Trying to find my way

[Ben2010]

So if he ends up having sex with you it wont be for just you because he will have initiated it. So there goes that problem. Also sex is a bonding experience whether he will say so or not. He can be physically attracted to you all he wants, but that doesnt mean that it will just be about that. Show him the more adventurous sex maybe too. Dont go overboard so that it looks like an act or something, but maybe just a little something that you didnt do before.

Lol another one I just thought of, Yoga. If you are trying new things at all or if you already do it, try doing it in the living room. Get some cute yoga pants on or whatever. Maybe be doing it when he is supposed to be coming home lol. That would drive me insane personally. If I came home and she was doing some of those positions...it would be over for me.

[Meghan]

Thanks again, Ben - I really appreciate your suggestions.

I'm sincerely doubtful that he'll initiate at this point - he's so used to rejection that he hasn't initiated in what's probably at least a year or two now - but I'm willing to give it a go, and yoga in the living room is something that I haven't done in awhile. I've actually been wearing somewhat short shorts around recently in general - it was something he likes and I never really did before, so it's a bit different for me.

Unfortunately, he's going away for two weeks to try to figure out where he stands on the marriage in less than a week now, but I'll see what I can do before then.

[pilot]

Meghan,

I would approach sex cautiously. I am not saying do not initiate, but here is another guy's perspective. After I found out about the A my W was having, and a few days later we agreed to D, we ended up that night having some of the best sex we have had in years. And again the next morning. However, it was fleeting and 2 days later was a distant memory. After I caught my W with OM in a parking lot, there was NOTHING she could have done to initiate sex with me. I was detached from her at that point. My W and I had a very active sex life for most of our marriage. When the first bomb dropped last S, it died off. For the next month, I initiated 9 times (I counted) and was rejected each time. I quit asking. We continued to have sex regularly, but after being rejected so many times, I really never allowed myself to 'get worked up' to where I wanted to initiate. If she wanted to have sex, Id oblige. If I wasnt in the mood, she would do things for me. But at that point, it was almost like a chore than a connection.

I say this because if you had rejected your H in the past enough, it really does take the spark out of him. And it will affect him in lots of ways...physically and emotionally.

You can fix this by being the one to initiate, and communicating to him that you WANT him to initiate. And as Ben said, be creative. Do not just wait till before you got to sleep. Surprise him in the middle of the day, early morning, or heck, wake him up in the middle of the night. And I do not mean to get graphic or detailed, but surprise him with a quick oral for him. Not expecting anything from him in return. Do this often enough and his fears and insecurities about rejection will subside. i know it can be tough to do these things when going through what we are all going through. But if this is something which caused him to walk away, it is something you can do as a 180 to show true change. Again, I do not mean to suggest become an inanimate sex toy, but show him that you understand HIS needs and his insecurities and are comfortable helping work those out with him.

[Anders]

My husband (36) and I (34) have been together for 10 years and married for 4. We met online and lived in different countries. I was initially engaged to someone who was emotionally abusive. It took me a year to end that relationship, which was very hard on him. While dating we had long trips back and forth. When we were married, he moved here to be with me. He dropped the bomb almost four months ago. We’re in couples counseling now, and I have a long-term individual counselor too.

Welcome to DB Meghan. Your story is so eerily familiar from my own situation three years ago that I actually thought my W had made this post, trying to change a few details to stay anonymous.

The first main issue he brought up was the lack of sex. I haven’t really been interested in sex since we were married. He brought this up a few times over the years and feels that I wasn’t interested in fixing it. I’d approached my doctor many times, but was always told that it was stress (a birth control change recently helped things). This was something that I should have pushed harder to fix, but I suspect I was assuming he wouldn’t leave. He expanded on this a few days later and said that he felt like we didn’t have emotional intimacy and that everything I do is selfish and self-focused and that I like having him around to take care of me rather than to have him as a true partner. He therefore also doesn’t trust that any changes that I’ve made are about wanting him to be happy rather than just trying to save the marriage because I get something out of it and am afraid to lose him. Because of the lack of sex, emotional connection, and effort to fix things, he feels that I left the relationship years ago.

It sounds like he has really low self-esteem right now. Sexual rejection can be very demoralizing making us question our self worth. It sounds like physical touch is his primary love language which would really be a big blow to him. For men, this really does influence our emotional connection as well which can then cycle back to impact our physical attraction for our spouse.

From personal experience, this can be more so within the context of certain cultures and/or countries.

When I was at this stage, I did want sex...just not with W. I felt huge resentment towards her. I could not even bring myself to hold her hand let alone have sex with her. This despite the fact that one of my earlier concerns was that we were not having sex often enough and she admitted to not needing it as much. I say this to emphasize that even though this was a big issue for him it may not be a good idea to approach him for sex right now.

It’s also become clear that he feels like all he’s done is sacrifice and change since we were married in order to accommodate me. He moved here to be with me and is upset because he now doesn’t have a job or friends, is away from his family and the big city, put on weight, and feels worthless. I do agree that there are big sacrifices there, but he suggested we get married the same day that he found out he’d been laid off, couldn’t claim unemployment benefits, and realized he only had a month’s worth of expenses to live on. Until recently, in the four years he’s lived here he applied for 6 (I think) jobs and turned down – with a “blessing” that I wasn’t thrilled about giving – the two jobs he was offered. He also hasn’t really tried to make any friends.

Adapting to a new culture for immigrants can be a very difficult process. The transition can be very stressful and it sounds like he was away from his core support network.

Do you know why he turned down the two jobs?

Again, depending on the culture/country, his self esteem may have taken another big hit by being unemployed.

That being said, it is not your fault that he feels this way.

He also hasn’t really tried to make any friends.

Don't be offended by this question but is he really not making the effort to make friends or is it possible that your perception of his efforts may be limited and that he is finding this difficult as a relatively new immigrant?

The other issue is work, responsibility, and caretaking. Since our wedding, I’ve been focused first on finishing a grad degree and then on work and he feels that I haven’t held our marriage as a priority. I’d agree that I’ve been overly focused on my work – I’m the breadwinner, I don’t make a lot of money, and my job is precarious. This is one of my biggest anxiety triggers. Plus, since I have an anxiety disorder, there have been many times where he’s helped me with planning or sorting out work-related issues and he’s said he’s felt more like my assistant and therapist than my partner. I really do appreciate the help with dealing with work concerns – I’ve thanked him profusely for that over the years – and he’s been really good about taking care of me by giving lots of hugs, cuddles, and back rubs, which I adore and will admit that I haven’t always been so good about returning. But I’ve also been frustrated for a long time now because while he does more housework than he used to (some of his changes are doing a lot of the dishes, all of the laundry, cleaning the toilet and sinks, and baking), I do most of the rest myself. I’ve felt very overwhelmed and there is resentment (which I did tell him about) about how much I feel like I’m responsible for, which also probably hasn’t helped with sex or intimacy.

Another section which had me do a double take. Household chores and resentments around this were the hallmark of the early days of my W & I's situation. You mention thanking him but he didn't feel appreciated. You mention him giving you physical gestures of affection but growing resentment about him not doing enough to help you.

Have you read the 5 Love Languages?

From what you describe, it sounds like you each may have different ways of receiving and giving love. It sounds like physical touch &/or words of affirmation may be his primary love language and that yours may be acts of service.

Out of curiosity, did you help him with his job searches and applications?
And if so, how did he respond to this?

The 5L book and website may be a great resource to explore. I discovered this way after the fact but it has had such a radical impact on my thinking about marital issues that I have given a copy to every couple I know. There is a free quiz you can take to see what is your primary love language.

it’s not uncommon for him to stay up until 2 or 3 and then sleep in until 1 or 2 the next day.

Was this always the case or a pattern that has developed recently?

Overall, he feels like the last four years have been all about his sacrifices – moving here, no sex, no work, no friends, listening to my issues, taking care of me, taking on extra housework, and changing himself to meet my needs, and he’s deeply unhappy and not sure if he can get over the resentment. From my end, it feels like he blames me for everything – the sex, certainly, but also being here, having no friends or job, and generally putting his life on hold.

This sounds insane right now but I think you need to validate all of this for him. There is a great thread here on validating and how best to approach it.

From his perspective, this is what he is feeling right now. The basis of his feelings may be right or they could be wrong but rationalizing this with him may not do any good right now. There may come a time when this discussion may happen. I don't think it is now. You have a choice to make him wrong or to validate what he is feeling. This doesn't mean accepting the blame.

On top of all this, when he dropped the bomb, he told me that he’d been talking to someone online. They started talking in January, I think. He kept her a secret until he dropped the bomb, but now talks to her online a lot. She’s 18. I don’t think there’s anything deeply inappropriate going on anymore, but this was hard to see for a long time, particularly since the bomb dropping and first mention of her were the same conversation which also coincided with him starting to lose weight, apply for jobs, and spend more time away from me (all of which screamed EA). He said in counseling that she makes him feel worthwhile and that he needs someone on “his side” who supports him.

Validating may become a very valuable resource to include in your DB tool belt as well as the 5 Love Languages book. I don't think he is right in getting his needs met this way but it sounds like she is validating him, pumping up his self esteem and giving him the confidence to go back out. Putting this bluntly, she is making him feel like a man.

I’ve done a lot of things wrong in the three months before finding this site. I’m scared it’s too late to fix things.

As many wise people here have often said: We all make mistakes especially in this DB journey. Learn from these and don't beat yourself up. Be kind to yourself. And, it is never too late.

I’ve gotten upset a lot since then, though. I’ve asked what should be changed, and only got “I don’t know” as the answer.

This is most likely true. He may not know what he wants. You will need to be patient all the way through this.

We also argued when I pointed out that he wasn’t the only one making sacrifices. When he talked about going away for a week or two to visit family, I told him I was scared that he wouldn’t come back, which made him angry because I was focused on me and he felt guilty. I promised change, which I’ve been working on, but he said in counseling that he’s had a hard time seeing it because of the arguments.

Validate, validate, validate.

Despite being on both sides of this, it is still an ongoing lesson to let go of being defensive.

He’s started telling me about his online friend and asking if he can talk to her sometimes when we’re watching TV, and I’ve been saying yes and asking about her in a neutral way.

The vets can provide better perspective on this but I don't think this is the right approach to give him permission to continue with the EA.

When he asks to talk with me about something he’s working on, I listen a lot more carefully than I used to, always put down my computer or phone, and ask relevant questions. I’ve been a bit less frugal and paying for more treats without mentioning the budget. I think I’ve acted at least neutral if not supportive of his trip. When he complains about something, I validate his experience.

This is great! IMO though, don't create another issue by letting your financial situation slide.

I’ve started a new anxiety program with my IC. I’ve realized that I’ve been staying home a lot because he hasn’t been going out and I feel badly. Now I go out a lot more, see friends, and I’ve taken up some new activities and joined some new groups – yoga, running, cycling, group meditation, and gaming.

Getting a life is a core part of this journey. Don't loose yourself in the process of saving your marriage.

I think doing IC is a great idea. IMO, one thing to watch out for is not to carry resentment from this trying journey on to the other side. Make sure your IC is also pro-marriage, if this is your intent.

That said, we do still do some things together like we used to. I run with him when I’m home and I’ll go for a walk with him if he invites me. We still talk and joke around, eat dinner together, and watch TV in the evenings. I’m not sure if these are things that should be changed.

Sounds like you are on the right track but don't pursue him in the process. The DR book will explain this but keep doing the things which seem to be working. Stop those which are not.

I think I badly messed things up in counseling today, though. He was talking about his resentment about feeling like he was pulling the emotional weight and taking care of me and not getting a lot in return and how he doesn’t know if he can get past that, because everything I do feels forced now, and he doesn’t want to have to tell me what to do. I validated and agreed with his assessment, but when the counselor asked, I also pointed out that I felt like I was doing a lot in different ways – work, finances, and household things. H. got upset at that, and claimed that he’d tried to lighten my burden by applying for jobs and doing more housework. I made the point that neither of us felt like the one was doing enough in certain areas for the other. He was angry about that because they're not the same thing (which I agree with), and now he also feels like I made this all about me again, and that I’m only focused on my needs and trying to save the relationship only because I get something out of it.

This brings back some painful memories. MC allowed me to express a lot of things weighing on my mind. Unfortunately, W felt attacked in those sessions. Today W says she doesn't trust MC because she felt C and I ganged up on her. IMO, the key is working with an experienced, pro-marriage MC. IC also helped me to see W's side of the situation albeit when she became the WAW.

When Mrs. DB2013 tried to rationalize with her WAH (aka me) about how we were BOTH at fault, this only confirmed for me she didn't really care what I thought or said and absolving herself of any blame.

When I tried to rationalize with my WAW about how we BOTH had issues and had the opportunity to work on these together, she said I never listened to her and here I was proving her point yet again.

IMO, rationalizing won't do any good right now.

I guess I’m not sure what else I should be working on or doing now. I’m certainly going to keep up with the 180s and GAL.

You are on the right track here.

He’s going to visit family in a week, which will overlap with his birthday. He said in counseling that it might make him miss me, or that it might clarify the alternatives (which I took to mean ending the relationship). As a result, I’m feeling really, really terrified, particularly after today’s counseling session, that he will feel that life away from me is better because he sees me as the source of many if not all of his problems and hasn’t seen much change yet.

It is okay to feel scared. Don't let this dictate your decisions though. Easier said than done, especially from the outside. Right now it feels like if you do nothing, you will loose everything. Detaching from any expectations will help you tremendously with this. In other words, letting go of trying to influence and control the outcome but not giving up on him or your marriage.

I wish I had more time to show him changes before he leaves, or that I’d started them sooner, and I’m not sure what I should be saying or doing in the meantime, particularly in light of today’s screw up. Any suggestions about handling either the trip specifically or the situation in general would be most appreciated.

These are words of advice given several times over on this forum: the changes are not for him, they are for you. Don't make these changes with the primary intention of making him stay. He will see through these.

Be wary about building up resentment. Make sure you look after yourself.

Be supportive of him and honor desire for this trip as best you can. It sounds like he really needs to reconnect with his family and for him, to find a 'safe' space. Don't give in to the temptation to get his family to talk some sense into him. Give him this gift.

[Meghan]

Thanks, Pilot.

I think your perspective and suggestions mesh with some of what I've been thinking about - I've wondered a lot about how we can get back into having sex routinely enough that I can show him how things can be different and that I do, in fact, want us to have a fulfilling sex life. I can't say I'm not scared to put them into play, though - not because of the likelihood of rejection, but because I fear it will make him even angrier with me.

When the bomb dropped, I offered sex. I offered it again a week later, and then a week after that. Yes, it was partly out of desperation, but our original BD conversation happened right after I'd tried to initiate sex, since I'd actually started feeling desire again (new BC). It’s also possible that my approach didn’t help – I told him that I wanted to have sex with him, but he saw that as wanting to meet my needs to have sex and keep him around. It was then that he told me that it would be a long time before he would want sex with me again because he wasn’t emotionally attracted to me and that I should stop asking (I cried that time, which probably didn’t help matters). He said in our last counseling session that he’s still not emotionally attracted, and that he still doesn’t want sex – or any intimate touching – from me.

I suppose it’s also worth noting that he's made the point that it's not just about the sex, it's about intimacy. Until the BD he was great about rubbing my back and stroking my hair and cuddling. I was not so great about returning, and he feels that all of these things became about me and my needs. He also says I stopped kissing him, which I hadn’t realised.

Today, I intentionally touched him on the shoulder twice while we were out for a walk. I know this is the smallest of smallest things, but it’s the most that I’ve touched him just to touch him – not like if we accidentally touch while passing the salt or something like that – in almost four months now. It felt like a huge deal, but it’s a far cry from initiating – let alone having – sex.

I guess the questions that are weighing on me are how do you balance doing a 180 like that with concerns that you won’t be respecting your spouse’s wishes or needs, particularly when you’ve hurt them really badly? Is this something that’s best asked about verbally first, or led up to and eased into in some way? It does feel like the ultimate 180, but it also feels like it would violate what he’s requested of me, and like I should tread very cautiously, like you suggested.

Also, he’s leaving for his two week figuring things out vacation in six days. Is this something that I should be trying to do before then, even if he sees it as a last ditch effort to keep him around, or should I be holding off until he gets back and going slowly - touching a bit more, perhaps - in the meantime?

[pilot]

It IS tough to balance doing the 180s and keeping your DB approach up so you do not pursue or push them away. In my own case, my W was upset I did not tell her she was beautiful enough and such. She was right, I had slacked off. But if I were to start doing that right away, it would be a bad thing. I am now at the point where I can slowly start tossing a compliment or two out there and judge the results. I actually did give her a compliment yesterday, and she was very receptive and thanked me for it. 2 months ago it would have been met with deaf ears and probably a mild case of annoyance.

I do not have an answer for when or how you should initiate. I doubt anyone can give you that answer. You will just have to judge that for yourself. You had mentioned your H thinks when you do initiate physical contact/intimacy, it is done for your own needs. This is why I suggested YOU doing something for/to him which only results in HIS needs being met. I think you get the idea of what I am suggesting. And that is only if you are comfortable with that. From a guy's perspective, that act does not require any emotional attachment/involvement on his part. How you initiate it successfully also comes down to timing. Try it when he is in the middle of something he is doing, you will probably annoy him. Catch him off guard when he is not distracted by something else, I find it hard to believe he would say no. Dont ask, just do. Take charge and have at it. The first time you will probably just shock him, he wont know what to think or how to react. Keep it up for a week or two, and I am relatively sure he will be giving some thought to all of this. Again, only if this is within your comfort zone. He may just start warming up to you, and begin to look at you in a sexual manner.

[Meghan]

Wow, db2013 – that was extraordinarily thorough – thank you for your thoughts.

It sounds like he has really low self-esteem right now. Sexual rejection can be very demoralizing making us question our self worth.

I agree. Until I started reading recently, I didn’t understand how devastating that rejection could be, particularly since I was the spouse who just didn’t have any desire for a long time. And although it’s the central issue, I think it goes somewhat beyond the sex, too. Extra weight, lack of a job, and lack of friends have all been weighing on H. recently.

Actually, now that I think of it, my feelings that the balance was off in terms of responsibility is probably further exacerbating those feelings – since he was trying and talks a lot about the changes and sacrifices that he’s made, saying those contribution weren’t adequate probably dismisses the things he felt he had going for him (feeling awful now…)

I say this to emphasize that even though this was a big issue for him it may not be a good idea to approach him for sex right now.

This is pretty much why I’ve been so hesitant. He’s made it clear quite a few times – this past Monday was the latest – that he doesn’t want any of the things that he said he wanted before from me right now. I intentionally touched him on the shoulder a few times today, and that felt like a giant step. I’m hoping there might be room to ease back to it. In our last MC session, he said that I should be making changes but that he shouldn’t have to offer any suggestions, because he’s already done more than his fair share of work, so hopefully the tiniest bits of touching (hasn’t happened in months) can serve as a fairly inoffensive start.

Adapting to a new culture for immigrants can be a very difficult process. The transition can be very stressful and it sounds like he was away from his core support network.

It was definitely a transition – he spent his entire life in one big city and moved to a very small city to be with me, away from his family and some friends – but our home cultures are negligible in their differences.

Do you know why he turned down the two jobs?

The first job he turned down because it wasn’t practical. He doesn’t drive, and one of the requirements was being on call at night for server issues. The second job was an okay fit, but he got the offer and felt he was being lowballed, he didn’t like the woman who interviewed him, and it was something that didn’t really interest him. It was clear he really wasn’t happy about it. I felt strong-armed into not forcing him into it, so I told him that he didn’t have to take it if he didn’t want to and that we could have a quite summer together (I was off work) and he could look again in the fall.

When his turning down the job comes up now, he gets really upset because he sees at as a truly mutual decision, which is not quite how it feels to me, and I didn’t see a whole lot of applications going out after that. And yes, it’s maybe not entirely fair that I feel resentful that he said no when I gave him permission to do so – I guess I wanted him to want to take it to alleviate some of my responsibilities.

Don't be offended by this question but is he really not making the effort to make friends or is it possible that your perception of his efforts may be limited and that he is finding this difficult as a relatively new immigrant?

No offence taken. Until recently, he rarely left the apartment without me (now he often goes for long walks alone). He’s not very social to start with and doesn’t really like coming to work or friend get-togethers with me. I’ve taken him to groups and conferences to meet people with similar interests, but nothing really came of it.

Part of the blow was that he realized that his old friends from home weren’t really in touch with him. Often it takes weeks if not months for them to email him back. This is where the new online friend comes in – he’s said she’s readily available to him, and he needs friends in his life because no one else is really in touch anymore.

Have you read the 5 Love Languages?

From what you describe, it sounds like you each may have different ways of receiving and giving love. It sounds like physical touch &/or words of affirmation may be his primary love language and that yours may be acts of service.

I’d agree with this. I haven’t read it yet, but it’s on my list and I’m aware of the basic concepts. I purr when he rubs my arms or back, so I think he thinks that’s my LL (which he may also assume if it’s his). But now that I’m aware of the LL, I think it’s maybe even more acts of service that are most meaningful to me. I get incredibly frustrated when it feels like things aren’t getting done and are being left to me. For my part, I haven’t been so great about physical touch or words of affirmation (these come really hard to me for some reason), but now that I think of it, my tendency is to do a bunch of chores to show him that I care.

Out of curiosity, did you help him with his job searches and applications?
And if so, how did he respond to this?

I’ve been a sounding board for his resumes and cover letters. A few times I offered my company’s job board, but he never took me up on it. I did ask about job searches for awhile, but he got irritated fairly quickly and insisted that there weren’t many jobs to apply for (which seems somewhat accurate), so I backed off.

Actually, one thing that was a problem that I forgot to include was that he decided he’d start writing racy stories as a way to hopefully interest me and make some money. He asked if I’d be involved and I said that I’d like to and would be happy to be an editor and sounding board. I think we had different expectations of what that meant. He expected that I’d be more involved and would help with plots and storylines and ideas. I was also slower to do the editing than either of us suspected, usually due to work and my own job applications, and didn’t wind up supporting him as much as he was hoping.

From my perspective, it didn’t seem like he was working very fast or hard on the writing, but I felt like I was supporting him by letting him do the writing, listening to his ideas, suggesting my own when I had them, and editing when I had a block of time. From his perspective, he was frustrated because he felt like I wasn’t interested in his work and that it wasn’t a priority for me. So, he wound up doubly disappointed because his writing didn’t help me get in the mood and I wasn’t as involved or tangibly supportive as he was expecting. Thinking on it, I probably haven’t adequately validated his experience there, either, since I usually got defensive about it.

From his perspective, this is what he is feeling right now. The basis of his feelings may be right or they could be wrong but rationalizing this with him may not do any good right now. There may come a time when this discussion may happen. I don't think it is now. You have a choice to make him wrong or to validate what he is feeling. This doesn't mean accepting the blame.

I’m realizing this, despite the fact that I’ve messed it up more than I’d like to think about right now. I think one issue is that we only talk about it in counseling – we don’t really talk about the R outside of it at all – which means that the counselor, who knows how I feel because we each has an individual session, specifically asks about my feelings on these things, leaving me to either lie by omission or put it out there.

I tried to validate in the last session, and said that I agreed that H. was doing the bulk of the emotional caregiving. The counselor asked if my statement was a surprise to H., and he said no, which suggests that he knows that I feel that he’s done a lot of caretaking. But, then I was asked about my perspective, and I pointed out that I felt like the balance was off with him certainly doing the bulk of the emotional work and with me taking care of a lot of the finances and household, which he took serious issue with. I didn’t validate that so well. Right after our session I apologized and said that I was sorry I had said what I did, and said that I was feeling defensive and scared. I was trying to show that I understand his experience even if I messed up by bringing up my resentments, but that’s not great validation. I suppose being more aware of it is a good thing, I’d just like to be able to stop it up front.

Right now it feels like if you do nothing, you will loose everything. Detaching from any expectations will help you tremendously with this. In other words, letting go of trying to influence and control the outcome but not giving up on him or your marriage.

You’re absolutely correct about the feeling that doing nothing will have me lose everything – this feels like the defining moment, and he’s going into it seriously angry and upset with me and feeling there hasn’t been any improvement after four months and five MC sessions. The inclination is to try keep control, but I don’t have any clue how, since it’s just not possible. I haven’t successfully detached yet, but I’ve started some mindfulness meditation, though – I’m hoping that it will help with this.

Be supportive of him and honor desire for this trip as best you can. It sounds like he really needs to reconnect with his family and for him, to find a 'safe' space. Don't give in to the temptation to get his family to talk some sense into him. Give him this gift.

He knows I’m scared of the outcome – thanks to Monday’s MC for bringing that up again so I could cry and leave him feeling guilty – but I haven’t been visibly upset about it in many weeks other than in counseling. I’ve also been asking about what friends he plans to see when he’s there and suggesting things that I know that he’d like to do or wanted to take care of (including pranks on his crazy sister). I don’t know that I’ve pulled off seeming super-excited, but I think I’ve managed at least some healthy interest and support. I have no plans to talk to his family or friends about putting any ideas into his head, although he hasn’t told his mom and I’ve wondered if she might get in touch when she knows more – she’s extremely fond of me, and would might try to get involved.

I have to say that writing this all out has opened my eyes to some more things that I haven’t handled all that well. It’s good to know, I suppose, but it also makes the task ahead even more daunting since I can see even more places where I imagine he feels hurt and slighted by me. That’s hard to face, and there are definitely moments where I worry that I really am a horrible, selfish, self-focused person who was unable to recognize or appreciate most of the nice things that her husband was trying really hard to do for her.

[Roid76]

My W was the one that didn't want sex at all. I was trying to be nice and not initiate at all and I think it may have been wrong thing to do. I am not saying to try and just keep asking, obviously that isn't working try something different. A lot if good examples on here already, but try to do it with no expectations, hard yes, but will keep you wanting to try again.

While W and I were in counseling, it was very hard when it came time to answer my issues time. I was scared as well, and worried. I might go against a few here, but my thoughts. You have to be able to release your side of things to, and yes they are going to be upset at you for what you say. However, if you keep it in, it's not helping either. Now don't dwell on it, and make it seem like end of the world, don't think you are but just saying. Then when he comes back with his whatever feeling validate it from there. Doesn't matter what you do or say, he is feeling what he is feeling and you can't change that. You can change yourself though, and keep putting your best foot forward, and when and if he is ready the feeling of only being about you may dissipate. Just keep it has nice and honest as possible.

I guess the best way to look at would be put yourself in his shoes, and would you want to hear anything from someone you are not really in a vibe with right now. When you are home though and together try to keep from mentioning much unless he brings it up. If he does just validate and really pay attention, like you are when he asks you to look at stuff, try not to talk about you. I know it's hard to do, but right now he thinks it's all about him. While he is gone on his trip plan a couple things just for you. Keep your mind off of it, and try to focus on you and what you can do to have fun and enjoy your life.

[Meghan]

I am now at the point where I can slowly start tossing a compliment or two out there and judge the results. I actually did give her a compliment yesterday, and she was very receptive and thanked me for it. 2 months ago it would have been met with deaf ears and probably a mild case of annoyance.

It's good to know that other people have trouble finding the balance, too, but I'm so pleased that you made progress! Do you mind if I ask how you worked up to this point?

You had mentioned your H thinks when you do initiate physical contact/intimacy, it is done for your own needs. This is why I suggested YOU doing something for/to him which only results in HIS needs being met.

One of the really troubling things is that he sees absolutely anything I do as self serving. In counseling the other day, I mentioned that I used to cuddle up and rub his back and scratch his head in the morning. Maybe it's that I didn't adequately validate his feelings that I wasn't touching him enough, but he said, "Well, what did YOU get out of that." It was something that I wanted to do for him, but he doesn't see that (and I'm not sure that the fact that it was pleasant for me to do something for him should invalidate the fact that it was still for him). And if he can't find something apparent that I get out of doing something for him (like hugging him so I get a hug myself), he claims that I'm hugging/touching/meeting his needs to either make myself feel better for hurting him or fix the relationship, not because I want to make him happy.

I'm really sorry - this probably sounds like I'm arguing with you - I'm really not. I've just been flummoxed by his responses so far and it's been frustrating (although pretty understandable) that he can't stop reading selfishness into everything that I do. There's nothing I'd like more right now than to surprise him in the ways that you've suggested and do something that is really, genuinely just for him to meet his needs - the tips are great and have given me loads to think about, particularly since these were things that I clearly wasn't doing before.

I do not have an answer for when or how you should initiate. I doubt anyone can give you that answer. You will just have to judge that for yourself.

No, I don't think anyone has that answer, unfortunately (although wouldn't it be grand if someone did?) For now, I think I need to tread relatively cautiously and ease into things a bit while keeping some of these techniques as the ultimate goal for a little bit down the road. Actually having something specific to work towards seems to make the some intermediate steps clearer, so that's really helpful and gives me a few things to work on.

[pilot]

It's good to know that other people have trouble finding the balance, too, but I'm so pleased that you made progress! Do you mind if I ask how you worked up to this point?

Not at all. I had basically detached to the point of indifference. It made my daily routine much much easier, and I was able to be happy and upbeat around her. I had worked on my 180s and she had definitely noticed. After about 7 weeks or so of me being strict no contact, and limiting any contact she had with me to extremely brief unless it was kid related, she seemed to have softened her heart/position. So a few days ago after we met to exchange the kids (only the 4th time I had seen her) she again initiated text contact over nothing really important. This time, I "allowed" the texting to continue. I use that term not as if I was controlling, but I mean I participated with longer responses. I still kept to DB where I would end the texting with hers being the last. But instead of being short, I gave more enthusiastic answers, and 'engaged' more. It seemed to have been the right time because for the next 2 days it was a non stop marathon. Perhaps she was just caught up in the novelty of communicating after such a long time of not, or maybe something else. I did not really concern myself with WHY but focused on that it was a positive step, and focused on NOT being overly 'happy' about it to the point it came across as too eager. It did stop pretty abruptly when my 5 year old said on the phone we were going to meet a 'friend' for dinner. haha, but that is another story altogether on my thread.

I think the being as dark as possible, and really giving her the impression (a lot based on things I said immediately prior to our S) that I was truly going to move on with out her probably helped. Cannot say for sure (mind reading) but I know nothing else I had tried (crying, pleading, etc) worked, so I just backed off completely. Why I chose that moment to carry on texting with her, I do not know. I knew she had been making more 'advances" in the past 10 days, and I was somewhat worried that her view of the road home was not very smooth looking, so I felt compelled to at least make a gesture. It may, or may not have worked. Long way for me to go though....

Best of luck to you!!!