Help Please: Chapter 2

[labug]

OK, this separation thing is a gift of time, right?

It is a period I can use to grow and improve myself. It is space from a situation that requires effort to detach from.

It is a gift I'm giving to H to grow and find himself too.

It's an opportunity for us to learn to communicate with one another in a more positive way, and the side bonus of that could potentially be reconciliation.

So why am I so upset at the distance between us if this is such a positive time? He has been friendly to me. He has been courteous and respectful of my time.

Why on earth would I want my old life back and be frustrated at this day???

You're upset at the distance because you're wishing for something else. That's the sticky part and the key to everything. No matter how much is great in our lives, it's that one thing that we feel we can't have that we focus on and allow to grow, to color our perceptions.

He's gone but he's not gone far.
You have many things to be grateful for in your life.
Choose to focus on the positives.

I should expect nothing, and proceed as though I am going to get nothing, and wait until he offers something real. Which could very possibly be never.

This has always been the case, we just don't know it until, well, until we know it.

Our Rs are so full of expectations. You know that expectations are resentments waiting to happen, right? When things we EXPECT to happen don't, then all of our fear kicks in and we react and then BAM! We're in the middle of it, wondering 'how the he!! did that happen?

Or we allow it to surface in the form of "you never blah, blah, blah" or "you always yadda, yadda, yadda" or "I always have to ..."

Stumps wrote this on his thread last week: ... then I guess the goal is to accept people as they are, where they are... Accept what they have to give when they give it...but give them space and freedom to not give it when that isn't where they are.

So true. Another point is, when we feel less expectation/resentment/shame (at not meeting those expectations) we can be more vulnerable and loving.

You know why people have affairs, or at least a big factor? It's shiny and new and exciting is one, but on a deeper level, it's making a connection with someone who at that point has nothing to hold against you, no built up history scarred with little failures and resentments.

Like soap scum in the shower.

I don't want this to turn into another novel but this jumped out at me:

I'm also not sure about dropping the reins with him. Part of our financial difficulty was that he was responsible for taking care of our finances. I assumed he was watching the budget too. But when I went to look it over it turned out he hadn't been and we were running ourselves seriously into the ground. I lost a lot of respect for him when I discovered that.

He felt that I'm sure. The day my H told me he was done was the culmination of an argument over a circumstance exactly as you describe.

How to Improve Your Marriage(book).....helped bring this dynamic in to focus for me. In general, women/mothers need (not a want, a need) to feel our nest is protected and safe. Men need to feel that they are providing appropriately and that they can keep their family safe.

That incident stirred the deepest fear and shame in my H and me, and neither of us could understand that and empathize with the other. We couldn't be that vulnerable. Our own egos, saving face, being right, got in the way of the R.

We couldn't look at the other with love and ask "Oh, danm honey, what happened here?" I knew full well he didn't want us to be going down the financial tube, he wasn't doing it TO me.

Instead he said, "I'm done!" and I said "Good, get out!"

We stuff and we stuff and we stuff because we don't want to feel the bad stuff but it all eventually comes out, in one way or another.

So I'll wrap this up by saying really think about your values and goals. I know you're not the only one to blame for this marital b/u but you're the only one here.

And the naked truth is, we can only fix ourselves.

[Maybell]

Which How to Improve Your Marriage book? I saw the one that was followed with "without talking about it" and had a testimonial by MWD. Did you have another one in mind? Can that one be done while separated?

Yes, he certainly felt my loss of respect when that happened. Definitely. I have long pointed to that period as the start of our worst problems. But he always denied it was important to him. As with most things, good and bad.

What you said about expectations being resentments waiting to happen and accepting him where he is both resonated with me. The acceptance part has been something that has been in front of me for a long while, thanks to a lovely friend who has been an amazing support this past eight months. She has what looks like a delightful marriage and I've been privileged that she has let me see a lot of the work of it close up. It is helpful to see that close marriages require a lot of work and patience and forbearance with one another.

Having just spent the week with my parents I saw some of the dynamics that I grew up with and it has really made me think about how I brought them into my own marriage.

In a nutshell: My brothers & I and my parents were playing cards together. My mother starts complaining about how she never wins, about how the cards are always against her, yadda yadda. She says this AS SHE'S RAKING IN THE KITTY and we're all paying her for the cards in our hand and she has an enormous stack of chips in front of her. Everyone is quiet and she just keeps going and then one of us makes a joke about her not having enough space for all her chips while the rest of us have been to the bank twice each. She just huffs and says "Well." And she always complains about my dad. ALWAYS. She hardly ever says anything nice about him. But he is really complimentary to her. I'm NOT saying he's perfect at all because he is very frustrating in his own way, and she does many nice things for him. But her manner is very self-centered, and it's very important to her that she be right a LOT.

I know for certain I've brought a fair amount of this into my own relationship. My dissatisfactions have been genuine but because I brought this disrespectful manner into our relationship it's been... well, for sure not as good as it could have been. As an understatement.

The time we've been apart this spring has been really amazingly helpful for my perspective. I need still more of it to be able to strengthen my awareness of my behavior. Yesterday helping with the couch was really good for that, because at first I didn't do any more than what I knew he needed me for out of... well, not for kind reasons, I guess. Stubbornness that I didn't want to make his life easier. Then as we worked on it I realized I was doing what he had always wanted, let him take the lead on this task. The longer I did that, the clearer I seemed to see him as his own person rather than "my husband." Does that make sense? And then I felt like seeing him that way changed EVERYTHING. I found myself more curious about him, much less desperate. I felt kinder toward him. And we had a lovely evening last night. (IC noted that H had been saying all along that he didn't know what he wanted).

There are excellent reasons (not all of them his) why it is too soon to say if we'll end up divorced or if we'll reconcile. But I no longer feel like I would be doomed to endless loneliness if we did manage to reconcile. What I told my IC this morning was that I no longer felt like a passenger in the car but a driver, and that the steering wheel is in my hands even though I don't know if I will go left or right. I did formerly feel like I was only a passenger in his car. Many of the things I see as barriers to reconciliation might not be, depending on how events unfold -- they may right themselves.

My values and my goals... I'm not sure where to start on those. I used to feel like I understood them very well, but I feel like I've gotten a crash course in life in the last few months and now I realize that the values I thought I had were only the big-picture items, and there is detail work to be done. As for goals... I'm not sure what you're thinking there. I'm not totally sure where my head should be. My goals at the moment are mostly smaller ones, like getting a job to make sure I'm protected financially and then sorting the logistics of finding childcare, etc. Continuing to watch myself and how things unfold with H. I'm reluctant to state goals with him while I'm watching to see how we react to each other. And I want to be cautious.

I've been having second thoughts about pushing the legal separation through. The attorney hasn't contacted me since I paid the retainer. I'm afraid of rocking the boat now that the terrain seems to have shifted for me. I feel less sure of where we are and quite a lot less belligerent.

And thank you for saying straight out that an A can be about connecting with a person who doesn't have any resentments built up against him. That makes it a lot more understandable than the other things I've been thinking.

I'm having tons of ups and downs here, but I also feel grateful to have shifted course from where I was a year ago. No matter what happens I feel bigger and better than I was, and the world doesn't look quite so cold. Isn't that funny?

[Maybell]

All right... I've been reading other people's threads. I need to think about a baby step that would mark an improvement in our relationship.

One is to try to pour on the words of affirmation as thick as is sincere and see what happens.

One is I would like to be able to have an actual conversation with him that is pleasant and not awkward and not really about the kids. We started to over dinner, but it was with the kids and got interrupted when S8 threw up.

I guess that's an ambitious start...

[Maybell]

Wow... I just read the codependency article Zues posted.

http://insidetherapy.com/codependency.html

Yeah, that's me and H both, with different aspects showing up in both of us. It's like a playlist of every weak spot in our marriage.

The good news is that the treatment described is what my IC/MC does. So if H ever does go back it might be helpful. (Seeing as I'm still going now)

H's family has always been a huge challenge for me. His parents are both heavily codependent. His mom is judgy and controlling in many of the same ways my mom is. His dad can be unpredictable and explosive. He drinks a ton, way more than anyone else I know, but it's only light beer so everyone says it's no big deal. Except that I've never seen him get through a day on fewer than four and I've never seen him have a good day with fewer than six. The family line is "That's just dad." My H doesn't drink that much but he does drink steadily and he drank a ton after BD. It scared me how much. I hope he's drinking less away from me.

My family has similar challenges but no alcohol -- my dad's dad was alcoholic but my parents rarely drink. And of course everything I find so frustrating about my mom is basically the list of codependent behaviors.

Ok, so what do I do with this information?

I guess I need to go deeper with it to learn more. I suppose it would be codependent to say I could also find out how to treat H to support his voyage of self-discovery but is it ok that understanding better will help me have patience?

And of course I need to change this pattern in myself so my kids don't need to fight this battle. Fortunately I'm already in therapy.

I see now why he didn't explain to me what was causing his dissatisfaction. That part now makes sense to me. I see why the A/OW was attractive to him, especially given labug's point about wanting connection with someone who hasn't had a ton of resentments built up.

What we really need is a clean slate, but we're both going to have to get there in our own time.

Sigh.

[labug]

Which How to Improve Your Marriage book? I saw the one that was followed with "without talking about it" and had a testimonial by MWD. Did you have another one in mind? Can that one be done while separated?

That's the one. It's clear to the point, with examples.

Yes, he certainly felt my loss of respect when that happened. Definitely. I have long pointed to that period as the start of our worst problems. But he always denied it was important to him. As with most things, good and bad.

Of course he denied it hurt. That's his work.

You know he was hurt; that's where your work is.

What you said about expectations being resentments waiting to happen and accepting him where he is both resonated with me. The acceptance part has been something that has been in front of me for a long while, thanks to a lovely friend who has been an amazing support this past eight months. She has what looks like a delightful marriage and I've been privileged that she has let me see a lot of the work of it close up. It is helpful to see that close marriages require a lot of work and patience and forbearance with one another.

I did the same thing, watched closely how my friends with strong marriages interacted. One friend always looked up and greeted her H with a smile when he walked in the room. I couldn't remember the last time I'd done that with my H.

Having just spent the week with my parents I saw some of the dynamics that I grew up with and it has really made me think about how I brought them into my own marriage.

In a nutshell: My brothers & I and my parents were playing cards together. My mother starts complaining about how she never wins, about how the cards are always against her, yadda yadda. She says this AS SHE'S RAKING IN THE KITTY and we're all paying her for the cards in our hand and she has an enormous stack of chips in front of her. Everyone is quiet and she just keeps going and then one of us makes a joke about her not having enough space for all her chips while the rest of us have been to the bank twice each. She just huffs and says "Well." And she always complains about my dad. ALWAYS. She hardly ever says anything nice about him. But he is really complimentary to her. I'm NOT saying he's perfect at all because he is very frustrating in his own way, and she does many nice things for him. But her manner is very self-centered, and it's very important to her that she be right a LOT.

I know for certain I've brought a fair amount of this into my own relationship. My dissatisfactions have been genuine but because I brought this disrespectful manner into our relationship it's been... well, for sure not as good as it could have been. As an understatement.

Our parents home is where we learn our R skills, as well as how we parent. What things do you want to unlearn?

I had a lot of things on my list.

Being aware is the start. Now you can take the responsibility for your growth.

Your kids will thank you.

The time we've been apart this spring has been really amazingly helpful for my perspective. I need still more of it to be able to strengthen my awareness of my behavior. Yesterday helping with the couch was really good for that, because at first I didn't do any more than what I knew he needed me for out of... well, not for kind reasons, I guess. Stubbornness that I didn't want to make his life easier. Then as we worked on it I realized I was doing what he had always wanted, let him take the lead on this task. The longer I did that, the clearer I seemed to see him as his own person rather than "my husband." Does that make sense? And then I felt like seeing him that way changed EVERYTHING. I found myself more curious about him, much less desperate. I felt kinder toward him. And we had a lovely evening last night. (IC noted that H had been saying all along that he didn't know what he wanted).

Great insight and experience.

There are excellent reasons (not all of them his) why it is too soon to say if we'll end up divorced or if we'll reconcile. But I no longer feel like I would be doomed to endless loneliness if we did manage to reconcile. What I told my IC this morning was that I no longer felt like a passenger in the car but a driver, and that the steering wheel is in my hands even though I don't know if I will go left or right. I did formerly feel like I was only a passenger in his car. Many of the things I see as barriers to reconciliation might not be, depending on how events unfold -- they may right themselves.

WhooHooo

My values and my goals... I'm not sure where to start on those. I used to feel like I understood them very well, but I feel like I've gotten a crash course in life in the last few months and now I realize that the values I thought I had were only the big-picture items, and there is detail work to be done. As for goals... I'm not sure what you're thinking there. I'm not totally sure where my head should be. My goals at the moment are mostly smaller ones, like getting a job to make sure I'm protected financially and then sorting the logistics of finding childcare, etc. Continuing to watch myself and how things unfold with H. I'm reluctant to state goals with him while I'm watching to see how we react to each other. And I want to be cautious.

I've been having second thoughts about pushing the legal separation through. The attorney hasn't contacted me since I paid the retainer. I'm afraid of rocking the boat now that the terrain seems to have shifted for me. I feel less sure of where we are and quite a lot less belligerent.

And thank you for saying straight out that an A can be about connecting with a person who doesn't have any resentments built up against him. That makes it a lot more understandable than the other things I've been thinking.

I'm having tons of ups and downs here, but I also feel grateful to have shifted course from where I was a year ago. No matter what happens I feel bigger and better than I was, and the world doesn't look quite so cold. Isn't that funny?

You're right where you need to be. I know, sounds trite but it's so true.
Life is one big journey with ups and downs all along it. For people who thrive on control, accepting that is difficult.

But it's so freeing.

I have one goal, to be mindful. If I can do that, everything else falls into place.

[Maybell]

I'm thinking I'd like to send him an email sharing a couple of these insights, about understanding a little better why he didn't speak up earlier about how unhappy he was, and about the fact that I did a terrible job of listening to him the few times that he did try to talk about things. I want to take back some of the hurtful things I've said and make him understand that I'm in a different place if he gets to a place where he wants to share anything.

Two questions:

1. Is this pursuing?
2. Does it matter that I don't know if he's still in touch with OW?

[labug]

Another of my friends taught me that I should, at least some of the time, treat my H like an "affair partner." Not her words but you get the point. I almost gagged when she said that, and then the, "but he doesn't...., but I don't have time or energy...., I'm tired....." started.

She also introduced me to The Ratio. One of the marriage experts, Gottman maybe, says that the magic ratio is 5:1, happy experiences to unhappy. H and I had that totally upside down. Now I don't keep track of this but I pay attention to my interactions with H and work to be compassionate and loving even if it's a tough topic. It makes a huge difference.

H has changed in response to that. Wee have a very different marriage these days.

[labug]

Actions speak louder than words. Let him see and experience what you've learned, how you've changed.

If you tell him "look how I've changed!" he'll be watching and then the first time old behaviors surface (and they will) poof! Most likely, he thinks "I knew she hadn't really changed."

When old behaviors surface and you say/do something not in alignment with who you want to be, apologize. "I'm sorry I said X. That's not who I want to be or how I want to treat you."

And let it go.

[Maybell]

So in spite of my making a point about OW in May I should let that go?

[labug]

Don't dredge up the past, it's over and done.

Move forward.