negative voice creeping in

[watto14]

I hate this time, the twins are ready for bed, and we agreed early in the s, that whoever had the boys, they would ring the other so that they could say goodnight... which means for the next 3 nights I have to ring h so the boys can say goodnight to their dad, I never know how to behave, I usually say hi and tell him who help talking to, then when they've spoken to their dad, I speak briefly, how their days gone etc, and I'm trying to remover the rules about phone conversation, to not say much and listen and don't ask questions, he seems to want to talk, asked what I was doing tonight, I replied with "I'm having a big night out" he said "oh you've organised a babysitter?" So I replied no, I'm just kidding, huge night of watching tv" then I said I better go, and ttied to hang up as he was saying "have a good night" I so wanted to ask what he was doing, how was work, but I know or I think I know that's not a good idea, this [censored] balls

[25yearsmlc]

25mlc, I agree with everything you've just said, that's exactly what happened, so I guess that's why I'm finally listening to him when he says to let him go, let him live the life he wants at this point, however, this should go both ways,

Sorry but you must lose that scorecard of yours. It's a list of grievances and has no place in a marriage. Plus they are so biased, ---Scorecards (been there, done that) help NO ONE. And guess what? Your h has his own scorecard and on his, you are not ahead.

He's NOT here trying to save the marriage, is he? So what is your goal is letting him know what YOU want from him?

Isn't he the one who wants you to let go of him? If so, you're not in any position to make demands of him at this time...and you may never be.

You CAN control how you react to his outreach. Those are your opportunities to be a busy happy upbeat woman who is GAL and feeling good about her bright future...and keeping the road home, paved and smooth (if that is what you want> b/c trust me, the road home at this point is going to be darn bumpy as it is.

I normally think if a spouse has had an affair AND realizes the damage it caused, there's a chance for recovery...BUT if they then repeat the adultery, it's a fatal flaw in them. it's a pattern.

But in your case I'm not sure --- b/c I feel as if you played a role in the original affair (which you need to face and work on, IF true)...and for sure I'd say you blew the reconciliation efforts, by punishing him for a few years, WHILE life also threw some curve balls at him/you, to boot.

What is it that you "own" as your part in all this? And what are you working on to become a woman only a fool would leave? Specifically...not just "i'm nicer", but HOW do you behave differently?

See, No WAS returns to a marriage they left, UNLESS they come to believe that

the marriage can be better/different than before.

Why would your h believe that? And since I have not read all of your thread, there's not much I can add til I do. I just wanted to answer the "should I bring it up" question with a resounding NO.



don't ring me to see how I am, don't do things for me, don't let me rely on you been around, because what happens when he's not??...

Nothing happens when he's not around IF YOU MANAGE YOUR EXPECTATIONS.

If he makes a kind gesture, you do not then have the "right" to assume he always will AND that you get to be angry at him when he does not...that kind of applies to married people in general, really.

You could use the interactions that occur when HE initiates, as opportunities to show the new you...OR you can cut him off b/c you want to punish him.
OR you can drop the rope and go dark simply b/c you really do not know how to detach. BTW, detaching always requires GAL...

OR you can keep pouncing on every gesture he makes in case you think there is a chance he'd want to reconcile...but it'll push him away again.

and given what he told you about letting him go, I would absolutely NOT act on those pouncing instincts...

He knows how to really reach you, and he can speak his mind and heart if the time comes for it.

Don't push him away but don't let your expectations jump every time he waves at you, or calls to check in with you. Read nothing into it except the hopeful possibility that every peaceful (=no fighting) interaction you have - can be built upon.

With my h, at first I was so furious, I had to make tiny goals...

So my goal was to have a phone conversation 1) at his initiation, 2) NOT turn into a fight...and 3) with Me being the one to get off the phone first. Small goals...and then I built on them.

I refused to get dragged into a conflict with him. I would NOT escalate things. When he would revise the marital history, many times there was SOME truth to his claims about my attitude or behavior

(and believe me, I felt RIGHT to be mad. For a long time...especially for a supposedly smart woman, I sure did a lot of stupid stubborn behaviors that got me nowhere and kept me stuck. That's when I realized that it was more important to be happy, than "right".

When I really let him go and STOPPED asking him, or the universe, "WHY??"

all the time it helped ME tremendously. Oh, my DB coach said questions like "who could you or why did you?"

tend to make the recipient feel defensive. I never thought of that before but it makes sense.

So I don't ask things like "how could you do/say this? AND OR "Why did you leave/abandon us?" etc...

besides, there are no "good" answers to that

So 2 huge lessons for me were
1) the whole Forgivness thing...Choosing to forgive and then learning HOW...it's a learned skill and it's a process. It's also NOT linear. There are resources out there for this...

Then, 2) I had to learn to accept something I could never understand.

I could not understand how my h could leave OUR CHILDREN, for a JOB on the Tundra ("Last Frontier" etc) ...and I probably never will. But he did. And now he's home and now,

we go "from this day forward"...like the vows say. Understand?

To sum up what my Godsent DB coach told me: You must

*Lose the anger and the scorecard. (At least don't show HIM any anger and never bring up your grievances from the past. It only serves to make him think there's just no way he'll ever be whole around you and so, why bother trying? Plus you have a history now of holding onto the anger. It has not served you well.)


*Listen to him like a lover...i.e. validate his experiences and or just LISTEN without any judgment and do not try to "fix" HIM or his problems...he's a grown man.
(( If the topic is OW, this does not apply. You end the talk and leave the area, calmly.))

*Applaud loudly for the 1% of positives he does (yes I know that is hard at times. Like "Mother Teresa" hard, but it's NOT complicated and it does work.

*Contrast the negative images he has of you, (which helped him rationalize and justify the affair and leaving you in the first place)

with NEW POSITIVE images...so if you were chronically late and he did not like that, now you are EARLY to everything. It's basic 180s but these are for you to work on so YOU become a better stronger woman.

You now Dress in a way that shows more self esteem and self respect on your end...you look your best and you are looking forward to what life has for you around the corner. THAT image is attractive.

Whereas An angry woman with a lot of ammo in her arsenal, and her fists clenched, is not appealing to a WAH.

Put your dukes down and do some inner work.

The real journey in life is an inward one.

Do you believe that? OH and one last specific...


Specifically do NOT bring up the affair(s) ever. I say this assuming you reconcile b/c if you don't, then it's a moot point.

But assuming you do piece and try to reconcile, and THEN, IF there happened to be a behavior on HIS end that triggered something in you, flooding you with unpleasant memories or trust issues (you work those out on your own unless he really does something out of bounds)

AND IF HE is ale trying to work on the m, then you can say you are "sorry H, but today when you were late from work, it triggered a memory ---but it's MY problem and I'm handling it. I hope i didn't sound angry"

(because if you do reconcile, at some point the affair will be old news...like 10 years old, or 30 years old...so no, you don't get to keep on harping about it and

yes you DO have to handle it on your own, at some point...

or you'll always be alone)

I hope this^^ helps. I'm sorry you are in this situation but this place is the best place to come for a lousy reason.

I'll try to see where your original thread is or maybe you can do a quick summary.

[25yearsmlc]

I hate this time, the twins are ready for bed, and we agreed early in the s, that whoever had the boys, they would ring the other so that they could say goodnight... which means for the next 3 nights I have to ring h so the boys can say goodnight to their dad, I never know how to behave, I usually say hi and tell him who help talking to, then when they've spoken to their dad, I speak briefly, how their days gone etc, and I'm trying to remover the rules about phone conversation, to not say much and listen and don't ask questions, he seems to want to talk,

Not sure what "seems to" means but YOU are busy GAL so you have to be brief and upbeat... "cool places to go, fun things to do, interesting people to meet" and let there be a bit of vagueness in your answer...after you LISTENED to him...but do NOT disclose about yourself. It's NOT sharing time.

He asked you to let him go. Start doing that.

asked what I was doing tonight, I replied with "I'm having a big night out" he said "oh you've organised a babysitter?" So I replied no, I'm just kidding, huge night of watching tv" then I said I better go, and ttied to hang up as he was saying "have a good night"

Sound happier about GAL (which you have to actually DO, too) and let him say goodbye but remember, YOU are saying it first. Politely say "Sorry but I'm in a bit of a rush but nice talking to you, glad to hear X went well (or "sorry you had a rough meeting at work", etc and GET OFF THE PHONE...he will notice but he will not tell you that.)


I so wanted to ask what he was doing, how was work, but I know or I think I know that's not a good idea, this [censored] balls

Have you read the Div Busting or Div Remedy books? You must do so b/c that question about whether you should ask him what his plans were or where he was going or about HIS life, is easy to answer.

NO, you do NOT ask him any questions. Here are the newbie rules (guidelines really) and you must follow them until you really digest what the books say.


1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!

2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.

3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!

4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.

5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.

6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.

7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.

8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)

9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.

10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)

11. Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)

12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them, and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.

15. When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.

17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) so this takes patience on your behalf.

21. Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.

22. Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.

23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!

24. Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell). Sometimes the right thing to say is nothing.

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.

29. Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.

30. Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.

32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.

34. Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.

35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.

36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.

37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

38. Know that in time, you really will be happy again, regardless of your spouse’s choices. Know this, believe it, and let it show.

39. Do not believe that showing your spouse your pain and misery proves your love for them. It just makes it harder to be around you.

40. Don’t worry about how the past is viewed. You do not have to see it the same exact way. What matters is this day and “from this day forward.”
Learn to let go of the past and what you cannot control. It’s a lot to let go of, but it is SO freeing.

[watto14]

thank you for replies 25mlc, I have ordered the dr and db books, they should be here in a week or so, I am really looking forward to reading them, everyone on here is so positive about them
idon't know if you had a chance to read my original thread so ill try to condense, or maybe even explain my story a bit clearer..
I met my h the weekend I s from my first h, it was not planned, I was already emotionally messy the 10 yrs I spent with first h, he was a drugged addicted binge drinker, and though I didn't see it at the time, emotionally abusive, so when I me my now h, I couldn't believe men like him existed, he was kind, knew what he wanted, a had worker and fun(not to mention very masculine, handsome) I told him that it would be a rocky ride at the beginning, and I can still remember him wrapping his arms around me and saying "i wouldn't be here if I didn't want to be"

I was living three hours from him for the first 4 months we were together and then I moved up to his town, as my weeks were getting shorter, as I just wanted to be with him.

within a couple of months we had moved out of the house we shared with his brother, moved into a house together

the first 12 months we were together was amazing, I was at peace, I was secure in the knowledge that I was loved, then my anxiety kicked in, the self doubt crept in, and because I have spent my entire life surrounded by chaos and drama I didn't know what to do with this man who just wanted to "be"
so I did what I do so well which is create drama, whether it was feeling sick, or crying for no reason or having anxiety attacks, I created it, I think because I didn't know how to sit in the silence.

I do realise now, that all he wanted to do was love me and look after me, and I had to push, push for a reaction, push him away because I know what rejection feels like. and I have said this to him recently, and I have apologised for my role in getting us to where we are.

so then I wanted to open a salon, and he supported this, we got engaged, we got pregnant with our first son, it was an absolute whirlwind, and he was only 23 at the time.

he quit his job to manage the salon, then when we had our son, he was the sahd, as I was working full time to keep the money coming in, I know this was a hard time for him because he wanted to provide for his family.

after a few months he went to work at one of the local pubs, he was working 50-60 hrs a week, had an 18 month old son, and a wife who was not coping at all, anxiety etc, this is when the first a occurred, it was, I believe more ea than pa, she listened, told him he was a great guy, validated him I guess, when I found out I crumbled, he was sorry and wanted to stay with me, I made him quit his job, get a new ph number, anything iasked he was willing to do.

I thought, wrongly now, I know, that I had moved past it, but would make 'jokes' about his gf, and similar, I would ring or text incessantly, and when he didn't answer(and I wouldn't either) I would keep ring so that he would have 20 30 missed calls from me.

we tried for 18mnths to have another baby, got pregnant and has a misc. then two mnoths later we got preg with the twins, when I was 5 weeks preg, (we had just found out) my h father had a heart attack and passed away very suddenly, he was my h anchor, best mate, and my h was the one to find his dad, he was absolutely devasted and I was too, as he was the only true father figure I had ever known.

h then had to deal with his fathers will being contested, court mediation, his brothers, this went on nearly two years, and he really wasn't able to grieve properly, I think there is some ptsd in there.

so last year, h began to withdraw more, he was never really "here" when he was home, always late home from work, or out til early hours, nov last year was when the second a occred, I don't know how long for, or what exactly happened, and the only reason I know about it at all, is because I violated every thing of his, his phone, his android tablet, his emails, his fb acc.

I confronted him, told him to get out, he went to leave and I broke down, he said he didn't want to go and that hed go to mc, which he did, and he got th whole mindfulness thing well before idi, and was really willing to move forward.

so fast forward to march this year, he went on a day at the races, came home at 2 in th morning, me being me was seething, but chose to sit on it, and wrote him a letter the next day(which was meant to be from 'love', but it was pure controlled anger) I told I deserved respect, honesty and love(yep iwent thwere) and now he to make a choice, so he did, he told me hadn't been happy for a really long time, didn't know what was making him unhappy, but he thought it would be a good idea for us to separate.

I panicked, did all the wrong things, you know the drill, for two months he floated between home, his mums, and a local hotel, we seemed to be going well, lots of intimacy, talking ect and when he moved into his own place, he gave me a key and said it was so I could come and go as I pleased.

this was going well then he let a male work friend move in to help the friend out, the dynamic changed, I panicked as I thought this was going ruin our chances of r, so I pushed and h retreated, the collegue has left, my h dropped the b on wed and said he will always love me and want to protect me but its just not there....

sorry I took so long, kind of cathartic to get it out though :S

[25yearsmlc]

Well,

I think you have hit the nail on the head about doing all the wrong things. You have let fear direct you and yes, it HAS brought about things that you feared and at least factored in his choice to retreat.

You seem to see clearly what your role was and is in the present situation and how the both of you got here.

So, what's missing? First, while you have insight into the mistakes you made and keep making, why won't you get help to STOP making them?

It's not easy but it sure is not complicated. Learn to STFU and stop pursuing him. Just stop. And the anger has worsened your situation exponentially. You seem to own that, but then, really "owning" it would mean Not repeating it.

you need to exert some self control now and not keep making things worse.
BACK way off.

Second, the thing that is missing is WHAT are your GAL and 180s?

Again, not complicated. You must begin doing FUN healthy things and NOT keep your focus on him.

Okay so in the past, you see how your choices got you into trouble, correct?

So NOW, you write this:


I panicked, did all the wrong things, you know the drill, for two months he floated between home, his mums, and a local hotel, we seemed to be going well, lots of intimacy, talking ect and when he moved into his own place, he gave me a key and said it was so I could come and go as I pleased.

this was going well then he let a male work friend move in to help the friend out, the dynamic changed, I panicked as I thought this was going ruin our chances of r,

Why would you panic? And act on that fear? I mean this is a clear cut case of you repeating behaviors that were harmful to your marriage in the past, and yet expecting a new different result. That's what they define as "insane behavior", (doing the same thing again & again, but thinking "this time" it'll be different"). It's not different, it's more of the same and makes ANY changes on your part, a lot harder to believe in.

CHANGE Watto...CHANGE...or keep doing the same old thing, at your peril.

If anything is going to "ruin the chance of r", it's Your behavior. Get a g r i p.


so I pushed and h retreated,


Um, does this^^ surprise you at all? Why do you sabotage your r? THAT is the first big question.

the collegue has left, my h dropped the b on wed and said he will always love me and want to protect me but its just not there....

sorry I took so long, kind of cathartic to get it out though :S


So, what do you want to do? B/C if you want to save the m, You have to do some serious work on yourself.

you have repeatedly sabotaged the marriage. You still are.

I already asked you why that is, and as important a question as that is, the MAIN question now is, HOW CAN YOU STOP?? (IMO, you will need professional help for that and hey, no shame in that. Most of us had good ICs and or a DB coach, so we get it.)


I know one thing that will help you is to GAL, and man, you better do that GAL stuff soon.

Otherwise you'll keep obsessing, and the more you do that, the harder detaching is, and the easier stalking and snooping become.

The more you GAL, the less fear you'll have, and Fear will be in less control of your choices.

STOP the sabotaging and START the GAL.

[watto14]

I am seeing a c, and am working on my self sabotage, the GAL is harder, I have consistently lived my life for others and now I find myself, trying to find myself. I am making new friends outside our normal circle, which is good, I am doing some 180s but are they purely a list of things I did in the past put in reverse? Silly question I know, I'm still waiting for my dr and db books to arrive.
I am doing my best to stfu, but I worry that I'm coming across as angry or that I am being mean.

[watto14]

Today has been long and hard, all three boys have some kind of tummy bug and all three had to be treated for head lice, the joys of boys! It's days like this I am aware of where I am, and that I just have to keep going, one foot in front of the other...

[watto14]

the boys have spoken to their dad tonight and then we had to have a chat to work out what was going on this week, between their birthday, who would look after them tomorrow, the logistical stuff, then h asked how my night was last night, I kept it as short and upbeat as I could, I didn't ask questions about what he did, he volunteered the info himself, I let him talk, didn't try to fill the silence, then I ended saying I better go, I think I did ok.
he bought up again that he was taking Wednesday off to celebrate the boys bday, I replied that I thought that was great, that the boys will love it, and that it will be a great day for them.
I really miss him, I love the sound of his voice, this is really really hard