Trying to find my way

[Meghan]

My W was the one that didn't want sex at all. I was trying to be nice and not initiate at all and I think it may have been wrong thing to do. I am not saying to try and just keep asking, obviously that isn't working try something different. A lot if good examples on here already, but try to do it with no expectations, hard yes, but will keep you wanting to try again.

I basically backed off completely, particularly when it became clear that he wasn’t that cool with touching me in any way, and was reading selfishness into any touch that I did give him. I’m not sure it was the right thing to do for so long, but he seemed so unable to even contemplate touching me that I didn’t know what else to do. So instead, I tried changing other things to change the dynamic, but it’s hard to tell how much they’ve helped when that was the big thing. I think I’m going to try a few different things – a little more touching that’s as neutral as possible, plus some shorts-wearing and yoga-doing. I’m also going to put even more effort into compliments and affirming him through my words.

While W and I were in counseling, it was very hard when it came time to answer my issues time. I was scared as well, and worried. I might go against a few here, but my thoughts. You have to be able to release your side of things to, and yes they are going to be upset at you for what you say. However, if you keep it in, it's not helping either. Now don't dwell on it, and make it seem like end of the world, don't think you are but just saying. Then when he comes back with his whatever feeling validate it from there. Doesn't matter what you do or say, he is feeling what he is feeling and you can't change that. You can change yourself though, and keep putting your best foot forward, and when and if he is ready the feeling of only being about you may dissipate. Just keep it has nice and honest as possible.

Thanks for this, Roid. I do think there’s something to be said for being able to get your feelings out, too, although then I come here, see all the advice, and feel like I’ve just messed it all up again based on what’s being said. Unfortunately, at this point I do feel like I’m making it into the end of the world. This upcoming trip feels like an insane amount of pressure to be as calm and cool as I can, and it feels like I blew it in counseling – H. has seemed to be less engaged and more snappy since then, which is hard to deal with when he’s going away to come to a decision about the marriage and whether there’s any hope.

I’m definitely working on changing myself as much as I can – it felt good to be doing some 180s, and it really made a difference in feeling like I had a life outside of him. In the last few years its felt like my world has become really small. This week has seemed especially hard, though – all I want to do is wallow and it’s been a real struggle to keep up with going out, seeing people, and getting things done. Because neither of us is working right now, we’re both around all the time in a small apartment. I’m not sleeping well, am unfocused, and feel like I’m close to either tears or to throwing up pretty much all the time.

When you are home though and together try to keep from mentioning much unless he brings it up. If he does just validate and really pay attention, like you are when he asks you to look at stuff, try not to talk about you. I know it's hard to do, but right now he thinks it's all about him.

Other than our initial conversation, which was in response to me initiating sex, he’s never brought up the R in the last four months. And once I got past some of the things that we tended to argue about, I haven’t really been bringing things up at home anymore. It’s been weeks now since I brought up anything relationship-wise. I sometimes wish I had more opportunities to validate when we’re not in counseling.

And, honestly, it felt like backing off on the talks and the 180s were helping recently. It seemed like there were some small positive signs. But then we got to counseling on Monday and I got the “nothing’s changed, nothing’s better, I see her as a friend, I resent and am angry with her, I shouldn’t have to do the work, she should be fixing things without my input, I feel hopeless” talk, which felt absolutely awful.

While he is gone on his trip plan a couple things just for you. Keep your mind off of it, and try to focus on you and what you can do to have fun and enjoy your life.

I’m going to see some friends that I haven’t seen in ages and take the opportunity to visit my parents, so that will be nice. I could use the distraction and the love and support.

[Meghan]

I had basically detached to the point of indifference. It made my daily routine much much easier, and I was able to be happy and upbeat around her.

I definitely need to do this more, but I’m finding it extraordinarily difficult to actually do. My IC thinks I’m both highly sensitive and highly emotional, and it’s so, so hard to turn off or even turn down. I think I’ve been pretty good about being happy and upbeat (okay, maybe not quite so much this week, although I haven’t been visibly upset since we went to MC). It has been hard to function normally, though, which is getting to be a problem at this point.

I had worked on my 180s and she had definitely noticed. After about 7 weeks or so of me being strict no contact, and limiting any contact she had with me to extremely brief unless it was kid related, she seemed to have softened her heart/position. So a few days ago after we met to exchange the kids (only the 4th time I had seen her) she again initiated text contact over nothing really important. This time, I "allowed" the texting to continue. I use that term not as if I was controlling, but I mean I participated with longer responses. I still kept to DB where I would end the texting with hers being the last. But instead of being short, I gave more enthusiastic answers, and 'engaged' more.

H. is only going to be gone for a bit over two weeks, but I wonder if this is something I could try on a shorter timeframe. H. said in counseling that he’d be in touch with me while he was away, but I’m thinking I might try to keep it to him getting in touch with me first (I’ll make an exception on my birthday) and possibly either be a bit unavailable at some times or limit how much we talk initially – like you said, not appearing to be too eager to talk. I do feel like I need some balance here, though – if one of his concerns if the lack of intimacy and caring that I’ve showed, going too dark is probably not going to help with that. It seems to be finding that balance again between giving space and showing interest and caring.

Honestly, I’m kind of scared he’ll go and will barely be in touch at all and that it will hurt, but I suppose that’s just another opportunity to do a 180 and not try to find out where he is and what he’s doing, which is what I’d probably normally do (out of curiosity and caring). I’m also going to have to be careful to rein myself in and not ask anything that seems to be leading him to talk about the relationship – I don’t want to be annoying him or pressuring him or even letting him think that I’m wondering (okay, let’s be honest, it will be obsessing) over his decision.

I think the being as dark as possible, and really giving her the impression (a lot based on things I said immediately prior to our S) that I was truly going to move on with out her probably helped. Cannot say for sure (mind reading) but I know nothing else I had tried (crying, pleading, etc) worked, so I just backed off completely.

I’m not sure how to give this impression right now, but I’ve wondered if something like this might be helpful – maybe indicating that I’m going to use this time to sort out myself, too? I’m not sure I could make it convincing right now, though, because it’s still pretty clear that I want to make this work (especially in MC).

Again, if it’s not too much trouble, could I ask if there’s anything specific you told her, or is this in your thread?

[Meghan]

Has anyone here worked with a divorce busting coach on healing a sexless marriage that's gotten to the point of serious resentment? If so, did you find it helpful? My anxiety about all of this is so great that I'm seriously considering it.

[pilot]

Again, if it’s not too much trouble, could I ask if there’s anything specific you told her, or is this in your thread?

Sure. And it is in my thread, but since it is pretty long, I will condense it for you here.

My W had been having an EA, possible PA. I knew about it for a while, and she knew that I knew, but was not even trying to stop. Then I caught her in a parking lot with OM. I confronted her there. Then left. She was on her way to work.

When she got home that evening, she came into our bed, lay next to me, and started to say this guy is only a friend. At that point I told her if it was not moving related, or kid related, I did not want to hear it. I told her I would reply to her D petition (she filed but never served me) and she would not like my answer. I also told her I hoped our boys never grow up to to marry someone like her, and if she loved them, she would hope for the same. Because she should never want our boys to go through what I was going through.

Ok, this was all pre DB. I probably could have left out the mean remark. But the bottom line is I went from resisting a D and being the one who wanted to work at our M, to being cold and distant. My W and I had never yelled at each other, and really never said anything mean to eachother either. So my remarks were definitely out of the ordinary. She also knows I am a stubborn and resolute person. After that night, I did not initiate any conversation with her for the remaining few day before we moved and our S began. Only things which pertained to the kids. I was definitely cold and distant to her. Once we moved and our S began, I never texted her unless it was when she had the kids and I did my daily request to FaceTime with them (she would do the same). The few times I saw her I was very happy and upbeat, as well as wearing new clothes and cologne, and looking as good as I possibly can. A week into our S, she came to my area for our kids joint bday party. I had invited an ex gf. W definitely noticed that. So from everything my W could see I was truly moving on without her and without looking back. There was even the 'idea' that I might already be moving on to a new relationship. Now while I cannot speculate as to what in particular worked or even where she is emotionally towards me, I can say her attitude towards me has improved dramatically. She is initiating texts, when my kids are with her and I am on FaceTime with them, she will now turn the phone to herself and talk to me about little nothings really. Her texts will now include smiley faces, cute emoticons, she has referred to me as her husband to other people recently, and has in general almost taken a pursuing position. While I do not think I am at the point where she wants to R, I am definitely leaps and bounds beyond where I was 2 months ago.

None of this would have happened if I had not gone NC and given her the space, and the belief I was moving on.

[Anders]

I agree. Until I started reading recently, I didn’t understand how devastating that rejection could be, particularly since I was the spouse who just didn’t have any desire for a long time. And although it’s the central issue, I think it goes somewhat beyond the sex, too. Extra weight, lack of a job, and lack of friends have all been weighing on H. recently.

You will make it through this Meghan. One day at a time, one step at a time. Learn from the things you felt went wrong. Acknowledge your part but then forgive yourself. You need to to allow for the healing to happen.

I am not a psychologist but referencing my own experience, it sounds like he is going/did go through a depression. However, take my observation with a grain of salt as it is easy to throw labels onto people and situations.

This is pretty much why I’ve been so hesitant. He’s made it clear quite a few times – this past Monday was the latest – that he doesn’t want any of the things that he said he wanted before from me right now. I intentionally touched him on the shoulder a few times today, and that felt like a giant step. I’m hoping there might be room to ease back to it. In our last MC session, he said that I should be making changes but that he shouldn’t have to offer any suggestions, because he’s already done more than his fair share of work, so hopefully the tiniest bits of touching (hasn’t happened in months) can serve as a fairly inoffensive start.

I agree with you, lack of sex may have been one of the starting points but is most likely no longer the primary issue. If he is responding positively to your touches, that is great. If he initiates sex, go for it. As mentioned here by others, sex is a great connector/bond enhancer and there is research to back up why this is. But for now let him initiate. If he asks you to back off, do so. As you will read in the book, experiment to see what things work for your situation.

Our partners in this situations are afraid of dropping their guard only to be hurt again. You are on the receiving end of a lot of anger and hostility which I don't think is right. But for now, empathy may help to see that he is scared and that anger/negativity may be his way of building up a protective wall, even though it is not necessarily right.

IMO, the fact that he is still here and talking about his frustrations is a good sign, within the context of the situation. If he was really done, he would have left already.

[Anders]

but our home cultures are negligible in their differences.

One point that hit home for me in the DR book was 'Have a beginner's mindset'. From personal experience, I have seen how even an American-Canadian couple have had significant issues arise from 'minor' cultural differences even though they both believed it was a non-issue initially. I am not saying that this is the case for you but if you haven't, and if MC thinks it is wise, it may be worthwhile exploring this with your H in MC. The worst that could happen is that you will confirm it really is a non-issue.

Until recently, he rarely left the apartment without me (now he often goes for long walks alone). He’s not very social to start with and doesn’t really like coming to work or friend get-togethers with me. I’ve taken him to groups and conferences to meet people with similar interests, but nothing really came of it. Part of the blow was that he realized that his old friends from home weren’t really in touch with him. Often it takes weeks if not months for them to email him back.

IMO, he has to deal with this on his own-making friends/coming out of his shell. The best you can do is to be as supportive as you can (with the exception of it crossing any boundaries you don't feel comfortable about). He has his own journey to go through to hopefully realize that ultimately he is the one responsible for his own happiness.

[Anders]

The inclination is to try keep control, but I don’t have any clue how, since it’s just not possible. I haven’t successfully detached yet, but I’ve started some mindfulness meditation, though – I’m hoping that it will help with this.

Welcome to the club! A lot of us are in the same boat. I am still struggling with this. It is much easier said than done. Wayne Dyer's 'The Shift', on YouTube, really helped me to understand the incredible sense of peace that comes from letting go, detaching. He talks a lot about the need we have to control things in our lives and why this often leads to pain. And he talks about how this shift is different for men and for women. Unfortunately, for most of us, we have to experience this lesson many times over the course of our lives before we really get it.

He knows I’m scared of the outcome – thanks to Monday’s MC for bringing that up again so I could cry and leave him feeling guilty – but I haven’t been visibly upset about it in many weeks other than in counseling. I’ve also been asking about what friends he plans to see when he’s there and suggesting things that I know that he’d like to do or wanted to take care of (including pranks on his crazy sister). I don’t know that I’ve pulled off seeming super-excited, but I think I’ve managed at least some healthy interest and support.

It sounds like you did great here. Don't worry about appearing overly excited.

[Anders]

It’s good to know, I suppose, but it also makes the task ahead even more daunting since I can see even more places where I imagine he feels hurt and slighted by me. That’s hard to face, and there are definitely moments where I worry that I really am a horrible, selfish, self-focused person who was unable to recognize or appreciate most of the nice things that her husband was trying really hard to do for her.

Someone here will chime in on the race analogy so I may as well give it to you now: it is a marathon and not a race. Pace yourself. The other one is: the longest journey begins with that first step.

To help you, take time to think about what you want and then work on a plan. The DR book will guide you on this. This will help you break up this journey into manageable steps.

If you really are that horrible, selfish and self-focused, I don't think you would be have started this DB journey ; ).

Welcome to the family and to the marathon.

[Meghan]

Someone here will chime in on the race analogy so I may as well give it to you now: it is a marathon and not a race. Pace yourself. The other one is: the longest journey begins with that first step.

Good analogies. I think it feels so hard right now because it feels so much like the trip is the defining moment, and that things need to happen NOW in order for anything to change. But I suppose this isn't the be all and end all, and pushing too hard right now is just likely to make things worse. Time to 180 and get a life some more - I could use some distraction and some self-betterment.

To help you, take time to think about what you want and then work on a plan. The DR book will guide you on this. This will help you break up this journey into manageable steps.

I think I might take some time this afternoon to do some goal setting so things feel a little more approachable. Right now, it feels like one huge, awful tangle that I have no idea how to handle, and breaking it down would be useful. I'm hoping DR shows up very soon - it's still in the mail.

If you really are that horrible, selfish and self-focused, I don't think you would be have started this DB journey ; ).

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I have a long-standing tendency to blame myself for everything under the sun, so it's really easy for me to feel like this is all my responsibility, especially when he's blaming me so stridently and things feel so utterly terrible (not that I'm denying responsibility, just that I may be taking it to unhealthy levels).

[Meghan]

I am not a psychologist but referencing my own experience, it sounds like he is going/did go through a depression. However, take my observation with a grain of salt as it is easy to throw labels onto people and situations.

He’s actually made this point himself. He thinks he was depressed this past winter, although I wonder if it might have been longer. My IC wondered if this might be the case, too. He hasn’t seen anyone about it, though. I suggested he do so when this first came up, after the BD, but he said he was fine now.

I agree with you, lack of sex may have been one of the starting points but is most likely no longer the primary issue. If he is responding positively to your touches, that is great. If he initiates sex, go for it. As mentioned here by others, sex is a great connector/bond enhancer and there is research to back up why this is. But for now let him initiate. If he asks you to back off, do so. As you will read in the book, experiment to see what things work for your situation.

Right now, the primary issue appears to be intimacy in general. He feels that I haven’t tried hard enough to take care of him and make the marriage a priority, and that I didn’t try to fix things when initially asked.

For the touching, I didn’t really see a response, per se, although after months, I can’t imagine that he didn’t notice. He didn’t draw away, though, so I’ll see what I can work in today. I’m just trying to be subtle and natural about it. I was hoping he’d initiate touching when he was ready, but I started to wonder after Monday’s claim that I should be making the changes without his input whether that would happen and if I should be waiting anymore (he’d never said that before, so I didn’t know.) I’d been keeping a journal to track these things, but didn’t for a few days – I should get back to it.

Our partners in this situations are afraid of dropping their guard only to be hurt again. You are on the receiving end of a lot of anger and hostility which I don't think is right. But for now, empathy may help to see that he is scared and that anger/negativity may be his way of building up a protective wall, even though it is not necessarily right.

I can certainly understand this. Of course, the easiest thing to do seems to be (on the surface, anyway) explaining your position, but that’s not the kind of thing that works. So, I’m trying to build empathy by reading and understanding more so the next time that he raises this, I’m in an even better position to validate. He’s actually described his resentment as a wall, so I suspect that’s exactly what’s going on here. Given that one of his original things was that he said that any changes had to be long-term, I imagine that he’s scared, too. I suspect that this is hard for me to remember sometimes when all I see if the negativity and anger without really looking at what's underneath, so I'm going to practice this more.

IMO, the fact that he is still here and talking about his frustrations is a good sign, within the context of the situation. If he was really done, he would have left already.

Gosh, do I want to believe this, but in our previous counseling session, when I said I was scared that he wouldn’t come back from his trip, he said that he’d have to come back because he has no job and no place to stay long-term. I suppose he may have been working more on the wall of negativity, and I know I shouldn’t trust what he says, but that one really smarted and dashed a bit of hope.

He has his own journey to go through to hopefully realize that ultimately he is the one responsible for his own happiness.

This is another central thing. He’s really not happy with me, but he’s also really not happy with himself, too. I hope he comes out the end stronger and happier, and hopefully stronger and happier with me, too.

Welcome to the club! A lot of us are in the same boat. I am still struggling with this. It is much easier said than done. Wayne Dyer's 'The Shift', on YouTube, really helped me to understand the incredible sense of peace that comes from letting go, detaching. He talks a lot about the need we have to control things in our lives and why this often leads to pain. And he talks about how this shift is different for men and for women. Unfortunately, for most of us, we have to experience this lesson many times over the course of our lives before we really get it.

Thanks for the recommendation – I’ll definitely check it out, and will get myself back to some mindfulness practices. I’ve spent most of my time these last few months thinking far ahead to the future and imagining every awful possibility, and I need to try something different.