Not sure what to do

[Bob1967]

I'm married to a verbally and emotionally abusive woman. We were married in the Church. We’ve been married for 9 years. No children. The first 5 years were good. Then her true colors came out.

She started calling me names like “loser” and “stupid.” I told her to stop. She wouldn’t. I said I would divorce her if she didn’t stop verbally abusing me. After I brought up divorce she called me names every time we argued. Like she was daring me to divorce her.

After a weekend of fighting I got tired of taking her crap and moved out.

I cut off communication and immediately filed for divorce.

She refused to sign the divorce papers and demanded we see a marriage counselor. I agreed because I thought it would do some good. We attended one session. It was a disaster. My wife refused to take responsibility for her abuse.

I left the counseling session and hired an attorney.

When my wife received notice I was proceeding with a divorce without her consent she begged me to come home. She agreed to go to counseling and get help for her anger. I dropped the divorce and moved home.

Everything was fine for about a month and then her rage started again. She blamed me for ruining our marriage and turned the marriage counselor against me. For the next year I lived in a constant state of fear. Almost daily my wife told me how I ruined our lives.

We have seen four different counselors. None of them have been able to help us.

About a month ago my wife told me she read my emails.

She was angry because she thought I was saying inappropriate things about her to my friends. I was alarmed to learn she was invading my private space. I changed all my passwords immediately.

This enraged my wife. She said I changed my passwords because I was hiding something. She accused me of having a girlfriend.

I said I changed my passwords because I don’t want her snoping into my private life.

I can’t take my wife anymore. Her anger. Her controlling behavior. It’s too much. I want to be married but I need peace. I don't know what to do.

[Cristy]

Sadly, couples therapy can often be a bad idea. Michele has a great link regarding couples therapy. Please watch it here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXTMw85jpks&feature=youtu.be

I strongly urge you to speak to a Divorce Busting coach as soon as possible. There is much that can be done. Call me to discuss our coaching program. 303-444-7004 Cristy

[Bob1967]

Thanks Cristy. I watched a lot of the video's on you.tube. Maybe you can send that link to my wife.

She says I'm passive/aggressive.

I had to move out. I don't know what to do. M wife is always seems angry at me. I refuse to engage her when she attacks and that sends her into a rage.

She says I don't love her. I do. But I'm not going to reward her bad behavior.

Every night I pray and ask God to change her but I don't think He is listening. She is convinced that I am having an affair and no matter how much I deny the accusation I can't change her mind. She refuses to listen to me. I think divorce will become only option.

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks Cristy. I watched a lot of the video's on you.tube. Maybe you can send that link to my wife.


Bob, I get the feeling you have NOT read the Div Busting or Divorce Remedy books? You need to do that b/c the very first thing the books hammer into your head is that YOU CANNOT CHANGE YOUR WIFE....you can only work on YOU.

If that is not something you are interested in doing (i.e. doing what works) then you need another site. THIS SITE is "solution based" so we don't re-hash marital histories for long, or blame the other spouse (the one NOT here to defend themselves) and we focus on the one person we CAN help, i.e. the one here...that is YOU.

YOU will have to change for your m to change. That does not mean your wife won't, of course she will. But HERE< we advise the partners who want the m to work, to take the first step and the 2nd, and the 3rd and next 4062- steps b/c the person here on this site, is the ONE working on the M and we cannot do a thing about that, except help the LBS model healthy behavior for the partner who wants to leave.


So ead the book(s) and make sure you "get" the concepts therein so that this site can help you.

WE use the terms and concepts from the books HERE. So if you don't read one of the books, this won't come naturally to you.

Make sense? If you go to another Marriage counselor you MUST ask them if they are "solution based" b/c there IS a difference. OR go to a workshop for a long weekend and get the continuity those retreats/workshops provide.

Otherwise even good therapy can be "fragmented"...





She says I'm passive/aggressive.

I had to move out. I don't know what to do. M wife is always seems angry at me. I refuse to engage her when she attacks and that sends her into a rage.


If you refuse to engage her, she can only rage for so long, alone. Just leave the area and you won't even know she's raging. Also, are there reasons she is angry at you or would you prefer just saying "She's always angry" and never looking into reasons for it?

Notice how I'm NOT spending time telling you how to "get" her to change?

I'm advising YOU to remove yourself AND OR to change YOU. B/c that is something you know you CAN do and thus, it's empowering.

It's empowering b/c your behavior IS within your control whereas hers, is not.


She says I don't love her. I do. But I'm not going to reward her bad behavior.

What does "reward" her bad behavior mean?

Are you with holding of affection or kindness or HER love languages?

Also, on one hand I want to suggest you read every book on relationships that you can, but on the other hand, I feel like saying "NO, don't read EVERY book on marriage if they have different approaches - b/c that confuses YOU and your spouse!"

But a reliably helpful book that is an easy read is "The Five Love Languages" and that really does remind us that our spouses give AND receive love in different ways and that while WE might think we have shown our spouses' our love, if it is not in their "love language" they may not believe we love them.

Their love tanks might be empty. Example: if your wife's love language is "words of affirmation" and you are not a big one for giving compliments (b/c maybe your family was very quiet or critical??)

then SHE may not FEEL loved by you. Even though you think you are "showing" her love b/c your love language for giving love might be physical touch.

It's not how your wife RECEIVES love, but it's how you give it. Neither of you is "wrong"m but you both need to learn how your partner "hears" your love language and whether you are giving it to your spouse in their lingo.

My h is a physical touch person and he likes words of affirmation. I"m an "acts of service" wife (when he gets my car's oil changed, I feel loved!).

We are NOW on the same page a lot more.

Read the books, begin to GAL (that means Get A Life) and that means YOU get yourself involved in some FUN rewarding activities of your own, with new friends or people who do not remind you of your w, and you LEARN new things, meet new people and you Get A Life that is happy, with or without her.

It's not a game to get her back, but it does make you more attractive to her. Let's face it, a pouting spouse is not an attractive spouse, a wounded spouse who whines and clings, even if they have the "right" to feel as they do, is NOT attractive.

So, do what works, do not do what does not work. That is something that seems so obvious yet all of us here, have gone down "cheese less tunnels" time and time again.

I know you have. Read the books and keep posting here and repeat to yourself MANY times a day, "I cannot control my w, only myself. So what am I doing today to improve MYSELF and or MY Life?"

"What can I create for myself today?"

And do TAKE IN, what we say here.

Do not gloss over the posts looking for a "secret" sentence or two that fixes all this.

This marriage restoration, it's a marathon, not a sprint.


Every night I pray and ask God to change her but I don't think He is listening.


I strongly suggest you

Pray to God that he CHANGES YOU.

You are all you control. Focus on yourself and your own shortcomings. (Remember the quote about the plank in your eye and the speck in our mate's?
That quote is very helpful NOW and HERE)

Surely you have issues and traits you would like to improve upon? (B/c you are human, you are flawed). So What are they? (You don't have to tell US, but you do have to identify areas you need to work on in yourself).

What do you need to work on to

become a man, that only a fool would leave?

Off the top of my head, I think you could learn how to set boundaries & you could work on that, starting now.....

How to assert yourself in healthy ways, not in anger or b/c your ego is wounded and NOT to be punitive....but to protect yourself and to set a model of self respect.

AND OR, how to model calm strong adult behavior ---so your wife can see what mature adults communicate like, from watching you....




She is convinced that I am having an affair and no matter how much I deny the accusation I can't change her mind. She refuses to listen to me. I think divorce will become only option.

What are YOU willing to DO -- to help make your m a healthy one?

What negatives would YOUR WIFE SAY if she were here, about you?

What of those ^^ complaints, have any validity to them? So, why not begin working on those?

HER own work will come later down the road. Do You know why we only focus on you?

B/c SHE IS NOT HERE WORKING ON THE M! YOU arez1....

or are you looking for permission to leave your wife? You don't need ours.

But if there is something you can do to turn this around, wouldn't you want to know?

I think by placing this ALL on her shoulders, you are absolving yourself of any responsibility for any problems. Frankly, it would terrify me to believe I had been a great wife, and still, my h mistreated me and left me.

I say that b/c if I'm so great AND he still wants out, then I'm truly powerless.
I did my best and still lost.

But if I played a role in my h's choices, I want to know. B/C I can change ME, and that means I can reduce the chances of this happening again.

And I CAN control more of how MY life goes...and so can you.


Bob if, at some level, allowing yourself to be treated this way means you have a few issues of low self esteem, etc?

I mean, we only get treated as badly as we allow ourselves to be.

Why do you believe you let this happen for so long?

Why aren't you afraid it will keep happening -- and it will--IF you do nothing different.

Which is why I'm asking what YOU are working on in YOU?

And keep posting!!

[Cristy]

I'm sorry you are going through such a hard time. The best advice I can give you is to call a Divorce Busting Coach today. Divorce Busting coaches will give you the best advice on how to save your marriage and get things moving in a more positive direction. Please call me to discuss our coaching program 303-444-7004

[25yearsmlc]

PS

Just so I know I'm being clear, you MUST READ THE BOOK(S) that forms the basis of this site,

or you'll get much LESS out of this approach and out of this site.

It won't make nearly as much sense as it would if you read the book. And it sort of wastes our time b/c so many people post here who DID read the books and know what we mean, so, DO read one or both of the foundational books, okay?

And reading a book to save your m, is surely not too much to ask.

Bob, you have a defeatist attitude that will NOT help you. Shoot, you almost sound as if you think you waited too long to come here--- and perhaps you did, but the thing is,

you cannot know that until you truly TRY the divorce busting methods. That takes more than a week or two.

How will she know if she can trust your changes enough to show some of her own?

Bob, Do the "math"...on

YOUR END, which means...

consistent change + sufficient time = change she can believe in.

And visa versa

Do give this a try. It's a different approach, but it has a lot of success, comparatively speaking.

And if you can get your wife to Retrovaille, (a weekend retreat for marriages in crisis) it does amazing things to help couples change dramatically. They have a follow up support program as well, for which they don't charge anything. It's an excellent way to spend a weekend...very worthwhile.

I think it would do you both a lot of good. We found it very useful and we got some tools for a situation we had not had before.

That's b/c right as we began to piece and reconcile, h's mother was diagnosed as terminally ill...so yes, I knew we needed NEW tools for what was coming.

Thank God we went to Retrovaille, bc another couple there, (one of the "team" couples) had that exact issue from their m...which they worked thru! We often know what NOT to do, from our parents. But what we lack, sometimes, are positive role models to replace the bad behaviors with healthy choices.

I feel as if we got some tools at Retrovaille and another personal growth workshop ("Essential Experience" in Philadelphia, aka "EE")

AND we found some great positive role models for happy healthy marriages. THANK GOD.

So, keep on keeping on and keep posting and DO read the book (either of them or both. If you only read one, I'd read the Div Remedy book b/c it's slightly more updated.)

However the first edition (div busting) gives a LOT of data about how harmful divorce is. But you probably already know that.

Hang in there, I gave my marriage a "10% chance of success" in 2006...so it can look hopeless and NOT be hopeless.

Oh, one "tip" for now, Be a lot more careful about throwing out the word "Divorce" too easily. I think it's very destructive. And there are times when it's said in anger (a lot of times)

and then the person who wished they could retract, is sort of stuck "having to follow thru" on a threat they never should have made in the first place.

That's crazy but it happens all the time. So, be cautious with word choice.
And do keep us posted.

((( )))

[Paz2014]

Hi Bob,

I'm sorry you found yourself seeking help on this site. It's a great site to get support but I'm sorry you're here. Also, we feel for you and your pain. So hang in there because it's gonna be a bumpy ride.

About a month ago my wife told me she read my emails.

This enraged my wife. She said I changed my passwords because I was hiding something. She accused me of having a girlfriend.

Why did she snoop? Sounds like there's a trust issue. Did happen something happen?

I said I changed my passwords because I don’t want her snoping into my private life.

This made me cringe. What I'm about to say is based on my experience and my honest opinion. In a M there is no private life. You guys are married for crying out loud! What's a M without out total and complete transparency? All you did with that statement was push her away and consequently fueled her anger. I get that you were trying to avoid her anger and she probably shouldn't have snooped but she did for a reason. Tell us what you think that may/could be.

She says I'm passive/aggressive.

This says a lot. If this is what she's thinking I can kind of understand where her anger may be coming from. There's nothing more frustrating to me than a passive-aggressive male. What do you think you are or have been doing that's making her say these things about you? Have you listened to her complaints about what was wrong in the M? What were they?

She says I don't love her. I do. But I'm not going to reward her bad behavior.

This is also another strong statement. It seems that whatever method you are using to communicate your love for her is not in her language. Have you read "The Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman? And, I agree that you shouldn't reward bad behavior. How did you respond to her statement? Was she met with more resistance from you? Did you wall her off?

I had to move out. I don't know what to do. M wife is always seems angry at me. I refuse to engage her when she attacks and that sends her into a rage.

Disengaging is a sign of poor conflict management and yes, I would be enraged too. This would be considered a passive approach. She's clearly trying to tell you something albeit in the least productive way but you're disengaged. Refusing to to engage her equals ignoring her. I'm not saying to just sit there and let her give you a beating. I'm saying you have a lot more control than you realize. Do you just walk away or sit there and say nothing? Or could you perhaps have said, "I sense that you're very upset about something and I want to understand what that is. I love you and care for you and want to be there for you. However, it's difficult for me to open up when you're...(insert that negative behavior.) We can continue this conversation once we're both calm."

You leaving the house to save your sanity is not a bad move. I just hope that you didn't leave to make her even more angry but that you truly needed it for yourself. Start doing some soul searching and figure what changes you need to make. Figure out from her complaints that things that weren't working for you and pray that God change what's in your heart first not just hers. This is gonna sound like a broken record and you will see it many times on this site...you can't control what she does/think/feel/react but YOU CAN control you. So work on you!

On a different note, when you come on here you will receive a lot of advice. Some good, some not so good, and a lot conflicting ones. We can offer you all the advice in the world but you will have to be the judge of what applies in your situation.

Lastly, if you can afford it do try the DB coaching. They're the experts. They are emotionally removed from your situation and can therefore offer sound advice. Use them for relationship advice and you have us as a supplement. If you haven't already, find a counselor to start working on YOURSELF. Notice I said "you" and not your M. You gotta figure out what you need to change to be a better partner in you M. But what about you W and her crap? Remember...you can only control you. There will be a time for her later...perhaps much, much later than you'd like.

If this does not work out between the two of you--you will at least walk away a better person. Yeah, that doesn't sound comforting but as you get further into this journey and start to accept that things you can't change and let those go, your head will be clearer and you won't be as bothered or affected by her behaviors. You'll find your strength and dignity again. Post often if you need to.

[Cristy]

Thanks for the vote of confidence CMF! Bob-I strongly urge you to speak to a Divorce Busting coach as soon as possible. There is much that can be done. Call me to discuss our coaching program. 303-444-7004 Cristy

[Bob1967]

Thanks for the information everyone.

25yearsmic: I agree with you. My wife can only rage for so long. And I do what you suggest. I always leave the area. In fact this is why I moved out. I couldn’t take her anger anymore.

Maybe I used the wrong choice of words when I said I don’t want to “reward her bad behavior.”

What I should have said is my when my wife started arguments I should have walked away instead of engaging her. I think this was my biggest mistake when I lived at home. She would start a fight and instead of leaving I would try to calm her down. But nothing ever calmed her down.

Even when I would say, “I completely agree with you. You are 100% right.” She would reply, “I don’t want you to agree with me.”

How do you survive in that kind of environment?

I don’t think I withhold affection or kindness from my wife. I say I love her every day when she leaves for work. But to be honest I don’t want a physical relationship with her.

The first time I left her was a year ago.

Since moving home we’ve only had sex once.

She tried to initiate sex with me more often but I’m not interested. I’m pretty up front about my reason. I told her she wounded me deeply with her words and I don’t know if I can commit to this marriage. Without commitment I don’t want to have sex. I think it messes up the decision-making process.

My wife has brought up the Love Languages book. She has also brought up the Language of the Apology. I read both. I think I have spoken to my wife in her “love language.” But it still doesn’t matter. I think she is just a very angry person.

I don’t think the issue is being more attractive to her. My wife has made it clear she doesn’t want a divorce. In fact she refuses to divorce me (we are Catholics). I also didn’t want to give the impression that I’m a pouting spouse. I’m not.

My wife wants me to move back home. She begs me to move back home. I can go home anytime I want.
But I don’t think this is the best route to go. If I go home she will be angry and abusive again. I went back home last year and she didn’t change.

I understand “changing my wife” isn’t the objective on this site but unless she stops yelling and name-calling I won’t go home. So divorce is my only option.

This breaks my heart because I don’t want a divorce and neither does she.

When you say I should set boundaries I think this is what I did by moving out. I feel I am drawing a line in the sand by saying, “No more verbal abuse.”

I don’t want to go to Retrovaille or anything with my wife yet. Like I said, I don’t want to reward her bad behavior. I think she would see a weekend retreat for marriages in crisis as a “weekend getaway.” Which means the next time she wants a vacation she will start acting out. I know it sounds crazy but I can’t take this chance.

I did watch all the you.tube videos of Michelle Weiner-Davis and they were very informative.

To CMF: I’m not sure why my wife was reading my emails. She confronted me after she read an email from a high school buddy who told me to divorce her. It was from an email account she didn’t know about. She said, “What are you telling people about me!” And I said, “Quit snooping through my stuff.”

Then I changed my passwords.

Two days later she stomped into the bedroom holding my laptop. She wanted to know why I put a security lock on it. Again, I told her to quit snooping through my stuff. She threw my laptop at me and told me I had two choices: I could quit lying to her or I could leave.

I gave her a couple of weeks to calm down but she would not calm down. She told me either I took the security lock off my computer or I move out.

So I moved out.

I don’t think I am passive/aggressive. I think I am a very calm and rationale person. It is my wife who has the anger issues.

I will agree I am not the best husband. And I will admit I could do things much better in the relationship.

I would love to go to a DB coach. But it is impossible to even get to square one right now. She would love to go to marriage counseling. She likes telling the counselors how terrible I am. She is very manipulative. After 3-4 sessions marriage counselors are on her side and it becomes the Bob-bashing hour where I get to listen to everyone tell me what a terrible husband I am.

I am really hurt. I don’t know if I can adequately express how wounded I am by her words. She is verbally abusive. She calls screams at me and calls me names. I never do this to her. I have always treated her with respect. I don’t know what a victim of domestic violence feels like but I’m pretty sure it is something like this.

I have drawn a line in the sand. I won’t go home again until she accepts her anger problem and seeks help for the way she emotionally abuses me. If I go back on my word she will never respect me. I feel trapped.

I can’t go backward and I don’t know how to go forward. I just feel hopeless.

She insists that she has apologized. She insists that she is working on her communication skills but I don’t see change. Last week I saw her for the first time in a week. It was the first time we had spoken all week and of course we got into a screaming match. And she said she couldn’t believe “anyone could be this stupid.”

My jaw dropped.

She still wasn’t getting it.

The minute we start fighting she launches right back into familiar patterns. It’s like living with the enemy.

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks for the information everyone.

25yearsmic: I agree with you. My wife can only rage for so long. And I do what you suggest. I always leave the area. In fact this is why I moved out. I couldn’t take her anger anymore.

Always? See below...

Maybe I used the wrong choice of words when I said I don’t want to “reward her bad behavior.”

What I should have said is my when my wife started arguments I should have walked away instead of engaging her. I think this was my biggest mistake when I lived at home. She would start a fight and instead of leaving I would try to calm her down. But nothing ever calmed her down.

Even when I would say, “I completely agree with you. You are 100% right.” She would reply, “I don’t want you to agree with me.”

How do you survive in that kind of environment?

I don’t think I withhold affection or kindness from my wife. I say I love her every day when she leaves for work. But to be honest I don’t want a physical relationship with her.


You just said you did not with hold affection, but in the next sentence it's clear that you do exactly that.

Try to see things, if not from HER POV, then at least from ours. You come here and basically tell us your wife is horrible, you are not, and so you must get a divorce.

You have "waited for HER to change" and she has not. (Not a surprise to us, but that's another story).

She is not here trying to save the m, and (supposedly) you are, so we cannot help HER change.

The problem I see here is two fold. ON one hand, I think you really won't or can't look honestly at yourself to identify issues and flaws you truly need to work on, (which would mean we cannot help you b/c that's all we are here to do, help the one HERE working on the marriage, not the one we never meet or hear from)

and 2, that you are not actually here to work on saving your marriage, but rather that you just want us to give you permission to leave her.

You certainly sounds as if you listen to people who "side" with you (as opposed to siding with the marriage) a lot more than you want advice to save your m.

It's not our job to advise divorce. We can't stop you from filing (we don't always say not to) plus you'll do what you want to do anyhow.

Bottom line:

We are here to help people change THEMSELVES. If that is of interest to you, then you need to listen up and take in what we tell you; not just skim it for nuggets and moving on but processing the "data" we send to you...take it in! Reflect.

DIG DEEPER...and bravely b/c this Div Busting site takes BRAVE WORK...it takes bravery to get married and staying married takes even more bc it means seeing ourselves and all our flaws and working on them anyhow, trusting that our spouse will love us, warts and all and that we shall do our best to love them, warts and all....

To be clear, I'm not mad or trying to be a jerk to you. I just sense A LOT of resistance to YOU doing anything new or different. You are saying point blank it's ALL HER & HER anger...and we can't do a thing to change HER...

so if you will not or cannot change YOU, you should move onto another site.


The first time I left her was a year ago.

What CHANGED while you were apart?

What tools did you get for better communication, or improvements in the marriage, did you get while apart?

In other words, how did you work on the marriage so that when you reconciled, things improved?

It sounds as if you did not do any personal work, and or - you simply hoped you had "taught her a lesson" by leaving. That magically things would get better on their own??

But things did not improve b/c neither of you changed...is that a fair assessment?



Since moving home we’ve only had sex once.

She tried to initiate sex with me more often but I’m not interested.



WOW....So, Are you complaining about only having sex once,

OR are you explaining, that it's because YOU don't want it?

How do you think your wife Feels about being rejected so much lately?

Dig Deep

Bob, how do you think SHE FEELS about that?

And what would SHE SAY the problems in the marriage were, if she were here?

Do you see any validity to any of her complaints about you?

Are there a few traits you would like to improve upon?

What are you working on in yourself to become a man only a fool would leave?

Have you read the Dib Busting or Div Remedy Book(s)? If not, why not? We advise people not to mix up a bunch of different approaches b/c then you won't be fair to any of them, and ours takes some time. Not just a week or two,

but real TIME to process a new way of seeing things and a NEW different way of reacting.

I also ask if you read the DB books b/c they form the basis of this site and you'll get MUCH MUCH more out of what we say - if you have read those books.



I’m pretty up front about my reason. I told her she wounded me deeply with her words and I don’t know if I can commit to this marriage. Without commitment I don’t want to have sex. I think it messes up the decision-making process.


Then what is it you want from her NOW?

I mean, on one hand it's YOU who won't commit and it's YOU who won't be intimate without commitment, so what is she supposed to "do" with this?

I get the feeling you are punishing her. Yes I really do. So, How was forgiveness modeled in your childhood?

Are you interested in learning how to forgive? OR in how to ask for forgiveness?

I don't believe ANY marriage can last long without at least one partner doing some heavy duty forgiveness, usually both sides do...or they cannot stay married.


My wife has brought up the Love Languages book. She has also brought up the Language of the Apology. I read both. I think I have spoken to my wife in her “love language.”

Does not matter what you believe about that, it's what SHE feels that counts in this. Does SHE think and feel that you give her love in HER love language?

I mean if she gave you the book, she had hopes of YOU doing something different... so, isn't it clear that her language was NOT being spoken?

Hey, Why not just ask her how to speak in her LL?



But it still doesn’t matter. I think she is just a very angry person.

Maybe so...OR maybe, just maybe, you want to quit - and blame her...that is certainly the vibe I'm getting from you.

That you do not want to do the work. I mean, that is at least possible, right?

I don’t think the issue is being more attractive to her. My wife has made it clear she doesn’t want a divorce.
In fact she refuses to divorce me (we are Catholics). I also didn’t want to give the impression that I’m a pouting spouse. I’m not.

A few of these statements don't really follow. What does attractiveness have to do with not wanting a divorce for religious reasons?

Also, "She refuses to give me a divorce" makes no sense, if you are in the USA. The state grants divorces, not the spouses. That has been true since the 1970s, so she cannot force you to stay married to her, if you don't want to be.

I'm going to repeat that for emphasis, she cannot force you to stay married to her. So don't let that be an excuse for staying stuck and staying miserable.



My wife wants me to move back home. She begs me to move back home. I can go home anytime I want.

So what are you doing INSTEAD of that? I mean, how are YOU working on things?

If she is as bad as you say, and if there is actually NOTHING YOU can do to improve, what's your question?

But I don’t think this is the best route to go. If I go home she will be angry and abusive again. I went back home last year and she didn’t change.


How about YOU? Did you change at all? If you feel YOU did not need to change, and if she felt the same way, then it's predictable that you are here again...and you will be again if that continues.

I get the feeling there is a "mexican Standoff and you want HER to change first and she wants YOU to change first and so, neither of you will AND you will both keep your scorecards handy to keep a record of wrongs, (Which we are told not to do when we marry, but which so many of us still keep doing....)


I understand “changing my wife” isn’t the objective on this site but unless she stops yelling and name-calling I won’t go home. So divorce is my only option.

Why does your wife yell and call you names? Why do the marriage counselors all believe her and not you? Are you a person who does not express his ideas clearly or coherently? IS English your second language?

I only ask b/c you blame her for convincing marriage counselors for believing her and not you but if you speak up for yourself that is not really possible...UNLESS she is coming off as having a point and you simply cannot bear to belive that you have flaws to work on...

I mean, isn't that at least theoretically possible?


This breaks my heart because I don’t want a divorce and neither does she.


Up above^^^, you said "SHE refuses to give me a divorce"....which implied that you wanted one, but now here ^^ you say you do not.

I'm confused. Do YOU or do you NOT want a divorce?

When you say I should set boundaries I think this is what I did by moving out. I feel I am drawing a line in the sand by saying, “No more verbal abuse.”

I don’t want to go to Retrovaille or anything with my wife yet.

In my opinion, this^^ is petty, punitive and very misguided. Retrovaille gives you both TOOLS for improving your marriage. You seem to think that is a "reward" to her.

That's a place to Work On your marriage; that's what it is. I've been. I know what I'm talking about. No one will tell her she is right and you are "wrong". IT's about solving your problems, not hiding from them until she says the magic phrase or decodes what it is you want, like a grand apology written in the sky.

Marriage takes work on BOTH SIDES and you need help. Don't come here and tell us you "wish" you could stay married but SHE WON'T change and then say you won't to go a marriage workshop retreat (it's NO picnic at Retrovaille. If you believe it's a "marriage encounter" then you have the wrong impression. Retrovaille took some HARD WORK. It's humbling.


Like I said, I don’t want to reward her bad behavior. I think she would see a weekend retreat for marriages in crisis as a “weekend getaway.” Which means the next time she wants a vacation she will start acting out. I know it sounds crazy but I can’t take this chance.

You're right, it does sound crazy. In fact, this ^^ is one one of the strangest things I've read here. Ever.

HOW can you believe YOU are doing anything GOOD or healthy (or loving) for your marriage by NOT getting help??? How does it "reward" HER?? You mean b/c you might go and have to do an ounce or work or that if you go you don't believe she will do the work? I mean, you either have a gross misconception about what Retrovaille is (not a Honeymoon cruise)

or you are too proud to budge an inch and are not done punishing her.


And how on earth you believe she'll somehow decide to be MEAN to you again BECAUSE she attended a marriage retreat...OMG i can't even deal with this. I'm baffled and speechless by this!

To be clear, I've gone to Retrovaille with my h! It's hard work - but it works miracles! It's one of 3 HARD things we did that enabled us to stay married...

It is for marriages in crisis.

If YOU & your w do not attend it, and just keep going as you are now, you WILL divorce. Or both stay miserable b/c you both lack the tools for a healthy relationship.

Without something major intervening in your m, you guys are on the road to divorce (This presumes that at least half of what you say here is true...)

You both lack the tools for a healthy R and didn't get any last time you separated so why would this separation end any better? It's clear to me that you BOTH lack the tools b/c of what YOU have told us here, like about 'not rewarding her bad behavior", which shows me that you need some real help, b/c you hold grudges, you do not forgive, you judge her, you do not look in the mirror to look for flaws but only look at her for flaws, you are a "marital score keeper," a man who denies his wife affection or intimacy while telling people the opposite, a man who complains about no sex but then declares her undeserving of it, a man who refuses to attend a hard working marriage seminar weekend for marriages with serious trouble b/c he thinks it will "make" his wife mean to him....AND "reward her" somehow...in short, you portray yourself as a helpless victim of a big bullying wife...

To be clear, If what you say about her is true, of course she needs help as much as you do.

But in case you don't know this, you are by no means coming off as a healthy nice guy by what you've written here....sorry, but I thought you should know.

I did watch all the you.tube videos of Michelle Weiner-Davis and they were very informative.

To CMF: I’m not sure why my wife was reading my emails. She confronted me after she read an email from a high school buddy who told me to divorce her.

But you don't know why she read it? Really? My GUESS is it's b/c she felt threatened by a "friend" who advises divorce...and his advice is no doubt fueled by what you tell him so she probably feels a deep sense of betrayal b/c she knows you badmouthed her to your friend, and that eats away at HER trust of you...

You need to give us more credit for the experiences we have had here. I mean, you seem to think we won't figure out there's more to the story here than just what you say.

We can't help you nearly as much as we could if you were open and fully honest with us. That begins with you not deceiving yourself.

How deep have YOU dug into yourself to find out where you are falling short?



It was from an email account she didn’t know about. She said, “What are you telling people about me!” And I said, “Quit snooping through my stuff.”

Then I changed my passwords.

Two days later she stomped into the bedroom holding my laptop. She wanted to know why I put a security lock on it. Again, I told her to quit snooping through my stuff. She threw my laptop at me and told me I had two choices: I could quit lying to her or I could leave.

I gave her a couple of weeks to calm down but she would not calm down. She told me either I took the security lock off my computer or I move out.

So I moved out.

I don’t think I am passive/aggressive. I think I am a very calm and rationale person. It is my wife who has the anger issues.

Just so you know...
Most couples don't have passwords. Most don't hide their emails from their spouses and instead of explaining to her that you talked to a buddy about the marriage probelsma and told him your side of it and reassured her in some way that you were not badmouthing her to the universe, you insisted INSTEAD on just dismissing all of her concerns and all of HER Feelings.

Hey. I can see why she was hurt and felt betrayed and distrustful.

I see your pride & your resentment oozing out of you. She's not the only angry person in this marriage, by a long shot.

AND to be clear, you'd rather divorce her than change your passwords...hmm, nothing odd about that....


I will agree I am not the best husband. And I will admit I could do things much better in the relationship.

Like what? Can you name 2-3 specific flaws in you that you want to work on? Mistakes you have made and regret??


I would love to go to a DB coach. But it is impossible to even get to square one right now. She would love to go to marriage counseling. She likes telling the counselors how terrible I am. She is very manipulative. After 3-4 sessions marriage counselors are on her side and it becomes the Bob-bashing hour where I get to listen to everyone tell me what a terrible husband I am.

Marriage counselors can see thru manipulative behavior. Unless you are sitting there saying nothing, no MC is going to "take sides".
They do not tell someone they are "Right" or "Wrong".

It's possible your WIFE may bash you while she is there but the MC usually stops that. And if not, you need another MC. Did you go to another MC?

IF you went to more than one, and they both (or all of them, if more than 2) were "manipulated" into believing you were a terrible h, then I'm calling you on that claim. You cannot say "all the 'experts' were fooled" and expect us to believe they could all be tricked and that you are actually wonderful.
Especially b/c you do not sound wonderful HERE. You sound uber controlling and petty and resentful and very stubborn. I don't have a lot of hope for your situation b/c of you, not your w. You say SHE would love to go to counseling but YOU won't go b/c they will not think you are a great man/h. The MC's will say YOU have work to do...so you tell us,

who is the primary cause of trouble inside the marriage -- if you won't even seek out help for fear they'll all be "tricked/fooled" by your "manipulative" wife, and who is really deserting the marriage? Who is hurting whom?

The MC's are trained professionals. While your wife was "manipulating" them and they were being "fooled" by her, what were YOU saying to them???

Did you speak up or not? If you did not speak up, ask yourself WHY?

And if you did speak up, but the mc's still felt you had work to do on YOURSELF,

Then I think you need to dig a lot deeper and realize they have a point.

See, the real journey in life is an inward one.

Dig A LOT deeper , and when you want to know what should change in the marriage, look in the mirror and stay THERE -- and work on the person in the mirror.

You can model for your wife what self improvement looks like, and how people Can change if they are willing to.

Stop looking at her sandbox, stay in your own. Work on you so she feels safe to work on herself.

Lose the scorecard and drop the list of grievances you have.

Also I sense a lot of projection from you (in which you accuse her of a flaw you seem to have yourself) like all the anger and punitive behaviors....I don't know where hers is, but your anger is in this post and in all of your last ones.



I am really hurt. I don’t know if I can adequately express how wounded I am by her words. She is verbally abusive. She calls screams at me and calls me names. I never do this to her. I have always treated her with respect. I don’t know what a victim of domestic violence feels like but I’m pretty sure it is something like this.

I have drawn a line in the sand. I won’t go home again until she accepts her anger problem and seeks help for the way she emotionally abuses me. If I go back on my word she will never respect me. I feel trapped.



She cannot force you to stay married to her. You have no children, right? So, How are you trapped?

I can’t go backward and I don’t know how to go forward. I just feel hopeless.


You can go to Retrovaille, (it's a lot faster and more "efficient" than weekly sessions with a MC). You can get some IC for you,

AND OR file for divorce.

Or stay in limbo and keep playing the blame game, and staying stuck.

In any case, yes, you do have choices.


She insists that she has apologized.

So, why isn't that enough for you? What specific words do you want her to say? Can you tell her the sentences you want to hear?

If she says she apologized, what's the problem? Is she lying or do You want to hear it again? Then tell her you don't recall it or you need to hear it again and then a minute after she says it, you drop it.

Whatever she did or said, you cannot keep holding onto it. At some point you have to let it go. Do you agree with that?

Remember that in most wedding vows, (possibly yours??) we say

"...From this day forward"...and we need to mean that! Let go of the past.


She insists that she is working on her communication skills but I don’t see change.


How are your changes going? Do you have any 180s? What are your GAL? What do you think SHE would say about your own personal work, if she were here?

And btw, did we establish whether you have read the books that form the basis of the site?


Last week I saw her for the first time in a week. It was the first time we had spoken all week and of course we got into a screaming match. And she said she couldn’t believe “anyone could be this stupid.”

Why did you scream back? If you want HER to remain calm, you have to model that for her. Do you get that point?

I mean, I know it's hard when tempers are fragile, (very hard!!)

but you cannot say on one hand that you "don't yell" and that you are "always calm" but then a minute later admit that "WE got into a screaming match"

b/c it reveals that you are pretty inconsistent here.

Like I said, we are here to help YOU and we can't do that if you don't tell us the whole story....

My jaw dropped.

She still wasn’t getting it.

The minute we start fighting she launches right back into familiar patterns. It’s like living with the enemy.

Sounds awful for both of you. Do you do see the pattern YOU fit into? It does take two to fight. One person can only call an empty room so many names...

Sadly, we cannot help you as long as you believe you cannot or should not change anything within yourself.

B/C again, she is not here. You are.

We cannot change her, we can only advise YOU on things to do/say that we hope will help YOU.

Your claim that she is wrong with every claim she makes about you, negates her point of view...She says you are passive aggressive, you say you are not. And you end the "self reflection" there.

I asked if you with held affection and you said you do not. Then you said you refuse to have sex with her, "without commitment", (which pretty much defines withholding affection) and yet ironically, YOU are the one not committed to the m!

(BTW Why do you oppose divorce, if you are in a marriage "without commitment" anyhow? What does marriage without commitment mean?)

As long as you keep saying "she won't change", as if you have no changing on your end to do, we shall remain powerless to help you.