "Yes. You got it. I'm a A88hole. Deal with it."

But he is very afraid.
Afraid of feeling "bad" feelings, of being vulnerable...he needs to soothe and distract himself.
He's always been this way to some extent, but the last few years I guess it got so much worse.
He's had anxiety attacks, doesn't want to get on a plane anymore, freaks out on buses, with too many people.

That has nothing to do with me and I've seen it escalate.
Fears and phobias. Which he would never get treated.
He just---AVOIDED ALL THOSE THINGS.
Instead of dealing with things that made him uncomfortable, he just made sure he didn't encounter them.
That seemed to be the life plan.
And now I'm one of the things that makes him uncomfortable. He won't examine it or try and fix it.
Avoiding it is easier, I guess.

He can't seem to see, or won't see that this is not going to get any better.
Not with living elsewhere or with a new partner.

Maybe the fear of finally dealing with stuff is too great to even consider. I don't know and he won't talk about it.

He has said that he is worried that he "can't be fixed". There is a lot of anxiety there for him.

[pbetra]

I have thought quite a lot about whether or not to post this.

A major goal is the restoration of marriage. And a wise poster - 25yearMLC says you can be happy or be right.

I had a long and happy marriage, and for a long time I wanted the chance to restore my marriage. I did a lot of things wrong - a LOT believe me, and looking back I might have done it better, and I might still be married.

But at what price? Turns out my xh had some major issues - bigger than I suspected, and until he was prepared to do some emotinal heavy lifting on these, really, I have come to the sad conclusion that I wouldn't want to be a relationship with him.

We are not a soft landing for another troubled human being. Marriage is about compromise - I totally get that, but it takes two to make it dynamic.

What do you really want? A long history is a lot to jettison I know, but what I now want from life is not what I wanted during my marriage. I used a lot of emotional energy, keeping things afloat.

It sounds like your h has some major sexual issues that he maybe needs professional help with, if you are going to have a happy future together. How much does this matter, if he doesn't get help. I suspect that they will not go away but resurface periodically.

Not to rain on anyone's parade, there have been several cases of reconciliation and then a second MLC because the issues had never been addressed, and did not go away. This is not invariable, by any means, but worth thinking about.

Beatrice, I came to check on GoatGal. Your post has hit a cord (a very useful one). This is so true - Sound advice that we can benefit from. Thx. p. (Back to reading! )