Sex was great, part 2

[25yearsmlc]

@25years----------sorry your problems are worse than mine. I am. That seems to be the reason everyone gives me here when they tell me to shut up about my problems. My wife never had a historectomy, though. I'm sorry about your husband and your issues but millions of people have it even worse than that, too, if it helps.

If you think I consider these^^ "issues", you missed the point of the post. I'm FINE with what is happening. It's just life. My h is not doing this to me, just as your wife is not doing this 'to you".



Again, I'm a good husband, and I only come here for advice on one subject BECAUSE it's an area of expertise for the woman who created the site and wrote books on the subject. For now, I'm shutting up about it even here because that's the advice I was given, but for what it's worth I don't think about it much, it's only even some of the times I do think about it that I get stressed and I'm trying to find a way to deal with that stress----for now, getting better sleep is a priority.

@GG---------I may yet have Apserger's. ---


how important or relevant do You think this ^^ is now?

--Right now, my focus is on better sleep. So I'm taking a bubble bath every night. No joke. We have a nice tub, jets and everything. No internet two hours before bed. No TV. No sweets 4 hours before bed (I was already doing most of these things). If I can't sleep, I have a pad and paper to write anything down as fast as I can, non-stop. I'll be getting more regular exercise running the dogs.

Good ideas...I may try some.

[25yearsmlc]

PS

So, as I asked, WHAT specifically did you say to your w and what, specifically, did she say back to you, the


"One time" you brought up not having enough sex?

[MrBond]

"That seems to be the reason everyone gives me here when they tell me to shut up about my problems."

Where did you get that from? No one told you that. Everyone is just offering you a perspective from your W's POV that you may not understand or consider.

"For now, I'm shutting up about it even here because that's the advice I was given,"

No one has told you that. The general consensus seems to have been just to not make it always about your needs. In fact, I as well as others, have said you should have a heart to heart with your W about it.

[Starsky309]

Yeah, actually we kinda did.

[GoatGal]

For the record, the Asperger's thing is only relevant because, if it applies, it might provide an explanation for the way Grey is having difficulty processing his situation, as well as some difficulty processing the input he is getting from all of us.

It would explain the frustration we all feel, trying to talk to someone who seems to see things in very concrete terms and keeps going around and around without making any headway.

And I think we can all agree something is amiss in the translation here.

(Grey--do NOT take this personally. I don't know you... but I feel your suffering, I really do. There is something you're not taking away from all this, something is missing. A.S. is only my guess because I see the same issues in myself. It is not a failing of yours, only a way of thinking that, even if it's not AS, is not the "general" way most people approach this type of thing. )

So it's a possible explanation for why Grey seems "stuck" in the thinking loop, and having difficulty seeing things from another perspective. That is the number one difficulty AS folks have, as a rule.

It is NOT an excuse, but just something to help him understand himself better, thereby improving his relationships with everyone.

I don't think it's helpful to tell him he's selfish and needs to go have a wank... I don't think that's it. Clearly he is distraught and clearly he is reaching out for support.

It's just not getting through on the normal channels.

But---if it does apply---it absolutely would be affecting his marriage in ways he might not consciously pick up on without some serious introspection.


As someone who often misses the obvious, complicates the simple, simplifies the complicated, and takes the microscopic view of things as a rule, my heart goes out to him in ways that might seem inexplicable to others here.

Just my two cents.

Which is worth exactly that!

---GGG

[JCred]

Yeah, actually we kinda did.

I agree Starsky. I know as I have been reading this thread some are coming across to me that he should "shut up". Maybe they aren't saying that in actual words, but I agree with what I believe Grey is hearing because that is what I seem to be kind of hearing also. I am hearing.."Hey, you don't have it so bad, quit complaining and stop thinking about yourself and think about what your wife is feeling"

Now I know people don't think that is what they are saying, but that is also what I am reading and hearing.

(Well, we really don't know what his wife is feeling, and the only way to find out is to see if we can get her to talk about it in an adult manner because anything else is just an educated guess at best.)

I would say that maybe if the advice one gives doesn't seem to be heard, try a different approach.. You know what they say when you don't jive with a therapist. Go find another therapist. (just sayin)

I hear you Grey. I do. I think you did a smart thing by coming on here and looking for some direction.



Here is a bit of what Michelle says on the topic...

Do (or did) you and your spouse have significantly different levels of desire for sex? If so, you are not alone. Did you know that 1 in 3 couples has a sexual desire gap? But just because you aren't alone, it doesn't mean you should be complacent about a ho-hum sexual relationship. You shouldn't. It can lead to a miserably angry spouse, infidelity and divorce. If you don't believe me, watch this TEDx talk on The Sex-Starved Marriage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep2MAx95m20

And although solutions to this sexual divide abound in magazines, self-help books and other pop psychology outlets, there is a little talked about fact underlying the problems associated with this sexual void.

The No's have veto power.

Here's the scoop. The spouse with lower sexual drive controls the frequency of sex -- if she or he doesn't want it, it generally doesn't happen. This is not due to maliciousness or a desire for power and control, it's just seems unimaginable to be sexual if one is not in the mood.

Furthermore, there is an unspoken and often unconscious expectation that the higher desire spouse must accept the no-sex verdict, not complain about it and remain monogamous. After decades of working with couples, I can attest that this is an unfair and unworkable arrangement.

This is not to say that infidelity is a viable solution to disparate sexual interests. It isn't. As with all relationship conflicts, being willing to find middle ground is the best way to insure love's longevity.

I will talk to you about it Grey. I believe you are doing the right thing by trying to nip this in the bud NOW, before it is too late.

My suggestion is to get a game plan for having another talk with your wife. I don't believe that she REALLY feels and understands how important this issue is and will become unless you have a heart to heart. Maybe you will have to write her a letter first. That is something we have to figure out.

The first step to me is that you need to feel safe on here to be able to discuss your frustrations without feeling like you have to shut up and defend yourself. I must be seeing things differently because I don't see you being selfish at all about this issue. It's just a fact, that this is an important need you have within a relationship. Of course you can learn to live without it, but I don't believe that was your reason for asking for advice on this issue. You want your wife to want to have sex with you more, and you want to feel like she really wants it too.

We need to get you some type of game plan for communicating this to your wife. The game plan needs to make sure the way you express it is correct, the timing as good as possible, and a plan for your replies for each and every possible reaction we can think of that she may or could have.

Just my opinion...

Good luck

[GoatGal]

Grey,

So quiet today!

I hope this is a good sign. Maybe it indicates that you have broken the cycle and moved onto other things---good things---instead of focusing on the negative.

Today has been weird for me; H has been here and I just don't have clear perspective in my own situation. No clarity, only questions. As well as great answers I don't yet understand but am trying to accept at face value.

So I hope you're out GALing...

I'm gonna go set up my DJ playlist for tomorrow night's gig, and see if I can't catch one of my dogs to trim those pesky "behind the ears" matts.

They HATE that!


Cheers!

---GGG

[Grey]

@JCred

My suggestion is to get a game plan for having another talk with your wife. I don't believe that she REALLY feels and understands how important this issue is and will become unless you have a heart to heart. Maybe you will have to write her a letter first. That is something we have to figure out.

We need to get you some type of game plan for communicating this to your wife. The game plan needs to make sure the way you express it is correct, the timing as good as possible, and a plan for your replies for each and every possible reaction we can think of that she may or could have.

This, to me, is the outlier. I can't talk to her about any important issue, lease of all this one.

I tried to again last night. Just talk. We had a great weekend, both of us did some chores and some cleaning, we went out all over town Friday night with her friends, took the dogs to the park together Sunday, it was a great weekend. I thought Sunday night would be a good time to talk, not about our sexless marriage, but about what I can do better.

“Nothing.” I asked a question from a book, she has mentioned she wanted to read one of my books but never did, so I try “hints” at getting her to try to work on this marriage with me, like asking a question from a book every now and then (in truth, it’s only been four questions come to think of it).

But that’ just it------just trying to talk, it becomes something she doesn’t want to do. And she doesn’t do anything she doesn’t want to do. She thinks it’s all me, that’s what she says anyway. She says, “you just need to focus on you,” of course she’s yelling by this point and I can’t get her to stop (we don’t have a “safe word” or technique to stop a disagreement before it becomes a fight because she hasn’t read about anything like that and I tried to talk to her about having a safe word or “time out” once and she got more upset).

So I go to therapy on my own and my therapist doesn’t understand why I’m there. My wife thinks my therapist is going to tell me why I shouldn’t feel so rejected and alone and will convince me to be happy in a sexless marriage.

I haven’t tried a letter. I kept quiet and followed the best advice I thought and tried to talk about us again (everyone seems to agree that talking about issues and being 100% honest is crucial). I’m not 100% honest, at least for now---I explicitly don’t talk about my desire for sex or her lack thereof, just for the record. So I’m lying. That’s what it feels like. I’m lying to my wife.

And in the meantime, she’s happy…UNTIL I try to talk about marriage. If I never brought it up again, she’d be happy. She IS happy----me asking what I can do better, that makes her unhappy. It makes her shut down, then she yells, then she gets angry and stays angry at me, even overnight.

Meanwhile, I can’t sleep. It’s one thing to not think or talk about your problems, but not sleeping makes almost everything else impossible. It’s not that I’m up all night thinking about ways to get my wife to have sex with me. I’m not. But when my wife is angry with me just for trying to talk (the one thing I keep being told I need to do), I can’t just turn it off and be ok and sleep right next to her right away. So now I’m sleep-deprived but still expected to be perfect all the time AND not talk about it? It’s impossible for me, but at the very least, it HURTS. That’s what makes me feel alone.

I feel frustrated and alone. Yes, I feel like I’m meeting her needs and she is unwilling to talk about meeting mine no matter what they were, but what if it’s not just me feeling that way? What if that’s the reality? She said she wants marriage counseling, only she wants to set it up. She hasn’t done that, so when I try to, she gets upset again. When I asked last, she was waiting on a psychiatrist friend to give her recommendations of a few counselors on her insurance. Unfortunately, she didn’t know any of those counselors so she didn’t have any advice about which one to pick. Then my wife asked me to ask my therapist, who also didn’t know any of them. So nothing happened.

I’ve heard advice about writing a note before, but I’m afraid to do that. Any and every time I try to talk with my wife about improving our marriage she shuts down and reaches a point almost immediately where anything said will do more harm than good----at that point, she simply can’t think or communicate clearly. She never changed her name----it’s still her creep ex-husband’s name, for example. And I never bring that up. I never have. But it helps reinforce this lonely feeling I have.

So GAL, right? I do that. But when I do “too much” of that she feels alone and needy so I go meet her needs and spend more time. It’s not that I don’t spend enough time with her (I have been keeping a calendar to ensure I spend at least 14 hours a week listening to her, either just talking or walking with the dogs or eating, etc., anything without TV or other people involved), so I don’t get it. I spent Saturday afternoon with a good friend recovering from a divorce. He’s actually doing great, super happy right now, I hadn’t seen him in months. My wife was fine with me spending time with him. I have a life, I’m organizing an art show for September, I have my own friends, I take her out with her friends, I read, paint, train the dogs in the morning while she sleeps, etc. If I get too much “GAL,” then SHE feels rejected. It’s like she wants me to be there all the time, but she doesn’t want to love me? I get such conflicting signals…but I can’t talk to her about them.

And here we are again. I tried to talk, she got upset, now I have to wait a week to try again, and in the meantime I have to be happy about taking her to her friend’s house for the holiday so she can get drunk and meet all the rest of her needs all week long and I’m supposed to not just be ok with it, I’m supposed to be happy with it? I’m not happy. I don’t even know what to do when I get home tonight----I feel like I’m supposed to act like nothing happened, like we (I?) didn’t try to talk last night, like I’m supposed to lie and fake it. I’m not supposed to buy her flowers because that’s needy, I’m not supposed to cook dinner because then it feels contrived, I’m not supposed to text her all day (I’m working 18 hours) because that’s clingy, what kind of a relationship is that? She’s not cheating, but I’m almost to the point I wish she was just so I’d have some reason to sincerely be upset. I don’t know what to do.

[claire7]

Reading this made me wonder what was going on in my husband's mind before he told me he wanted to move out and then did so that same evening. Clearly he had been feeling things were dire for a while. I wasn't very happy either, but certainly didn't expect he would just up and leave me. In fact, by the time he agreed to go to counseling, he was already done so it was a waste of time-- he wasn't invested in saving our relationship at that point.

But I wonder what would have happened if he had written me a letter and poured out his true feelings-- his fears, his wishes, etc. Maybe if I knew how unhappy he was, I would have been quicker to get the help I needed for my issues. Not a threat or ultimatum, but more like, "I love you but I'm afraid....and I want us to work on this together".

I think I would have listened to him and taken action.

I will also say that even though I was in crisis (depressed, highly anxious, withdrawn and exhausted all the time), the thought of getting help was completely overwhelming to me. My H became impatient and critical. What if he had shown empathy and also vulnerability and true, loving support-- even though I resisted.

What if the issue was not depression or lack of sex drive, but smoking or addiction or obesity or something else that affects your health but can be hard to get control over? How would you deal with that?

What if you drafted a bit of what you want to say to her here, and vets can give you some feedback and perspective? Stay optimistic, and have a problem- solving mindset...

[HopefulStill]

Grey,
I you are not happy, and sex is a deal breaker for you, then perhaps you should separate. Let her know that you tried talking to her about this, but her unwillingness to even discuss the subject of your M has caused you to feel so unhappy that you need a separation.

In a successful M you need communication, and you need to meet each others most important needs. If she cannot, or will not, do this, then you need to think about what you are really in here. Is it a M? Not by my definition. You are roommates that get along really well. Perhaps a separation is in order until she is willing to sit down with you and put some work into your M.

If your W continues to shut you out and not meet your needs, it is only a matter of time before you meet someone that will. Asking for a S while you give her a chance to meet your needs would spare her from that trauma.

Just my 2 cents.

-HS