Sounds like you are having another rough spell. But I noticed you are pulling yourself out of it really well. From the outside looking in, it seems like H is trying to see how strong you will be. Bite the bullet girl! Don't let him bait you! When he said he wasn't too tired for whatever you should've nipped your negative thinking in the bud and took what you wanted!!! I KNOW how it feels to WANT your H to verbally let you know he wants you. But Karen, it ain't gonna happen...at least not yet! Give him a reason to tell you! Sugar gets more flies than vinegar. If he suspects you are gonna cry and make a scene over it, he will just dig his heels in moreso. Think STRONG !!!
We all have to learn to change our whole way of thinking and acting. And sometimes we feel like we deserve more than we are getting...and rightly so. But instead of reacting we need to ACT ! If something isn't working with the WA, change the equation! Get yourself to a place of strength and STAY THERE . Work on you and the work on the M will come easier.
God bless ya my friend. BTW my I.D. is DebiO16, but it will also work as Debio16. I use yahoo, if I haven't mentioned it before. Anytime you want a shoulder, give me a shout. Take care! Debi
Debi, I now know what you mean about having that talk that you had with h. I did not issue an ultimatum, but I did express some things that I have not really faced up to.
I am v. open-too open w/some people and solicit too many people for advice. But, I just thought that someone would have to have the RIGHT answer. Whenever someone would say something about my h I would get v. defensive and put the blame all back on myself. Reason being, that when others reinforce negatives (or challenges-for a better term) about h, it would just fuel my fire for me to get upset with him again.
For example, one C told me that he has avoidance issues. I brushed it off. Last week a friend said that he does things that others would not let him get away w/ and that he uses my guilt (against me) to make me feel bad/like it is all my fault. Cycler said that it takes two to tango and it is not JUST me that got us here. So, I'd dismiss these things and tell myself, "well, she's D and bitter, so what does she know?" and, "why did i talk to this person? I shouldn't do that." and, "why is this c telling me this? I'm here to work on me." Finally, two friends at work told me that it is NOT all me, that a lot of my emo's are normal (issue being how I deal with them.), and that he needs to learn how to "treat a woman."
Trish said a lot of other things that rang true that I have just been in denial about and/or repressing. ie: how he responds to me is NOT my fault, that if he doesn't see how great I am, do I really want to be with him, that I am being too easy on him and letting him off the hook.
Seeing this old bf made something click too. He was not overly expressive so one day (about 6mos.r) I said, you don't say ily and/or you are not romantic...(i am stating this v. broadly). Do you have those feelings for me? And he said, "no." So we broke up. Nothing ugly-just a let it out kinda thing.
And, I have been praying a lot and doing a bible study w/a book that I have what God is to women.
Getting it out on paper helped too. (obviously to be editted if ever shared.)
So, last night h got home late-didn't call me, I didn't call him. W! was my 'tude. I stayed in my room, he didn't greet me like usually he would come find me (not that our house is v. big! ). He washed dishes, folded laundry, etc. (he was on a mission-hey, this is good for something!) I did say hi to him in the kit. but did not x him. I asked if he wanted food and what movie it was that he wanted to watch. He shrugged said he didn't know if he wanted to eat. I asked how bout chix and he said ok. He didn't answer the q. about the movie. Ok, maybe he didn't hear me...i do speak softly. He said he couldn't remember, so ok, i'll pick then!
came home, ate together, started the movie, he gets up, does more laundry, takes a shower, goes to bed w/o saying anything. (usually would x me goodnight and say he was going to read or whatever) Ok, so I am still FINE with this. W! I watch the movie some more, go to bed, he is asleep.
gonna save now since puter boots me sometimes. continued...
So, he is getting ready to leave for work and I asked very calmly if he wanted to go out with his friends tonight. he asked why, and I basically said that if we weren't going to talk to each other then why spend the eve. together? (but i really said it diplomatically somehow) and i wanted to make it easy for him if he did.
He said that he was curious about what I said to his mom, that I said I couldn't do this anymore and asked if i could summarize in 5 min. Well, no, not really! i just said that i was tired of taking the blame for EVERYTHING that goes wrong in our r, that of the past 4+ years, I find it hard to believe that I have caused 99.999% of the probs. I said that I am totally willing to accept responsibility for what I do wrong, that yes, I know I still f up a lot, but that I am doing much better, the time is farther apart. (used to be every 2-3 days, now it's every 1-3 weeks) and that the arguments aren't nearly what they used to be-several hours into the night, screaming, him walking out of the house, me chasing him in the driveway, etc. He said that that is b/c HE decided that he just wasn't going to get into it w/me that much. I said, "ok, so we have BOTH done better." (I did preface this with I want our M to work and I love you and I think you are a great, wonderful man.)
I told him that I dont' feel like a team b/c of this my money your money, my probs, your probs, my dogs, your puter, etc. He asked how he could be a team if I was not part of the team, that I ruin things. I said, ok, i DO understand, but I am still WORKING on it. He started his, "well you know things go better if you are more on track, and you know i try more when you are doing better..." He asked why he should try, he did for a long time and it didn't work. I said things are much diff. now and that that was like 2 years ago that he decided to "quit trying" and that m is a life-long process, you don't just quit.
but, i also said that i understand about him needing to defend himself, but that just b/c i cry it DOES NOT mean that I am going to attack him. I said, I HAVE depression, I HAVE to take meds, it runs in the fam., but i DO know that a lot of my issues are environmental too. I acknowledged that my approach stinks a lot of the time and that I have poor control over my emo's, but i am working on it. Sorry if it isn't good enough for you.
I also said that I have my frustrations too, and that even though he has acknowledged that he is "difficult" a long time ago, he doesn't say I'm sorry for being non-communicative, or grumpy at the time. He doesn't address it. (Per previous convo. I just need to "deal" with his 'tude b/c this is what I have created and I need to fix it and he will treat me better on his time). I said it is v. difficult to deal w/him sometimes when he can't even give me a y or n answer to a simple q. Do you want to eat out or for me to cook? what do you want for din? do you want to go here or here? do you want to have sex? , etc. eeeeeeeerrgg! Sometimes I can visualize hitting my head against the wall over and over again!
I also said that I can handle his feelings (he thinks he can't share them w/me), and that how do i know what they are b/c he won't share them? I have no indication of what is going on with him, what he is feeling, and the last i heard he didn't know if he wanted to be with me or not. (about 8 mos. ago)
WOW! That was a lot said in 5 min, no? ok, so it ended up being 10.
**I am going to approach this q. b/s with him in a diff. way. For example, (like many of you have said before) just say, i'm going here, would you like to go? Or, just make all of the decisions!! "I would like to go to Squirrly Bob's for dinner. I would like to play pool tonight. I would like to go for a walk," etc. instead of this what do you want to do crap and trying to fill in the frickin' blanks for him!!! do you want to do this this or this? apparently, these Q's are extremely difficult for him. And yes, I AM agreeing with whatever he picks in an enthusiastic tone. I would veto no more, and he felt foolish, but I DO NOT anymore and haven't in a LONG time.
I guess to me, some of my errors have been long ago, but to him, they are still v. fresh in his mind. ie me getting jealous at a party or bar. ok, that's been since the beginning of last summer, and we have gone to several parties and bars since then, just not nightclubs.
I really am going to take care of myself. I don't feel indignant. I know it was very risky to do this. I am really excited about climbing again-I mean REALLY excited. I am also looking into getting dog restraints for my truk and plan to spend more time with them.
I am tired of feeling bad all of the time about myself and b/c of the probs. I have caused. I just ain't doin' it anymore!!
He gave me a nice O goodbye-long and hard. i said ily, he said ilyt.
Hi, I had my phone consult w/Joann. It was v. inspiring. I couldn't write fast enough! Some is repeats of what she had said before and what others here have told me. So, I think it is time to listen.
I shall summarize in the hopes that someone else will get something out of it:
Happy people think differently about sit's and what people say than unhappy people. Must turn - thinking into + thinking, and if it is too hard to make it +, then make it a little better. What I focus on will increase. ie. if I'm looking for ways that h doesn't care about me, then I will find them. If I look for + and emphasize them, the happiness and + sit. will increase. Change the way I look at things. Read "Feeling Good" by Burns to id. cognitive distortions and work on some homeworky stuff every day. Focus on EVERY small sign that things are going in the right direction.
Argue with myself to change thinking patterns, challenge myself, GET OUT OF MY OWN WAY!
Do not JUDGE what h says. What it means to him & what it means to me may be 2 diff. things. Challenge thinking. If I am feeling bad about something, I am having distorted thoughts. I'm damaging my SELF by thinking - things.
Best way to get someone to change is by + enforcement. If h is modest and does something I appreciate, say so, but don't go overboard. He may get scared and back off. (esp. if he is modest.)
For me: quit asking h questions. It's not working. The more I ask, the less he will answer. Think of his "I don't cares" as him being easy-going and be happy about that! I will start saying what I want and he objects, he can object. I will just make din. w/o asking him what he wants. (I have already been doing this). Say, "I'm going here. Would you like to go? If not, be FINE w/it, do not act upset or pissy and say happily, "ok, I'll see ya later!"
If I change for a while and then backslide, he will think that I am not changing.
W & M show love differently. Women are more communication/saying oriented whereas men are more action/doing oriented. Look at the ways that HE is showing love in HIS way and learn to appreciate it.
If I really want to get what I want, I need to keep biting my tongue and do something diff. Predict that he might say something that upsets me and plan to think differenty ahead of time. What could make me think more +?
things that help me: Taking charge w/my emo's and life, doing what I want to do even if he doesn't, being more active, not jumping to the worst conclusions (make BETTER conclusions), walk dogs, keep house neat, acting secure in myself, being independent, being more relaxed, being playful and joking w/h. (Don't take him seriously)
Take note of ALL progess, make a gratitude checklist. ie. I changed this thought, any small sign that he is making effort for the r.
Whenever we "need" something, people naturally don't want to give it to us.
I can get him to change by changing myself on a consistent basis! When things are going well, don't let myself get in my own way. What I'm doing/not doing saying/not saying affects him. How so? Id. when he is less moody, when he wants to ML, etc. If having good days, keep doing what works.
Find other things to get self-esteem from other than the r or how he is treating me like work, friends, hobbies, etc.
Alright, I think that is it. I have a plan now. Gonna go read some Feeling Good first. I know Pam - I told ya' so!
Girl I am so proud of you!!!! You handled the convo with your H in such a dignified and calm manner and got your point across without a backslide in sight! Yea Karen!!! Yep, convos like that ARE risky but you did well. Sometimes we get to a point we can't kiss their behind anymore and we HAVE to tell them what we want and need. It can go either way.
Glad to hear your consult with Joann went well and you have some ammo to work with. You can do this!
Hey what book are you and Pam talking about? Is it worth a read? Let me know. You take care and God bless!!! Debi
Sat. didn't exactly put my ammo. to work. Got a little upset, but talked about it in a much more non-accusatory way than I normally would have. So, it turned out ok.
Sunday was cool. Went out to eat bfast (h's choice & h ironed and wore a nice shirt, nice shoes), went for a bike ride in the mud (uh...little dirty!), and came home, took a nap, went out to din. (h shaved) Later, h init. ML! Great! You might think I'm queer for noting his efforts in appearance, but sometimes I think that he only gets spiffy/shaves for going out w/the guys...
He told me he is going out Sat. & I said that I might be going out Friday. Later I asked if I went out Friday would he switch days or would we go out separately? My plans Friday are not concrete. He asked about that. Don't know what will happen at this point. I feel like we should prob. spend the time apart as it seems to help him feel better about us, but then I get that scaredy feeling. I know this is not good.
I found this on the WEB: Proponents of cognitive therapy, based on the work of Aaron Beck and others, believe that by changing the way we think we can have a profound effect on the way we feel.(6) In Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy, David Burns outlines 10 common mistakes in thinking, which he calls cognitive distortions.(7) These distortions are explained here in the context of post cult recovery.
1. All-or-nothing thinking: Cults teach black-and-white thinking, such as “Everyone outside the group is controlled by Satan or is evil,” “The leader is God and cannot make mistakes,” “You must always strive for perfection in order to reach the group’s goal.” Such thinking stifles personal growth and keeps a person pitted against the rest of the world.
2. Overgeneralization: Simply making one mistake can cause a person to leap to the conclusion that the group’s predictions about dire consequences for those who leave are indeed coming true. Former members often have difficulty allowing themselves to make mistakes without hearing criticisms in their head. Reviewing actions at the end of the day, no matter how simple, can help counterbalance the internal cult “chatter.”
3. Mental filter: cults teach people to dwell on their mistakes and weaknesses. In many cults each day’s activities are reviewed, with concentration placed on any “sins” or wrongdoing. All thoughts, feelings, and behaviors are cause for criticism, prayer, and repenting. After such training, a person may obsess about a small mistake and lose sight of the positive things that are happening. Anything negative becomes a focus that filters out everything else.
4. Disqualifying the positive: One means of cult control is to not allow members to take pride in their achievements. All that is good comes from the Master, while members are made to feel stupid and inadequate. Making lists of personal strengths and accomplishments may counteract this reaction.
5. Jumping to conclusions: There are two forms of coming to a negative conclusion, which are probably familiar to ex-members:
(a) Mind reading: Those who were in New Age or Eastern cults may have been led to believe that mind reading is real. This belief is used to make assumptions about others. Doing the same now may be counterproductive. Don’t jump to conclusions about another person’s actions or attitudes. Don’t substitute assumptions for real communication.
(b) Fortune telling: Cults predict the failure of their critics, dissenters, and those who leave. Former members sometimes believe that depression, worry, or illness is sure to hound them (and their family) forever. Remember, such phobias and distortions have nothing to do with reality but have been instilled by the cult.
6. Magnification (catastrophizing) and minimization: Magnifying the members’ faults and weaknesses while minimizing strengths, assets, and talents is common. The opposite holds true for the leader. This trend has to be reversed in order to rebuild self-esteem, although reaching a balanced perspective may take time. Feedback from trustworthy, nonjudgmental friends may be helpful here.
7. Emotional reasoning: In groups that place emphasis on feeling over thinking, members learn to make choices and judge reality solely based on what they feel. This is true of all New Age groups and many transformational and psychology cults. Interpreting reality through feelings is a form of wishful thinking. If it really worked, we would all be wealthy and the world would be a safe and happy place. When this type of thinking turns negative, it can be a shortcut to depression and withdrawal: “I feel bad, worthless, and so on, therefore I am bad, worthless, and so on.”
8. “Should” statements: Cult beliefs and standards often continue to influence behavior in the form of shoulds, musts, have tos, and oughts. These words may be directed at others or at oneself-for example, thinking, “I should get out of bed.” The result is feeling pressured and resentful. Try to identify the source of these internal commands. Do they come from the former cult leader? Do you really want to obey him anymore?
9. Labeling and mislabeling: Ex-members put all kinds of negative labels on themselves for having been involved in a cult: stupid, jerk, sinner, crazy, bad, whore, no good, fool. Labeling oneself a failure for making a mistake (in this case, joining the cult) is mental horsewhipping. It is an overgeneralization, inaccurate, cruel, and, like the other cognitive distortions, untrue and self-defeating. Labeling others in this way is equally inaccurate and judgmental. If there must be labels, how about some positive ones?
10. Personalization: Burns calls this distortion “the mother of guilt.” A primary weapon of mind control is training members to believe that everything bad that happens is their fault. The guilt that accompanies this sort of personalizing is crippling and controlling. You are out of the cult now, so it is important only to take responsibility for what is yours.
These 10 cognitive errors are all habits of thinking that are deeply ingrained by the thought-reform processes and cult indoctrination. Tendencies toward these distortions may have been in place even before a person’s cult involvement, which may have enhanced vulnerability to recruitment and increased susceptibility to the cult’s practices. Given the habit of these kinds of destructive thinking patterns, is it any wonder that former cult members sometimes feel depressed? The good news is, like any habit, these patterns of thinking can be broken and discarded through awareness and practice.
From Captive Hearts: Captive Minds by Madeleine Tobias and Janja Lalich, Hunter House, 1994; 101-103
Need to start doing some homework. Anyone want to join me in changing our thinking patterns?? karen
). He washed dishes, folded laundry, etc. (he was on a mission-hey, this is good for something!) I did say hi to him in the kit. but did not x him. I asked if he wanted food and what movie it was that he wanted to watch. He shrugged said he didn't know if he wanted to eat. I asked how bout chix and he said ok. He didn't answer the q. about the movie. Ok, maybe he didn't hear me...i do speak softly. He said he couldn't remember, so ok, i'll pick then! 
