Help Please: Chapter 2

[labug]

I don't have the means to fix it like I did back then and it would be stupid to anyway so now I have to watch and see if he ever does the work to fix it for himself or if I'm just not worth the effort to him.

I'm not understanding this, could you say more?

And why did your needs never get resolved?

Enjoy your vacation! Sounds lovely.

[Maybell]

When we had the 3-day break up when we were dating I read Men Are From Mars because I felt like I didn't understand him. He had been telling me before that incident the times when he wanted space and though I heard him I really didn't understand what he meant, how much he wanted, what space meant to him... I started feeling really insecure in the relationship and that was part of why that incident escalated to a break up.

After I read the book I felt like I understood better, so when we got back together I told him I felt like I understood better what he'd been trying to ask for and that I wanted to have better balance in our relationship. That was how we got back together.

It didn't occur to me at the time that the "balance" had all swung the other way. It took afew years for me to realize how often he dodges the things I'd like him to do -- the number of family weddings on my side he's dodged, for instance, just because he'd rather not go. (Or that's how i felt because i don't get much explanation) So although I had always thought of that incident as something about myself that needed fixing, there really were two sides to it and only one side got dealt with (not mine).

The things that drove us apart more recently aren't ONLY my faults. Some of them are, and I'm working on them here and in real life. Some of them are circumstances, though, or things, like the rental house that was too small, that he left to my judgment that in retrospect I think he would have done differently if he had chosen to make time to participate in the decision. Those things I can not solve for. I think he could develop better skills for participating in our life together rather than being so passive and conflict avoidant, learn to be a little more generous with his communications, and it would solve a lot of our problems. But I'm not sure he sees that part or even sees it as something that is not hard-wired but is improve able.

Some of that sentence that you quoted was passive-aggressive and angry so not worth my trying to explain. I was just acting out. (The I don't think he thinks I'm worth it part. But considering he had an affair and I don't know if he's still hung up on her, that he's moving into his apartment this week and has said he doesn't love me, I can be excused for thinking he might not think I'm worth that kind of effort?...)

He truly is extraordinarily difficult to communicate with. He doesn't like to be detailed. When he gets detailed he gets so overwhelmed by too many possibilities and shuts down. If he doesn't understand EXACTLY what something means he won't engage about it. The two MCs we saw both found him challenging for that reason (though the 2nd one did better about drawing him out of it). He doesn't like to look into the future so it has always been difficult to make plans or long-term goals with him, so there has been a certain insecurity in not understanding what we were ever working towards. If we disagreed about something it was either his way or my way because he has a hard time explaining which Part of a plan he objects to or agrees with. The longer we've lived that way the harder it is for me to not adopt those poor skills too. In fairness.

He has been sort of reaching out to me, ish, in the last week, encouraging me to contact him if I want to. I haven't, except for kid stuff, and to be just friendly enough that he can't think I'm angry with him. I don't know how to act around him so I'm making it a 180 that I don't force that particular issue and I leave lots and lots of space for him to drive the bus if he wants to.

Help me, labug, you're my only hope.

[labug]

( ... had to clean the coffee spew off my screen)

It probably is an effort for him, as he might feel like you're from Venus. Sounds like his processing skills are different.

As an aside, as I was working through all my sh!t (and that's ongoing) during the S in our M, I came to know that all I was doing was really for me and my future. Yes, it could and did make it possible for my M to come back together but, I knew before that happened that I needed this experience because it forced me to find the tools to heal myself.

It also allowed me to look at M and what it meant, with new eyes. I also had that "we NEED to/should do certain things together because we're married" weddings, work parties, get-togethers in our neighborhood. That's the model I had seen and what i thought M had to look like.

I have an acquaintance who was a leader (she's moved) in n'hood events, had her own business, physically active, 3 beautiful Ds, but I rarely saw her and her H together. I thought "hmmm must not be a happy M." Wrong, they're very happy, they just accept each other for who they are. Being social is her thing, not his. She's a strong woman and doesn't feel that he has to accompany her to things he doesn't want to do. And let's face it, probably 2/3 of the social obligations we keep are things we'd really rather not do. But we do it because we've been taught we should.

This past Sunday, I wanted to take a drive up the mountain and be cool (it's HOT! in the desert now). Sunday morning I invited H to come with me. He felt he needed to visit his mom so I went alone. As I was leaving he said "I hate for you to go alone." I said, "Don't cause I don't want you to go if you don't want to be there."

I took my book and a lunch and sat and read and felt the cool breeze and listened to birds. It was beautiful.

In the past I might would have expected him to come and if he didn't, anger, hurt, resentment would follow. There would have been curt words, guilt, silence...

I take this tack with most things now. I have a need (cool mountain breezes, go to a party, attend event) I invite him, he's free to join me or not. I have no expectations about his choice. His needs are different. I'm responsible for my needs.

"What will people think?" I don't care. As long as the 2 people involved in the decision are happy with it, it doesn't matter what others think. My primary R is with my H, not the peanut gallery.

This takes a lot of pressure off my H, and allows him to be more attentive to the R in other areas. We took the 5LLs quiz when we were coming back together. It was insightful and we now have a common language for needs and we both feel comfortable in asking for what we need.

Had I really needed him to come with me on Sun, I would have said that and he would have made the trip with me. But there has to be that mutual respect to differing needs, give and take and negotiation. Less expectations, shoulds and have-tos.

It didn't occur to me at the time that the "balance" had all swung the other way. It took afew years for me to realize

I like that you put balance in quotes because it indicates you know there's never really a 50/50, one or the other is always giving a little more.

If you didn't realize until a few years later, he can't be faulted for not seeing it. When you recognized this, what did you do about it? Clearly knowing our needs (and these are independent of the R) and being able to state them is key t this process. What was your need in this instance?

Some of them are circumstances, though, or things, like the rental house that was too small, that he left to my judgment that in retrospect I think he would have done differently if he had chosen to make time to participate in the decision. Those things I can not solve for. I think he could develop better skills for participating in our life together rather than being so passive and conflict avoidant, learn to be a little more generous with his communications, and it would solve a lot of our problems. But I'm not sure he sees that part or even sees it as something that is not hard-wired but is improve able.

The part in blue reads like equal parts mind-reading and you-judging-you.

The last part, I'm sure I have something almost word for word written in my past posts. I probably have a whole volume of "If he would only..."

I had everything figured out so my H had no need to participate, it was just easier if I did it myself. When he did get involved, I saw it as intruding or mucking up my plans or too little too late, or rolled my eyes.

Then I would whine that he never got involved, I had to make all the decisions. It was the dog chasing the tail.

It was my own fear and anxiety that made me the "Decider" and I had to calm that to be able to step back and see what happened when I dropped the reins.

Disaster did not ensue.

Bottom-line we can only change ourselves but in that process, those around us are given the space to change. You have to look deep and see what it is you want to change, what's holding you back. People who make us crazy are usually a good mirror, as they're reflecting something in us that we don't like. When someone triggers me these days, my first thought (well, maybe second) is hmmm, there's something I need to work on. I don't try to fix them, I work on fixing me.

I don't know your H, he may not be capable but your M is probably worth a shot, right? It's not an easy journey but it is so worth it.

I don't want this to come across as I did all the changing and H did none because that would be false. He's changed a lot and is still changing, he feels safe.

I can only truthfully relate my process.

Take a deep breath, and another, and another, accept the present moment and see what your world is reflecting to you.

[Maybell]

Labug, I read your post several times and cried each time. It all sounded so familiar. I want to respond more fully but I can't seem to get my thoughts in order so I'm going to sit on it for another day till I can get the pieces to fall into place.

In the meantime... H is kind of reaching out to me, ish. I'm struggling with how to respond to him. I am conflicted between maintaining my detachment and dimness, which I find helpful, and being friendly enough -- especially since I want to draw a boundary while I don't know his feelings for OW. Suggestions are welcome.

He hasn't actually said he wants a divorce. He just said he needed space and time to figure out what he wants. And then signed a big expensive lease and plans on spending a ton of money on furniture. And felt like the "friendship" with OW (who lives overseas) was too important to abandon.

I don't know how to conduct myself with him.

[KGirl]

I really liked that post, too. Perhaps putting out a cry for someone to be your only hope works?

I don't have any advice for you, Maybell, because I struggle with the same thing (do I be friendly because being friendly will rebuild an R, or do I not get involved in conversations w/ him until he actually has intentions of working on an R?) but hopefully someone else will. I also wanted to note that one of your posts awhile ago really resonated with me and I was reflecting back on it today after labug's post - I also felt like I wanted my H to get up and try new things, go out to dinner, go out on dates, etc., without success. He just wanted to watch TV, play video games, and order a pizza in. Rather than doing things on my own or with others I just got resentful that he was lazy and "preventing" me from doing things. I had always felt like your spouse was supposed to be your built-in partner to do things with, and that was one of the perks of being M. I thought things would be better when he got a new, less stressful/time consuming job about a year ago. Instead, he decided that the job SHOULD have made him happier, but it didn't, therefore I must be the issue (new job didn't work, buying a house didn't work, getting a cat didn't work, getting an XBOX 360 didn't work...) I liked labug's response, too, about those obsessions filling a hole that only they can fix. My H won't mention the D word, just says he "doesn't think he wants to be married" anymore...

[labug]

I'm glad my words are useful.

You're in a R with this guy for the rest of your life so you'll have to communicate with him. Humor worked for me. I quit being so dad-blamed serious about everything and would be light and humorous as much as I could. I would be straight forward and matter-of-fact when that was called for. No P/A BS (I was a master)or emotional blackmail.

Being detached doesn't have to mean you never communicate, it's more about the emotions you detach from. Every interaction isn't charged. If you're not there yet, you're not there yet.

State your boundary here as you see it.

[Maybell]

Ok, I got out a pen & paper and organized my thoughts.

Do I need for him to attend certain kinds of events with me just because we're married? No, not since that episode. In fact quite a lot of my life has been conducted solo because of his travel schedule. He hasn't attended a wedding or funeral with me in seven years -- and he was in that wedding, which was my brother's. We've made four interstate moves in the last thirteen years and in each state I've established a life for myself doing things that matter to me independently of him. Sometimes he participates but generally he does not.

My love language, however, is quality time, and not that much of our time together is very good quality. I struggle to find things we can both enjoy together so even though he would sometimes do things for me because I asked him to, it was always fairly clear that he wasn't enjoying it. But he could never suggest a way we could spend time together that didn't involve a screen. I have become a person who hates screen time.

Is it wrong for me to wish he would sometimes offer or suggest things I enjoy just as a show of affection? Not expecting him to mind read or do it often. But suggesting something other than watching HIS favorite shows as together time would go a long way with me. Him sitting on the couch next to me while he plays xbox, rather than in an armchair across the room, would matter to me. But he wouldn't. Even if I asked. I will freely admit that there is a lot of resentment built up on my side because I feel so unimportant to him. He said in MC that he was aware of how frustrated I was and just that knowledge made it seem impossible for him to ever do anything about it. So then he got frustrated too.

I know he wants me to be happy. But when I wanted to do things it was always, "great, I want you to be happy. Go do it." And I very often had the sense he felt like he had done enough if he had done that much, even if I sometimes wanted him to be a part of it. Just going along was all he could bring himself to do. It was lonely.

I did hesitate to put in the if only he would change part because I knew I'd be called out (nicely) for it. I know there is a lot I've done wrong and I am still very willing to examine my own expectations for anything I should adjust. But it is also very true that there are things about living with him that I absolutely can not go back to. As little as I want this separation, and as much as I want to repair the relationship, now that the cork has been popped on breaking up, I will not accept a marriage as lonely as ours has been. Even if it costs me a divorce.

I'm also not sure about dropping the reins with him. Part of our financial difficulty was that he was responsible for taking care of our finances. I assumed he was watching the budget too. But when I went to look it over it turned out he hadn't been and we were running ourselves seriously into the ground. I lost a lot of respect for him when I discovered that. He can run international companies but not our household. I told him I felt like we'd lost our closeness and he said "we're fine" and a year later started an affair while I was moving our household cross country again. How can I give up the role of Chief Decider when these are the results?

I do love my H. I would prefer we could mend our relationship so that we have a wonderful marriage. We're complementary and at our best make a good team. But neither of us has been in our best in a really long time.

Detaching: yeah, easy to do when he's abroad. I'm worried about coping with all the inputs of having him in town for a few weeks. Probably borrowing trouble. I'll know in a few days just how detached I really am.

As far as the boundaries...well, he asked me to do a lot to help him get settled in his new place, including accepting delivery of his new couch. I told him no, because if he wanted to be separated then we needed to be really separated. I also told him I didn't want to be his friend while he was still in contact with OW. I like him, and he seems to want to draw a little closer, and it's hard for me to know how close to let him get without bending on the OW line or letting him slip into thinking of me as a resource (he really doesn't have much of a social network in town). I don't know how to be just friendly enough for him to find me attractive and not so friendly that we slide over that line into me behaving like a wife again. I don't know if he still contacts her or not.

Have I written enough for today? Thank you, Obi-Wan.

[Maybell]

That post was a little strongly worded. It is probably more accurate to say that although the last 2-3 years have been not very good at all, and the years before that were sometimes good and sometimes a disappointment, a fair amount of the disappointment was a combination of poor skills and unreasonable expectations on both sides. Add way too much upheaval and the crash was probably inevitable.

I do like him, love him, and miss our potential as a couple. I can't think of what it's been like to live with him the last few years and want him home, though.

I have decided that if he asks again then I will have dinner with him, in the interest of our future as co-parents. No expectations. Just somebody I will always know.

As an aside... I am enjoying our vacation but my mom drives me slightly crazy. She SO sweats the small stuff. Years ago I made a specific effort to not be like that, but I find myself wondering how many other of her unhealthy habits I have adopted without noticing. She is enormously critical and can be overbearing. She isn't above bullying people. She doesn't listen well at all. She thinks she's always right but she is a shallow thinker. Her world is very small and everyone is out to get her.

After almost a week of living with her and chafing against it I can't help but wonder... How much is this what I'm like???

[claire7]

Maybell,

I respect your courage and insight so much, so please take this as constructive. You may be more like your mom than you thought-- if only because the things that drive us batty in others are often the things we don't like about ourselves.

I am, sadly, way more like my mom than I should be. I battle against that daily, and see it much more clearly now, especially now that I have a kid.

But the amazing, powerful and hopeful thing we have going for us, which our moms don't seem to have, is that we are self-reflective and willing and able to change.

(I wonder-- is it an age thing? Was my mom more self-reflective when she was younger??)

[Maybell]

I know I'm probably more like her than I want to be. I've spent 20+ years watching myself to try to avoid being ungenerous, "should ing" myself and the world, letting go of small irritations, accepting people as I find them. I find myself more like her in my smallest ways -- sometimes when I parent for example, reflexive things that it can take me a while to recognize.

It's the last morning of our vacation. I'm feeling sad and tired. I don't want to go home to my destroyed marriage. I don't want to face possibly losing my house, figuring out how to get a job & then juggling it with caring for my kids. I don't want to have to figure out how to keep my husband at arms length because I'm afraid of being hurt again (and again and again). I don't want to go back to IC and be counseled on letting go of a dead relationship. I don't want this to be how my life has turned out after all my hard work and sacrifice for what I thought was my husband's happiness. I want to be loved and cared for and enjoyed.